Battle For The Greenest: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI Knockdown

I knew it! When I read this article early this morning on Edmunds I knew that Turbospyder would submit this. Anything with a negative view of Asian car manufacturers and a positive view of German ones has him salivating. This is too funny! I am interested to see how the 2010 model compares...although I would probably still buy the VW before the Prius.

the average mpg in the TDI seems a bit low.....independant tests have shown far better mpg than that

The mpg for Prius seem exceptionally low also.

I bet if you went aftermarket and got rid of all the emissions equipment and allowed the car to breathe there would be a good jump in mpg and hp as well.

sailor, Sadly most people in USA are too stupid to understand the complexities of being responsible for their own actions. All they know is "the sticker said 30mpg hwy and Im upset because I drive 95mph on the hwy and get 23mpg". In any event, the people who test these cars routinely kick the crap out of them, and often times, there is no mileage on the test cars (so the engines are not broken in). A neighbor of mine was getting 37-38mpg on the hwy with a Saturn Vue -- only thing is, he parks the cruise control at 55mph and sits in the right lane (which is totally dangerous but still). As for your BMW 530d getting 47mpg (5 l/100km)..... damn.... thats awesome.

Emissions regulations kill diesel sales here in USA. Also, the fact that our moronic govt doesn't tax gasoline at all (18 cents/gallon... cmon now) leads to higher diesel prices that people dont want to pay. Lets see here..... raise the gasoline tax to $0.50 a gallon and gas is slightly more than diesel. ...... hmmmm...

____ say sailor, aren't you in the netherlands? Isn't it late over there right now?

you're soooooooo stupid and ditsy. Get off the site already. If your profile pic is your real picture, then you're old enough to remember REAL pollution... of course Im sure you weren't paying attention to little things like that when you were in high school. Lord knows you had important "activities" to attend to.

diesel is slow? What planet are you on? What are you going to tell me next, GM & Ford are making cars no one wants to buy and if they built the Prius they would be in great shape right now? HA, just another bobblehead... we'd better be careful though, the mainstream media might get ahold of you and put you on TV.

LexusBeautyQueen, you are like soooooooooooo wrong! The Jetta is like infinity times better than the Toyota, simply because it's German, and thus fabulous!

Only 3mpg more, yes, but diesel fuel is INFERIOR to petrol in a case of carbon dioxide emission, mpg is mistaking in that case:............Prius = 39mpg petrol = 6.02 litres per 100 kilometres = 138 grams of CO2 per 1 kilometre or 0.49 Ib of CO2 per mile------------- Jetta TDI = 36mpg diesel = 6.5 litres per 100 kilometres = 172 grams of CO2 per 1 kilometre or 0.61 Ib of CO2 per mile..................... Kilograms of CO2 emission per litre of burned diesel - 2.63 and petrol - 2.3 : [http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/business/envrp/pdf/envrpgas-annexes.pdf]...................So the Jetta TDI is emmiting a whopping 25% CO2 more than Prius and that's actually becouse it needs 25% more energy than Prius. And Jetta TDI is emitting more NOx, HC and particle matter which aren't healthy:"In fact, long-term exposure to diesel exhaust particles poses the highest cancer risk of any toxic air contaminant evaluated by OEHHA."........[http://www.oehha.org/public_info/facts/dieselfacts.html]

no one cares about CO2, auto emissions account for 10-15% of all GHG emissions. Its estimated that deforestation of the rainforests account for 30%+ of the excess of GHG in the atmosphere. Auto emissions are just something that eco-nazis cling to b/c they hate people who like their cars and enjoy driving.

TurboSpyder, in German car magazines diesels definitely emit less CO2, and ONLY THERE, autoexpress is subsidiary of autobild...........................................And here what scientist have to say about mileage of diesel cars compared to petrol:"When evaluating a diesel vehicle’s impact on oil dependence, consumers should adjust the listed fuel economy downward about 20 percent before comparing it with a gasoline vehicle."[http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/technologies_and_fuels/gasoline_and_diesel/the-diesel-dilemma-diesels.html]

43k USD Lexus RX450h: 0-90mph 13,5sec, passing 45-65mph 3,3sec, 23 MPG, 0.72 lb/mile CO2 ||| 51k USD BMW X5 xDrive 35d twin-turbo: 0-90mph 15,2sec, passing 45-65mpg 3,7sec, 22 MPG, 1.06 lb/mile ||| 49k USD Mercedes ML 320 CDI BlueTEC: 0-90mpg 18,5sec, passing 45-65mph 4,4sec, 21,6 MPG, 1.09 lb/mile CO2 ||| 42k USD Volkswagen Touareg TDI: 0-90mph 18,2sec, passing 45-65mph 4,4 sec, 20,5 MPG, 1.12 lb/mile CO2. ||| This brilliantly prove how pathetic diesels really are when compared to modern hybrids. Diesels are MUCH SLOWER, more dangerous (longer passing time), much less efficient (don't forget to divide diesel MPG by 1,12), much more polluting and unnecessary complicated (variable vane turbocharger, ultra-high pressure fuel injection, particulate filter, AdBlue injection, double-mass flywheel, heavy engine block, heavy drivetrain). Source: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/112_0904_diesel_hybrid_suv_comparison/specs.html

That Gov't site talks about the hazards of diesel particulates from old school busses. The Jetta TDI has a particulate filter, so that it, emits LESS particulates than the Prius, which generates (a small amount of) soot until it warms up like any vehicle burning liquid fuels without a particulate filter (due to poor atomization, etc. ... but you aren't interested in the facts anyway, so why bother).
And if you're putting the TDI because you're another Toyota fan-boy, then wakeup and realize that Toyota is one of the largest manufacturers of diesel vehicles in the world. I've been back from Asia for less than a week after spending 3 weeks chauffeured around in turbo-diesel Toyota limousines (which are Commuter Vans over there)

25% more? Can you document this? What are your sources? You make me laugh with your ridiculous conspiracy theories and made up chemical sciences. You do realize that only a certain amount of gasoline and a certain amount of diesel is extractable from a barrel of oil don't you? You cant change the ratios on a whim you know. Not only that, you can make diesel out of just about anything, making it a far more versatile fuel than gasoline (or its current alternatives --- ethanol ---).

Huu: comparing prices of a Prius to a VW with rear air bags?
Huh?
VW comes with safety features that aren't even available on the Toyota.
The rear air-bags are on option on the VW, but not available at all on the Toyota.
They bump the air-bags from 6 to 8, whereas the Toyota has 4.
The VW has 4-wheel independent suspension and 4-wheel disc brakes to help avoid accidents, ... neither of which is available on the Prius at any price.
When it comes to safety, a loaded Toyota usually matches a base-level VW. Not to mention that if you ditched the electric motor, batteries and controllers, the VW would be about 1000 pounds heavier than the Prius, and all that difference is thicker steel everywhere, saving your a$$ when you get T-boned by a gas-guzzling Toyota Sequoia ... another environmental disaster on wheels.

Federal Gas tax is 18.4 cents / gallon, federal diese tax is 24.4 cents / gallon. Your liberal, anti-big business, "theyre out to get us mann!!" attitude is quite funny. Toyota is INCREDIBLY good at marketing, the Prius has clogged the brains of the vast majority of the people in the USA. Kudos to Toyota, by not putting a small, efficient gasoline (direct injection) engine with a 6spd, they are able to convince the stupid that hybrids are the only way to get better fuel economy. What makes me laugh, is that the reason a diesel vehicle is so goddamn expensive is because liberal treehugging ecoterrorists demanded that their goddamn hitler-esque cronies legislate ultra, super duper, squeaky amazing clean emissions, instead of just really clean emissions. This means Particulate filters (very expensive), SCR systems, DOC's, decreased fuel economy, etc. So, thanks to over-regulation and abject retardation of eco-nazis, we (society) focus on the extremes instead of a methodical, logical solution (fix engine out emissions FIRST, then apply crazy aftertreatment).

Also, I hope everyone realizes how silly this whole diesel vs hybrid debate is. Eventually, Spark Ignition, Compression Ignition, & hybrid/electric are all going to be meshed into one system. An HCCI full parallel or even a Chevy Volt with an HCCI Range Extended is the future. Once the emissions systems of diesel and HCCI controls systems are perfected, we will all look back at these trivial comparisons the way Edison & Westinhouse battled out AC vs DC (which oddly enough is coming back to the forefront of the energy debate).

From a barrel of crude oil 19,15 gallons of gasoline and 9,21 gallons of diesels are refined so it takes twice as much (100% more) crude oil to make the same amount of diesel (Source#1). ||| Diesel contains 1,12 times more energy then gasoline (Source#2). Mileage of the Jetta TDI has to be divided by 1,12 then to be comparable with the Prius. This yields 32 (normalized) MPG of the Jetta and 39 MPG of the Prius. ||| Prius has beaten EIGHT HUNDRED cars in the ADAC Ecotest, scoring #1 in harmful and cancerous emissions test and overall pollution + CO2 test. Diesels occupy the lower bottom end of the list. (Source#3) ||| Well-to-wheel entire greenhouse gas emissions for diesels and petrol engines are equal, there's no environmental benefit in using the diesel. (Source#4) Meanwhile, hybrids are 30% more efficient than standard petrol engines that were used as reference in this research. Conclude for yourself. ||| Lung cancer is the leading cancer killer, in 95% incurable and leads to painful and slow death. That's why California enforced strong emission regulations. Meanwhile idiots in Europe only just (in 2009) enforced particulate filters by introducing EURO 5 norm. ||| All the industry runs diesel. Buying diesel cars will cause price pressure on this fuel which will cause price increases. See the EU for details. Diesel is now on par with regular there. Diesels stopped making sense but people there can only look at the nominal fuel consumption, nothing else. |||||||| Source #1: http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/non-renewable/oil.html#Howused ||| Source#2: http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/science/energy_calculator.html#unitsexplained ||| Source#3: http://www.adac.de/Tests/Autotest/Ecotest/default.asp?Quereinstieg=EcoTest&TL=2 ||| Source#4: http://dataservice.eea.europa.eu/atlas/viewdata/viewpub.asp?id=2111

What to do with diesel? It's simple, leave it to the industry where it belongs. Every lorry, bus, coach, generator, construction equipment, diesel train runs diesel. You're from Europe so you know best how price pressure on it (partially due to enforced conversion at refineries) made diesel on par with regular gasoline now while a few years ago it was much cheaper, clearly showing there's no surplus of this fuel, rather deficit (BTW, such low diesel prices in the EU actually triggered diesel cars wave there). Companies are not charity institutions, they'll simply transfer additional fuel expenses on their customers (= you) which will result in serious price increase in virtually every sector. ||| I know what you mean by saying it takes more energy to refine gasoline but I'd argue with seeing it this way. It's one and the same process of refining. You can't stop it when getting diesel cause you'll then be left with useless unrefined remainder crude. Even if you wanted to gain more diesel from it, finishing the refining would most likely be necessary. That's why hybrids are so important. They allow consumption of petrol gained in a straightaway process in the most efficient and least harmful way, without disturbing economy-wide price balance. And they prepare ground for plug-in hybrids. ||| There's more. Diesels emit largest amounts of cancerous pollution in cities where population density easily surpasses > 1000 person per square km. Hybrids meanwhile minimize pollution there which means they minimize citizens' exposition to harmful substances. Why editors never mention this? Are they too mentally challenged to understand such ruthlessly simple basics? Someone bribes them to promote diesels? Or maybe those in Europe just hate hybrids (since these cars are mostly made in Asia) so they conceal hard facts suggesting such cars are the best option currently widely available? Anyway, I just hope Europeans will never pay the price of their shallow reasoning. EURO 5 (enforcing particulate filters) is valid just from now which is just ridiculous. EURO 6 (more or less equal to California emissions standards valid since a very long time) will be valid in FIVE years, in 2014. Clearly, European automotive industry dictates it, delaying stringent emission regulations as much as they can. Well, it helps them making more money. Who cares about public health?

Ahh downtoearth, your ability to spin facts is quite amazing. Eitherway, maybe your name should be "headupass" instead of "downtoearth".

1. Your claim about gasoline engines emitting 25% of PM of unfiltered diesels is non-accurate and exaggerated. See this presentation, slide 3 where levels are actually measured:

http://www.aqmd.gov/tao/Ultrafine_Presentations/Session6_5_MattiMaricq.pdf

DPF diesels emit more PM in terms of mass and, worse though, in some cases more in terms of number of particles (which means they are smaller, hence pose more health risks) than port injection petrol engines.

The problem starts with direct injection petrol engines which in many cases double (not quadruple, as you claimed) PM emissions both in terms of mass and particle number. But hybrids have only port injection.

That's why Prius scored 50 out of 50 points in ADAC EcoTest for emissions (PM+NOx). Best diesels with DPF and AdBlue injection (BMW BluePerformance, MB BlueTEC) scored 46/50. Most popular in Europe the Passat 2.0 TDI DPF scored 41/50, the slightly retuned version of this engine in a Skoda Super 2.0 TDI DPF scored 43/50. Interestingly, some DI petrol engines scored 50/50 as well which may mean that PM emissions can be harnessed by means of proper engineering and programming. VW AG FSI were among these engines.

Whether petrol engines will be equipped with PF remains to be seen. For me, the more emission control equipment, the better.

2. NOx emissions are proven to be harmful, partially due to substances created when NOx are released into the environment:
http://www.epa.gov/airprogm/oar/urbanair/nox/hlth.html
http://www.epa.gov/air/urbanair/nox/noxfldr.pdf

3. Crude refining is a single process and splitting it after getting diesel makes no economical sense thus you can't say it takes more energy to refine petrol (and kerosene). If you stop the refinement after draining diesel, the unrefined remainder will be useless and its energy content will exceed those gained as diesel by more than three times and will be lost.

4. I'm all about swapping lorries for ships, especially in form of currently nearly dead intercontinental river shipping. This can be achieved by increasing fuel taxation/introducing carbon taxes though without the need of apparently wasteful, balance-disturbing and likely harmful for public health dieselification of passanger cars.

5. Despite scientifically proven benefits of using DPF (90%+ PM reductions are true), the leading European carmaker Volkswagen still feels happy offering cars without it. We have 11th of February 2009 today, the EURO 5 norm is soon to be valid and despite all that below are examples of today's offerings of Volkswagen cars in Germany and Denmark. Half of Polo diesels in Germany have no DPF:

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7488/vwdeao3.png

and 3 out of 5 Golf Variant TDI have no DPF either:

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9166/vwdkrp7.png

Both are small/compact cars which are likely to be used in cities: areas of highest population density. These diesels utilize pump-unit injectors (instead of a common rail

[...] which further increases pollution. ADAC EcoTest score for Polo TDI without DPF is 35/50 and Golf 1.9 TDI without DPF is 33/50 (diesels of this type were kicked out of the USA at least 5 years ago). Compare those to 50/50 for the Prius.

Well, at the end of the day these are just your lungs. Who cares.


More about PM matter in gasoline engines can be read here:
http://bznotes.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/soot-emissions-from-gasoline-direct-injectin-gdi-engines/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYH/is_14_5/ai_76908163

RE: "From a barrel of crude oil 19,15 gallons of gasoline and 9,21 gallons of diesels are refined so it takes twice as much (100% more) crude oil to make the same amount of diesel"

This is SO STUPID it is beyond comprehension.
Check this:
For every 100 pounds of flour that my baker buys, he uses 90% of it for bread, and only 10% for cakes.
Therefore, cake uses 9x as much raw flour to make as bread! Same completely idiotic argument!!
I'm surprised you can operate a computer.

How's this: For every yard of material used by a local seamstres, she makes over 100 shirts for every pair of panties. Therefore, panties use 100x as much material as shirts do!

Guess what, the diesel and gasoline aren't produced from the same material: Some is used for gas, some for diesel, in a ratio set by the oil-company based on what they want to sell, and related to the configuration of the refinery process.
But it takes brain cells to understand, so I won't waste my time with you Prius-hugging types.

Here's a fact: [b] the Guinness record for the vehicle using the least fuel to travel through the 48 contiguous states is ... a Prius, right?
Sorry, but a Prius will never hit the 70 miles-per-US-gallon achieved on some tanks by the bone-stock 2009 Jetta TDI that holds the record. [/b]
(It averaged over 58 MPG US, something that no other car sold in the US can match)
And if that Jetta was driven the 30k miles or so that it takes to break-in a VW engine, it would use between 3% and 5% LESS fuel to repeat the task.
(That figure taken the experience of dozens of TDI owners that I know ... it takes about 50,000 kms to hit max mileage in a TDI)

So PLEASE spend your time researching something useful, like the thousands of people contracting cancer and babies born with deformities yearly near the mines and smelters that produce the rare and toxic metals needed to produce a Prius that aren't needed in significant amounts in any other gas or diesel-powered car.

Crappy, the difference between you and I is that I don't like to see anyone lose...I pity you.

Crappy, how am I anti-American? What proof do you have? Oh, that's right you just make things up and talk out of your ass. Listen, I've been on this site for quite a few years and have seen your type come and go. Many veterans here would back me up that I'm not Anti-American. I don't even recall the last negative comment I made about American cars. However, I do know that you're racist. Also, you are the type of person that thinks that if you like one thing, you can't like another at the same time. Try being more of an open person, it would make you a better human.

As a new Prius will be coming out in 2010, Volkswagen's victory might be short-lived.

I guess you won't be buying a car in a few decades.
Because the future is serial-electric hybrids with tiny diesel-powered engines for charging the batteries.
Almost every car-maker on the planet has a program working on these for the "long-term" solution to maximizing mileage.

Desiel's only competition is natural gas (compressed) where its readily available. Gasoline is so last millennium!

"Great job LexusBeautyQueen" When was the last time anybody seen a VW hybrid commercial? Anyway, in this case it's what's in a name. WHO'S NUMBER ONE?

TurboSpyder, your recycling of one and the same rigged test where biased and jealous British journalists must have driven the Prius very hard (especially braking hard to diminish the recovery braking feature) to skew its fuel economy has started to be pathetic a long time ago. Let me crush your evidence once and forever.

AutoExpress claims Prius II returns 41.5 UK-MPG ~= 34.55 US-MPG

Meanwhile (as for today when sources were accessed):

582 Prius II drivers from Germany get on AVERAGE 5,23 l/100 ~= 45 US-MPG [1]

635 Prius II from the USA get on AVERAGE 46-48 US=MPG [2]

In all Edmunds tests of Prius II the car returned numbers withing 40-50 US-MPG [3]

So I have 1217 witnesses and four professional tests testifying (in a dead consistent manner, if you haven't noticed) that AutoExpress test is just a steaming pile of British jealous dung. 1221 against 1. Any questions?

And if you want to compare these figures with what diesels return, don't forget the energy-density normalization coefficient. It is somewhere between 1,09-1,12. And it works against diesels.

And stop claiming it takes more energy to refine petrol. It's a false statement. Read my comments above. It is one single process of refining crude which can't be split, only you get diesel fuel before you reach gasoline/kerosene/LPG fuels. If you stop when getting diesel only, at least three time more energy than you got in it will be wasted in the unrefined (thus useless) reminder which can't be used either in cars or in planes. Maybe in a wood-burning stove only it would work.

Regarding biofuels, it is indeed better to make biodiesel but Energy Return On Energy Invested (EROEI) indicator for biodiesel is 2. If you thing that's a lot, bear in mind that fuels from crude oil that started our civilization as we know it had once the EROEI of 100. Educate yourself about the topic using this article
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3810
and this table:
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Table_1.PNG

[1] http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebersicht/49-Toyota/439-Prius.html?constyear_s=2004&constyear_e=2008
[2] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList2&make=Toyota&model=Prius
[3] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/ViewModelDetail/make=Toyota/model=Prius

1. If you claim Jetta is heavier and we need to compensate for this, it means you don't understand basic characteristics of engines. Diesels are always gonna be heavier than competing petrol cars, and apparently heavier than hybrids. It's a disadvantage diesels comes with as standard. You may not understand why nor accept it, but it doesn't matter. It's an indisputable fact.

2. AutoExpress test was rigged in the shittiest way possible. I proved it by providing 1217 examples testifying against it. You obviously didn't comment on that because this would prove how badly you lost.

3. What's more pathetic, AutoExpress compared the AUTOMATIC Prius with a MANUAL Clubman D. Clearly it proved how much they wanted to cheat their readers and how much credibility they lost.

4. What's not even pathetic but just turdy, AutoExpress compared cars of completely different sizes. Mini Clubman D wheelbase is 2547 mm while Prius is 2700 mm. Clubman length is 3945 mm while Prius is 4450 mm. It's almost like comparing Volkswagen Polo vs Volkswagen Passat, cars are two classes apart. Now we see why the Clubman is lighter than the Prius: it's just a midget's fart.

Since I can't find the test of an automatic Mini Clubman D, I'll use ECE numbers:

Toyota Prius II:
combined consumption: 4,3 l/100 km [1]
CO2-Emission: 104 g/km [1]
consumption in city traffic: 5 l/100 km [1]

Mini Clubman D automatic:
combined consumption: 5,1 l/100km [2]
CO2-Emission 136 g/km [2]
consumption in city traffic: 6,6 l/100 km [2]

So the smaller Mini Clubman D, despite being available with latest diesel fuel saving technology introduced by BMW in 2008, loses in EVERY WAY with the larger Toyota Prius hybrid, introduced in 2004. Moreover, it poses more health risk in town where population density is often higher than 1000 persons/km2.

And now the final hit proving Mini Clubman D is an epic failure of diesel "eco" technology. ADAC EcoTest awarded the 2004 Prius with 50 out of 50 points for minimizing health-risky, carcinogenic emissions. The 2008 Mini Clubman D scored 37 out of 50. [3] Any questions?

You can claim higher energy density is an inherent advantage of diesel over gasoline. But then I'll claim that it requires TWICE LESS crude oil to make a gallon/liter of gasoline than it takes to make the same volume of diesel. And that's an inherent advantage of gasoline over diesel.

By swapping Prii with Clubman Ds you'll increase your dependence on imported foreign oil TWICE.

To sum up - the Mini Clubman D automatic with start-stop and braking energy recovery is:
- much smaller than Prius
- despite that, much less economical
- much more carcinogenic, especially in cities where huge population is exposed at risk
- burns through fossil fuels twice as fast as the Prius
- as quick as Prius (0-100 in 10.9 sec) despite being so much smaller and lighter

The newest BMW diesel technology = epic failure.

Now it's clear why Germans are trying to catch up, introd

Current prices locally in Vancouver, BC (20 minutes from the US border):
Regular gas: 97 cents/litre
Mid-grade: $1.03 /litre
Premium: $1.06
Diesel: 92 cents/litre (ultra-low sulphur or ULSD)
Taxes are identical on all of the above.

This is at CHEVRON or SHELL or wherever. The same companies, from the same gas as the stations across the border that are charging a premium for diesel.

The US is the ONLY country in the world charging more for diesel, and they've only done it for a couple of years out of a century of gas sales.
So, what has changed in the US that hasn't changed for the same companies selling the same product literally blocks away?????

And there have been no new refineries in the US since the 1970s, so the process hasn't changed at all.
Nobody has ever given a plausible explanation for why diesel that cost less than gas 5 years ago now costs more, other than the US companies are scared sh$$less that everyone will buy a more efficient diesel vehicle and their sales will drop.

Face it, the only things driving ridiculous diesel prices are "maximizing shareholder value" (profits) and price fixing.