SUV Shootout Diesel vs Hybrid, Who Has The Guts AND The Green?

The results from the article:

1ST PLACE:
VOLKSWAGEN TOUAREG TDI
Offers the most traditional SUV functionality of the bunch, with stellar looks and just the right combination of high-tech and off-road features.

2ND PLACE:
LEXUS RX 450H
Perfect for the iPhone-loving city-stomper, but if long/heavy hauls and more than light off-roading figure into the equation, you'll find it too compromised.

3RD PLACE:
MERCEDES-BENZ ML320 BLUETEC
Reassuringly solid on-road and off, but there's no spark or sizzle to the one that started this genre.

4TH PLACE:
BMW X5 XDRIVE 35D
Best diesel mileage and clearly the driver's choice but stratospheric cost and narrow bandwidth bar it from the podium.

so...touareg wins because it is MORE like a traditional SUV? aren't these cars supposed to feel like CARS with more cargo and a little more off road capability? Just one reason why I don't pay attention to these comparos

Is it surprising? Even though the Lexus gets the best overall fuel economy, and had the best technology features, costs less, has a better warranty, has much better reliability, it still came in second to the VW?
Come on.

I have yet to see any of these vehicles towing something.
The VW (1st generation) was observed towing a hotdog cart though.

The T-Reg is not that much more than the Lexus and in the long run will cost much less to maintain.
Remember when it said that the Lexus had 36 miles left on the tank and the T-Reg was still half way through???

For the intended audience, and the way that most of these SUVs will really be used, the Lexus is hard to beat.

Did you read the article, David999?

In mixed driving the Lexus gets the best overall fuel economy (not by much though) but in terms of range it falls tremendously short which means gassing up often.

Second, it is the NEWEST car in this group, of course it will have the most advanced technology. Big deal. When the ML or X5 or Touareg get a redesign the RX will fall behind.

Oh, and many people who use these cars tow something. They tow their boats, they tow a mobile home etc. The RX can't do that. It can only tow light payloads. A big drawback for someone who wants to go out into the wilderness for a week or two. Which brings me to my last point. The RX was never made for off-roading or lengthy excursions. It's a pure city car (especially the hybrid) and shouldn't even be classified as an "SUV".

TurboSpyder, you forgot about acceleration and power figures:
0-60
2009 BMW X5 xDrive 35d: 6.7
2010 Lexus RX 450h: 6.4 (Best by 1.7sec)
2009 Mercedes- Benz ML320 BlueTEC: 8.1
2009 Volkswagen Touareg TDI: 7.8

Power

2009 BMW X5 xDrive 35d: 265hp
2010 Lexus RX 450h: 295hp (better by 85hp)
2009 Mercedes- Benz ML320 BlueTEC: 210hp
2009 Volkswagen Touareg TDI: 225hp

And about CO2 emission:

2009 BMW X5 xDrive 35d: 1.06 lb/mile
2010 Lexus RX 450h: 0.72 lb/mile (Best by ~35%)
2009 Mercedes- Benz ML320 BlueTEC: 1.09 lb/mile
2009 Volkswagen Touareg TDI: 1.12 lb/mile

And here what scientist have to say about mileage of diesel cars compared to petrol:"When evaluating a diesel vehicle’s impact on oil dependence, consumers should adjust the listed fuel economy downward about 20 percent before comparing it with a gasoline vehicle.":

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/technologies_and_fuels/gasoline_and_diesel/the-diesel-dilemma-diesels.html

And:"For heat-trapping gas emissions, a diesel vehicle's fuel economy should be adjusted downward about 15 percent"

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/dieseldilemma_fullreport.pdf

That's why Lexus hybrid has only 1mpg better fuel economy while having 35% lower CO2 emission.

TurboSpyder, 300 Ib is as much as two small passangers, they're not in the class but they're almost the same weight.

the class --> the same class

Let's sum up then.

Hybrid synergy drive proved to be THIRTY FIVE percent more energy efficient (fuel carbon content thus CO2 emissions are proportional to fuel energy density) and FASTER in terms of both 0-60 and in gear acceleration than all the diesels, including possibly the best automotive diesel on Earth, the twin turbocharged BMW engine.

This is a crushing victory for the hybrid and a proof how much more efficient hybrids really are.

What's more, Lexus is particularly more efficient in cities where population density is the highest and largest numbers of people are exposed to health hazard. So in the most fragile areas where minimizing pollution is most crucial, it just beats diesels to death. What's the point of having much more toxic exhaust gases in cities (diesels) when we can have much less (hybrids)?

Anyone who complains about diesel SUVs weighting more proves he hasn't got the slightest idea about technical aspects of diesels which are always heavier. Reasons are obvious for those who know what they speak about (hint: power transmitted at much lower revs + higher compression, hence heavier drivetrain and engine components).

Engines in both Touareg TDI and X5 3.0sd were modified just days ago in order to meet stringent American emission regulations. So they could improve fuel economy. Yet hybrid proved 35% better.

These SUVs are luxury limos on stilts. Virtually no one does serious off-roading with these vehicles for the same reasons virtually no one goes off-road in a Mercedes S-class.

lol someone can't read. The only reason those diesels got a longer cruising range is because of their way oversized fuel tanks despite their worse fuel efficiency. Read before you post.

Let's see... Lexus's 19.2 gal vs. the VW's 26.4 gal tank. I think any normal person would call that a big difference. You might be "special" though.

And gotta love your "how about"'s. How about people just stop driving in cities and stop commuting in traffic so that they can always get that "highway mileage"? Do you live on this planet?

Well, I hope I can say that these editors are absolutely hypocritical.
I'm not saying that they're trying their best to avoid a Lexus as a winner (maybe because of their occasional bad reputations) to get more readers, but that might be one of the major reasons that the Lexus didn't win.

I mean..., let's all think about it. When was the last time Motor Trend ever cared for off-road capabilities for their SUV surveys?!?!?!
(Motor Trend is where I first saw this article a few weeks back, and I'm sorry to hear that, Monk.)

abcd

The C02 figures you posted are not realistic. They are based on the EPA figures and not the real life fuel economy that Motor Trend achieved. For them to be correct the RX450h has to get 35% better fuel economy than the ML320 Bluetec, but in this test it only got 6% better fuel economy.

Based on the fuel economy achieved in the test the RX450h C02 emissions would be .85 pound per mile. This is because the RX got worse fuel economy than the EPA estimates that are used in finding this figure. The C02 for the ML 320 Bluetec would be only 1 pound per mile because it got better mpg than the EPA estimates. Thus making it less than 15% better (depending which diesel SUV you compare it to)

chewy:

> The C02 figures you posted are not realistic. They are based on the
> EPA figures and not the real life fuel economy that Motor Trend
> achieved.

You're right. Honestly I'm surprised Motor Trend editors didn't perform those trivial calculations. Anyway, let's run the numbers:

CO2 emissions from a gallon of gasoline = 19.4 pounds/gallon [1]
CO2 emissions from a gallon of diesel = 22.2 pounds/gallon [1]

MT fuel economy:
Lexus RX400h: 23.0 mpg -> 19.4/23 ~= 0.843 lb CO2/mile
BMW X5 xDrive 35d: 22.0 mpg -> 22.2/22 ~= 1.009 lb CO2/mile
ML 320 CDI: 21.6 mpg -> 22.2/21.6 ~= 1.02 lb CO2/mile
Touareg TDI: 20.5 mpg -> 22.2/20.5 ~= 1.083 lb CO2/mile

Since fuel carbon content thus CO2 emissions from burning it are proportional to its energy density/heating value, we can calculate how energy efficiencies of those cars stack up. Lexus is the benchmark since it's the most energy efficient, so:

BMW X5 xDrive 35d: (1.009 - 0.843) / 0.843 * 100 ~= 19,7%
ML 320 CDI: (1.02 - 0.843) / 0.843 * 100 ~= 21%
Touareg TDI: (1.083 - 0.843) / 0.843 * 100 ~= 28,5%

Thus, in term of fuel efficiency (a.k.a tank-to-wheel efficiency), BMW is 19,7%, Mercedes is 21% and the VW is 28,5% less efficient than the Lexus RX450h hybrid.

How about overall efficiency in burning fossil fuels, also known as well-to-wheel efficiency, taking all the crude extraction, refining and delivery into account (not only MPG observed in cars)?

Quoting what the panel of 35 experts on the subject have to say (page 60, figure 4.2-1 and 4.2-2 of [2]), in European conditions (unfortunately I haven't found similar data for the U.S) it takes 0.14 unit of energy to deliver a unit of energy as gasoline and 0.16 (1.143 times more or 14,3% more) unit of energy to deliver a unit of energy as diesel. This is so called well-to-tank efficiency.

Thus, to calculate how much better the hybrid in terms of overall well-to-wheel efficiency is, the CO2 emissions results for diesel SUVs simply need to be multiplied by 1.14. Let's recalculate. In terms of burning through fossil fuels...

BMW X5 xDrive 35d: (1.009*1.14 - 0.843) / 0.843 * 100 ~= 36,4%
ML 320 CDI: (1.02*1.14 - 0.843) / 0.843 * 100 ~= 38%
Touareg TDI: (1.083*1.14 - 0.843) / 0.843 * 100 ~= 46%

...the diesel BMW is 36,4%, Mercedes is 38% and VW is 46% less efficient than the Lexus RX450h.

And all those cars are significantly slower than the hybrid SUV. In terms of 0-60 times, Volkswagen Touareg TDI and the Mercedes ML 320 CDI are as much slower than the Lexus RX450h as the RX450h itself is slower than the BMW 335i coupe.

Now you know why the #1 carmaker in the world has gone hybrid. Now you also know why Europeans were wrong going diesel.

Some people claimed RX450h is not a SUV. Well, Society of Automotive Engineers, Insurance Institute for Highway Safety and Motor Trend disagree with you, classifying all cars compared (RX450h included) as a midsize crossover luxury SUVs.


[1] E

[1] Emission Facts: Average Carbon Dioxide Emissions Resulting from Gasoline and Diesel Fuel: http://www.epa.gov/OMS/climate/420f05001.htm

[2] R Edwards et all, "WELL-TO-WHEELS ANALYSIS OF FUTURE AUTOMOTIVE FUELS AND POWERTRAINS IN THE EUROPEAN CONTEXT", 2006: http://www.co2star.eu/publications/Well_to_Tank_Report_EU.pdf

nice, they censored my previous comment

All SUVs in this comparison are good. I suppose the review can be turned and twisted and the results just don't won't matter. Each SUV has their appeal. End of story.

If we go by ______, the results will most likely be like this:

Comfort
1-2) Mercedes / Lexus
3) VW
4) BMW

Handling
1) BMW
2) Mercedes
3) VW
4) Lexus

Urban Fuel Economy
1) Lexus
2) BMW
3-4) Mercedes / VW

Rural Fuel Economy
1) BMW
2) Mercedes
3) Volkswagen
4) Lexus

Get my point?

The BMW and the Merc both got stuck in the snow during the test.

"The BMW and the Merc both got stuck in the snow during the test."


I wonder how the Lexus RX would have tackled the same situation...

Except for rural Fuel economy, the Lexus should be rated at the top with BMW, according to EPA estimates they are the same, overall mixed Lexus is still higher.

The Lexus and VW drove in the same areas for the test and did not get stuck in the snow.

Nowhere in the article does it say they drove in the exact the same areas. Maybe they didn't even take the RX off-road, because they knew it wouldn't get out..

MotorTrend actually has the test on video. You can find it on youtube.

"Considering how much people hate the RX, I'm surprised it scored so high" ?????
People don't hate the Rx. It is still the best selling luxury SUV out there by a mile.

David999 doesn't waste any time getting into his usual Toyota/Lexus PR and spin. I wonder how much he gets paid by Toyota to do this all day on Autospies.

FillorKill, pointing out the truth is PR and spin?

David, your "truth" that Toyota/Lexus dominates everything and anybody isn't universal or always right.

Point out anywhere that I state Toyota/Lexus dominates everything. You are confused.

David999, reading ANY of your past comments verifies my statement. You are constantly spinning facts in an attempt to show Toyota in the best light possible. Toyota makes some great products. Just be reasonable and realize they are not the end all, be all. Plenty of other automotive firms make some great products as well. You don't always have to ride around on a high horse.

David999, most of the readers and I know it is true. People can make up their own mine, but the boosts and deboosts speak for themselves.

***own mind

You believe the deboosting system on this site?

For better or worse, the boosting system is the "voice" of the masses on autospies (or at least the voice of those fanboys with multipile log ins).

HA, Lanciaboy, aka chuckg37, again shows up with his
pro-everything-except-Lexus wisdom.

Fillorkill, You know that's not true. However, when I read your past comments on anything regarding Lexus, you always take shots at them. I have an open mind about the various marques.

I've been considering a diesel SUV for a long time now and the Mercedes-Benz ML320 Bluetec is a very seductive choice. Great gas mileage, powerful, comfortable, spacious and the towing capabilities are also impressive. What's not to like?

I will be testdriving one in two weeks, too.

what the artical fails to mention is that the RX450h is the quickest, yet the outcome is still better fuel efficiency. and not to mention a sulev rating. when it comes down to the environment, no diesel, no matter how clean, will beat a hybrid

not true at all. there are plenty of hybrids with identical EPA emission ratings as the diesels

The Lexus is in the wrong segment here. Just because it looks like an SUV, that doesnt make it one. The fact of the matter is that the Lexus does little more than a minivan and that is exactly what it is intended to be for better or worse. But I dont see owners complaining of its utility, so they must be doing something right.

Let's be honest, the argument for the Lexus is that people "don't need all that SUV stuff anyway." In that case, it is the perfect minivan that happens to look like an SUV and it should be commended for that. Some drivers want an SUV look with minivan capabilities (easy to drive, easy to park, lots of seats). After all, they're not towing a boat or going anywhere but soccer practice and Starbucks.

But let's not mix up what an SUV should be and what an SUV is. An SUV really does need to be a capable off-roader and needs to be able to tow things. There do exist people with these needs and to make sweeping claims that their needs should not be met because there aren't a lot of SUV's on Broadway with a boat behind them is such a ridiculously fallacious argument, it's hard to respond to.

I am happy that all of these vehicles exist, giving everyone a bit of what they need or simply want, no one needs a Ferrari after all. I'm also happy with the outcome of the test. The editor clearly understood that some people would be better suited with a heavy diesel SUV while others will be best suited with the Lexus.

Your right. The RX is a crossover vehicle. When The new GX or LX hybrid come out, then things like towing capacity and fuel tank size will be addressed.

Remember Crappy, at you, not with you.

The thing to remember with a hybrid (that sooooooo many people conveniently forget) is the batteries and the motors that WILL fail eventually. Has anybody here ever owned a cordless phone or a cellphone? What's the first thing to go bad on these things (if you don't drop them)? Batteries. In a few years of ownership that battery sitting under the floor of the vehicle, or the motor sitting outside in moisture, heat, and vibration will fail. Replacing these parts (after severe depreciation sets in when owners start to shun them) will cost more than the vehicle is worth. Not the same problem with a diesel. As tempting as a hybrid is, it is merely stop-gap technology. An easy way for manufacturers to claim good fuel economy. When manufacturers have found a better way to propel their vehicles they will move on leaving the owners of these vehicles high and dry. Think it won't happen? Let me refresh your memory: 8-track, betamax, laserdisc, HD DVD. Yes, these are all appliances, and not cars...that's my point exactly. You get the general idea.

Batteries in hybrids are design to withstand the entire life of a car.

First generation Prius: 342.000 miles on original batteries
http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse4.htm

Research by the U.S Department of Energy, after 160.000 miles virtually no change in hybrids fuel efficiency:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/hev/end_of_life_test_1.pdf

Ford Escape hybrid as a taxi, 300.000 miles on original batteries:
http://www.hybridcars.com/fleets/taxis-show-hybrid-battery-durability-25167.html

I was also seeking for any massive battery replacement in 1998-1999 Prii I and haven't found anything. So it seems aging does not affect hybrid drivetrain durability either.

Moreover, hybrids work in a completely different way than, say, a cordless phone or any other battery-powered device. Hybrid system avoids full discharging of the battery (to prolong its lifespan) and uses only a fraction of its capacity (so even after loosing most of the capacity the hybrid system still works as intended). That's why it can last so long.

Wow, Agent009, you are SIMPLY AMAZING...AND RIDICULOUS
I submitted this about two weeks ago....you are absolutely insane.
It's just sad that you do this.

"The new RX just put everybody on notice"

Not VW, they won.

Where did you find the rule that says you can't take an SUV on a long highway run (family trip) but only sedans and coupes. SUVs will get just as much highway trips than other cars, if not more.

For me:
Styling: German>Japanese because the RX is quite girly looking. Clear lenses combined with some really weird shiny reflectors, as well as a Toyota interior tips the balance.
Handling: I have driven the old RX and it has a cosseting ride to be sure, but steering was completely numb (It felt like a piece of wood honestly, with all the vibrations, and too much spring-like recoil when I turned the steering wheel) and the accelerator pedal was extremely jumpy. Pretty much whenever I accelerated, the front of the car bobbed up and down - the car felt like a shell. The RX is definitely reliable (as proved by tests), but it's a tool for transporting people somewhat comfortably, albeit with ZERO heart.
Mileage: I have to give it to Lexus that the RX IS the best in the city, but isn't the whole point of the car to cater to soccer moms that live in the city/suburbs anyway? Mission accomplished for Lexus. If you are looking for a vehicle that is not just a super-sized Camry, and you really need to move a lot of stuff around i.e. boat, trailer, then the Germans are your obvious pick.

The Lexus is just a jacked up glorified fat Camry.

Forget that POS :-)

I guess that's why it placed ahead of the X5 and ML...

RE: "Batteries in hybrids are design to withstand the entire life of a car.
First generation Prius: 342.000 miles on original batteries
http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse4.htm "

Exactly. 300k is very high mileage on a gas engine or Japanese car.
Yet for the owner of a Benz or VW diesel, its not even 1/2 life yet.

Hybrid owners are happier, because they have lower expectations of their vehicles than diesel-buyers. If hybrid was better (cost less to operate), you'd see every work truck, from land-scaping 1-ton to 18-wheeler converted to a gas hybrid. Fuel is their biggest operating cost.

So, hybrid fans, show me the hybrid dump-trucks, semis, etc.
I'm waiting, but I won't hold my breath!

"As for towing, has anyone noticed that none of the above vehicles comes standard with a trailer hitch?"

None of these vehicles comes standard with a trailer hitch:
Ford F-150
GMC/Chevy 1500
Ram 1500

I guess they're not made for towing either.... Get real huu! Just another lame "They dont need all that SUV stuff anyway" argument. We should just make all SUV's worthless tow vehicles right? Nobody's ever going to use it, right?!? I dont think they should build houses with fireplaces either....

I couldnt find the article you are referring to about the hill. Care to share it?

How come these mags never factor in the cost of smelting all the nickel for the hybrid battery when they determine the environmental impact! I am sure all that coal burned to smelt the nickel in the hybrid would drive the CO2/mile way above that of the deisels.