When Will We Get A Real Figure? GM And Chrysler Want $21.6 Billion MORE Tax Dollars

Not to suggest that 21.6 billion is not a lot of money, but its a tiny fraction of what we just gave the finance industry. If you want to be up-in-arms against something, that is a much more significant target.

The reason is that the consumer has complete control over the auto industry. They need us to survive. As much as I hate to admit it, we the consumers need banks to survive unless you want to live in a $10k home.

I would really question stimulus package to the states and financial industry as well. What 10-15% of the stimulus money went to the Big 3 and the rest to who? To What? You still have almost a Trillion dollars floating around out there between what Bush gave out and now Obama. Dude this is beating a dead horse and not even the right horse at that. What a witch hunt.

Ah, but the pricks of the big banks and their behavior doesn't excuse the decades of mismanagement of the big 3.

Nor does it excuse the greedy union leaders who are too dumb to back off when the carcass they've been feeding on is shrinking.

Seriously, is there anyone who thinks that within a timeframe of the next 5-10 years that any of the big 3 will be in a position to realistically compete in the marketplace? Whatever bailout they get will breed a resentment in the American people that could last a generation.

Think about what cars are currently on your list of favorites. How many (if any) American cars are on that list?

I don't wish anyone to loose their jobs, but I don't feel like supporting companies who can't seem to figure out how to support themselves.

Now tell me what you really think?

Actually when I first saw the $50 Billion in the very first request I estimated personally that it was woefully short.

The problem is GM and Chrysler at that time and probably now, had no clue how badly the consumer viewed them. Add that to the current economic meltdown hurting spending and they fall even short of these projections.

My estimate is $200 billion for the auto industry, before it is all over. With most of it going to 2 companies.

cappy- don't forget that most of this money is only going two companies, not split across an entire sector. Most of the financial bailout is being handled responsibly, but the press focuses on the bad apples.

Remember Crappy, at you, not with you.

I believe that is the point here. The focus is constantly on the big 3 like they are the scapegoat for the bailout. No one every says that we should overlook what the big 3 has done, but come on, have we seen any banking CEO's paraded in front of congress before or since the money was given out in accountability? The banks are also ill responsible. "answer" stated that " don't wish anyone to loose their jobs, but I don't feel like supporting companies who can't seem to figure out how to support themselves". Well don't the banks fall into the same arena? And what about the big bonuses AFTER the bailout was given?

My question is, why isn't Bush being paraded in front of congress for his part? His bad policies and reckless deregulation caused a lot of this in the first place.

Not true. Deregulation wasn't the reason the housing market dived. Just recently, it was determined that over a decade ago, President Clinton forced regulators to take on loans that they knew lenders could not handle. They felt that every American should have a home, so it was pushed. Congress in early 2000 was told of this but BOTH houses looked the other way. This was brought to congress also in 2005, and McCain, getting credit for something, made it clear that this runaway train was out of control. Barney Frank was one of the individuals that sided with Fanney Mae/ Freddy Mac.

If you follow that line of logic, then you can trace it back to Reaganomics. The fact is, eight years of continued deregulation is the main cause of what we have today.

Prove deregulation was the cause of the economic meltdown. On Monday morning's Today Show, Ann Curry's interview with the former president - recorded over the weekend outside a Clinton Global Initiative event in Texas - addressed Clinton's inclusion on TIME's list of the "25 People to Blame" for the global economic collapse. "Oh no," he responded, "My question to them is: Do any of them seriously believe if I had been president, and my economic team had been in place the last eight years, that this would be happening today? I think they know the answer to that: No." (See TIME's list of the 25 people to blame for the collapse)

It wasn't the cause like you say it was. " In a separate interview this past weekend with CNN, Clinton did allow that his administration could have done more to "set in motion some more formal regulation of the derivatives market".

43LE says, "If you follow that line of logic, then you can trace it back to Reaganomics. The fact is, eight years of continued deregulation is the main cause of what we have today."

Then follow this logic not mine. "In 1995 Clinton loosened housing rules by rewriting the Community Reinvestment Act, which put added pressure on banks to lend in low-income neighborhoods. It is the subject of heated political and scholarly debate whether any of these moves are to blame for our troubles, but they certainly played a role in creating a permissive lending environment." Uh this was after Reagan.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877351_1877350_1877322,00.html

http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/01/13/deregulation-financial-crisis/

You bet the banks fall into the same category.

They created a operating system that provided them wealth, while at the same time knowing full well the risks involved in the sub prime crap.

Ditto for all the local real estate agents and brokers. They all played a part in this.

All? I didnt!

jpnuss- It is a loan, but like a person making $40K a year in a $400k house, they are quickly borrowing more money than they will be able to pay out reasonably. VERY FEW companies can take on this amount of debt, in as big of a hole as they are right now and survive.

I will be pleasantly surprised to see them pay it out, but honestly they are biting off more than they can chew here.

The sad thing is Ross Perot in his short stint on the Board at GM told them this would happen and pinpointed this time frame as well. Their answer was to buy him out rather than take a hard look at the facts.

Giving a loan to somebody who is most probably not going to be able to pay you back may as well be said as giving them the money.

I knew it was only a matter of time before "UAW1" would be giving us his excuses why we need to continue to prop up his kronies again. Tell us all again UAW1 how much we'll all benefit from giving them MORE money. I'm sure you'll want to "hear" yourself again. You are so full of yourself; you're a crazy fool if you ever think the Big 3 will learn form this.

Let GM file for Chapter 11 and reorganize. That's why businesses have that avenue available to them. So they can come out stronger, leaner and better managed. BTW: This bailout for the Big 3 did NOT require the company's CEO have to step down or be replaced. Do we want the CEO's who got them in this mess, continue leading those companies??

UAW1 - You're a bag of wind you blowhard. Your answer to everything is bailout, bailout & more bailout. You and your UAW buddies should build higher quality cars. Can you say: Pontiac Fiero, Chrysler Pacifica, Buick Roadmaster, Ford AeroStar, Chevy Colorado, Pontiac Aztec, Buick Lacerne and all that other crappy vehicles your UAW friends have built over the years. I've seen more inferior quality come out Detroit, than good over the last several years. It's Chapter 11 for you and your other UAW kronies who can't seem to build a car the public wants.

And we have a winner gkearns56 gives the cold hard truth. Uaw1 you need to stop drinken the union coolaide your just like my ibew buddy I think you all go to some kind left wing training camp.Gm has spent decades building crap, they even addmitted it a couple months ago, oh im sorry we built junk cars we will do better please buy more WTF.

(SIGHS) ...Im tired of this already. Whatever happens to GM, I hope Chevrolet and Cadillac end up somewhere TOGETHER and where they belong (a place to grow)...

UAW1: If for just one time you would fess up to the fact that the BIG 3 have built some of the crappiest quality cars, maybe people on this site would have a little more respect and understand your viewpoint. But like VWRULES said, you're too busy drinking that union Kool-Aid. Try just once to own up to the fact how you and your UAW members continued to build inferior quality cars for the BIG3. You said "its funny how cars from decades visit.....". That just goes to show you HOW LONG this has been going on. Here's just a few goodies (cars) on the current list for you: Pontiac Torrent (that screams with excitement); Pontiac G3 or G5; Saturn Astra; Chrysler Aspen; Chyrsler Pacifica; Chrysler Sebring; Buick Enclave; Chevy Aveo; Chevy Cobalt; Chevy Colorado; Chevy Avalanche and the rest of these current models that "take my breath away in excitement and styling". For every 1 good product your UAW kronies built ok (Malibu or Corvette) you give us 5 pieces of inferior quality crap. That definitely says you and your UAW buddies don't get it AND don't need anymore bailout money. I believe GM was back asking for more yesterday!

Wow, talk about blind hatred. Let's go through your rant here:

G3 - Essentially a Chevy Aveo (but looks nicer). For the basement price, no complaining can be done.

G5 - Small, affordable and sporty. I actually looked at one of these and was pleasantly surprised with it (i was expecting to be completely turned off by it). Also, very well priced, go look at 1yr used.

Saturn Astra - Or should I say Opel AStra, the little euro-car that everyone complains we dont have here. GM brings it here and haters (you) complain.

Chevy Aveo - See pontiac G3 - I would never want one but for $10,000.....

Chevy Cobalt - Great value, simple, and the 2.0L turbo-DI option is awesome, competing with the MazdaSpeed3 very well.

Chevy Colorado - Small utility truck... what else do you want from it.

CHevy Avalanche - Nice SUV, I never liked it until I drove one. Handled great for a vehicle of its size, whisper quiet.

Buick Enclave - Are you even serious here? This thing is critically acclaimed and highly valued by so many... hell there was a waiting list of 6 weeks for one of these (before the entire economy tanked).


In any event, you are just a bitter little man. You just don't like detroit auto, no matter what they put out. You want them to go away so you can go along your life feeling smug about yourself.

How about Hyundai? Yea, we forget about them. They made absolute crap for decades too. Then come 2005 they started putting out nice cars and everyone is head-over-heels for em. Detroit does the same (except Big3 were never as bad as Hyundai) and everyone is stuck in 1982.

Don't need any more bailout money? Funny, last I checked you don't write the checks, you aren't on the Board of GM, and you aren't employed with the US treasury so it appears to me that you aren't able to make that call. Nice try though.

OH and for the record, Ive had German, AMerican and Japanese cars. The one that was the "best" was my 93 chrysler tank/boat/hideous monster. Yea.. it was ugly and massive but got great mileage (about30mpg hwy), had the big 3.8L pushrod, never rusted, never failed, no problems whatsoever. (actually i had the replace the starter in 2006--under $100) I'll be the first to point out detroit failures but the tables have turned over the past few years, some people are just too smug & dim-witted to understand how important & essential the Big3 are.

All i can tell ya after owning many American cars they are worth nothing in 3 years after you buy em case in point my 02 Ford Escape. Hell I had to give it away and who gave me the best trade in I could find a VW dealer.Tried like heck to buy a G 6 GT but Gm Dealers very proud of em at the time then asked myself prob have same problem with it in 3 years.Now I can get a used G6 for little to nothing ,not soo proud any more even though I still think it was the Saab chassi that made me want the thing.NO HATE GM MADE THEIR BED PEOPLE NEED TO SPEND THEIR CAR DOLLAR WISELY THESE DAYS.

Neutral (AKA BIAS). YOu like UAW who know crap about cars too. Way to give your product line a RINGING endorsement; G3: "I would never want one but...."; "Great value, simple, and the 2.0L turbo-DI option is awesome" (Have you owned this car for any length of time to know its "awesome"). If it's so AWESOME why has Consumer Reports given it unreliable rating; Chevy Colorado: "Small utility truck... what else do you want from it" (Another fantastic endorsement...in other words its a piece of crap and as a buyer I guess we shouldn't expect anything from GM in terms of quality here other than "basic transportation". Way to make that sales pitch to a potential consumer. I'd sure GM would enjoy having you as their marketing spokes person. You goofball. Since when should any buyer who works hard and deserves to shop around, have to sacrifice quality, reliability or even a stylish car for your (great marketing endorsement) "what else do you want" ideology of owning a decent car. You just don't get it; no wonder the BIG 3 are in this mess.

Gkearns5 aka smug, hateful, anti-American zealot,

Your arguments show your inability to understand what a "market segment" is. you state:

Chevy Colorado: "Small utility truck... what else do you want from it" (Another fantastic endorsement...in other words its a piece of crap and as a buyer I guess we shouldn't expect anything from GM in terms of quality here other than "basic transportation".

You obviously are a misguided individual if you think the Colorado is built for the enthusiast or luxury market or something to that nature. I actually was looking into buying one of these for its utility purposes in snow & slight off-road usage. I actually went and read peoples' reviews and liked what I saw but I can't spend extra money right now. The exact reason for looking at a light truck was for its utilitarian capabilities, price and build. You obviously don't understand such immensely complicated concepts.

Yes, I've driven GM's 2.0L turbo vehicles many a times and they are a blast. Have you?

Last but certainly not least, anyone who cites consumer reports for their auto-bible (you) should not be taken seriously whatsoever. CR is the biggest POS when it comes to rating cars. Just the very nature of how the magazine operates, it's biased towards people who are pissed off with a product. Also, think about who acutally reads and especially who writes in to CR. yuppy, know it alls who love their toyotas and hate the big, bad American and German companies. People who whine over the stupidest crap.

If CR rated 10 olympic runners, they would take the guys who placed 4-10 and say that they are all slow and useless. For the love of God, they stopped recommending the 3.5L V6 Camry.... last I checked there really was nothing to complain about in that vehicle.

Face it, you're a bitter little man. I can picture you right now, so much pent up anger/rage/hatred. Bubbling red while reading this, so quick to point out every last negative thing about anything yet unable to fix anything. Big crybaby that is probably going to have ulcers and heart problems because of all that built up anger. Breathe, in... out....in....out.....

UAW1: You're too far gone on the union Kool-Aid; there you go again citing some off the wall statistic "90% of all automakers have unions.....". Where you get that number. As usually you're wrong. The transplant auto companies: Toyota in KY; Honda in OH; Mitsubishi in Normal, IL; BMW in South Carolina; MB in Alabama; even that Hyundai plant down south (and new VW plant to open) do not have union in their shop. That's why the BIG 3 were angry when people were talking about the wage differences. Several Washington Senators from the south opposed the bailout for the BIG 3 because those auto factories (that didn't have a union in their plants) weren't asking for bailout money. So keep floating your made up numbers on how many factories are unionized (where did that get the BIG 3 anyway); and we'll all figure out it's probably that Union Kool-Aid you've been drinking to much of.