Why Did The Infiniti Q45 Flop And Should They Even Bother With A New One?

Why Did The Infiniti Q45 Flop And Should They Even Bother With A New One?
It seems funny to me to be starting a story about Infiniti by mentioning Hyundai, but I don't feel it fair to not mention them when writing about Infiniti right now.  A Korean company who has largely been ignored by the automotive world for the last 20 years suddenly is making an impact in a BIG way with products I honestly think other makers wish they had.  Be it the Genesis Coupe or Genesis sedan, the fact is like a one two knockout punch, suddenly the emergence of this third tier auto maker as a force to be reckoned with is upon us, but more on that in a minute.

While Lexus stole a page right out of the Mercedes playbook Infiniti took a different path with their Q45.  I don't know how many of you remember the initial advertising blitz which featured such soul stirring images as rocks and nature.  And then reminded us they (Infiniti) didn't need wood on the interior to sell luxury.

Turns out they were wrong.

Second gen Q45's were most memorable for being so un-memorable.

Third generation Q45's benefited from a host of technologies intended to set it apart from a segment that had become even more crowded by some seriously intense competitors.

And that model as well was quickly vanquished into obscurity.

Luxurious?  Yes.

Technological?   Yes.

Innovative?  Yes.

And yet no one took notice or seemed to care.

The last Q45 was the first car to market with a radar controlled cruise control, had benefit of a great V8 coupled with rear wheel drive.  Was appointed very nicely, including prerequisite wood trim - a must for the segment Infiniti learned.

And yet it seems we all missed out on the greatness the Q45 offered.

I have a friend who has a very late model Q45, I honestly snicker every time I see him driving it.

But why?

On paper the first generation and third generation were good cars, maybe even great.

But that bar has been raised, and with competition coming from both ends of the spectrum the question has to be asked whether a new Q45 replacement should really even be considered.

BMW, Mercedes and Lexus own the big sedan market.  And each offering from these makers is a technological wonder with each trying to out do the other to achieve flavor of the week (month or year) status.

One could argue that Infiniti is late to the party.

And whether you want to admit it or not, Hyundai is at the other end quickly gaining ground - and credibility - offering products that truly are world class.  Get past the perception of the Hyundai you once knew and you will realize these guys are serious.

So I again pose the question, should Infiniti even bother bringing a new Q45 (probably a Q50 based on current engine outputs) to market?

A hard question and product marketing case to make, but if you were the big dog at Infiniti with the decision resting on your shoulders, what would your decision be?

Part of the argument for bringing the Q45 back would have to revolve around why the car flopped the last 3 times.  If history repeats itself when not remembered, I think reminding Infiniti what was wrong with the car will help in making the case to bring it back - assuming you think it should be brought back.

Check in and give us your insight, we KNOW the upper level folks at Infiniti read AutoSpies.com - lets offer them some helpful advice.

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hyundaifansdotcomhyundaifansdotcom - 2/28/2009 12:19:28 AM
+7 Boost
Great tech package but the exterior was boring.


laurentlaurent - 2/28/2009 12:32:00 AM
+8 Boost
Just make a big luxurious sedan based on the GT-R and every one will want one. The Q45 was ugly that's why they didn't sell well.


NISSANINFINITINISSANINFINITI - 3/2/2009 4:49:22 PM
+1 Boost
I AGREE...THE Q45 WAS HORRIBLY UGLY ON THE EXTERIOR, AND THE INTERIOR WAS FULL OF PLASTIC.......I LOVED THE GENERATION BEFORE THE LAST ONE (Q41 some called it). IT WAS A BIG BODIED CRUISER,HAD LOOK OF A MERCEDES BUT THEY GOT RID OF THE POWER FROM THE PREVIOUS ENGINE AND DIDNT HAVE ANY REAL GADGETS ON THE INTERIOR.


528i528i - 2/28/2009 1:25:35 AM
0 Boost
may be because it was the same size as the M. or it wasn't as good as the LS.


EducatedOpinion365EducatedOpinion365 - 2/28/2009 2:42:59 AM
+8 Boost
I think that the problrm with the Q45 was that Infiniti really didnt push the design far enough to cause BMW/MB/Lex buyers to take notice


JUGNUJUGNU - 2/28/2009 5:12:14 AM
+1 Boost
I rememeber i never cared for Q45, especially because of it's design and infiniti was relatively new in Middle East(it was officially launched in Middle east in 2003) but when i learned it had 360BHP when BMW and Mercedes was only aound 300, i was really attracted towards it. Drove few times and really liked the sporty drive and the interior was very different but good.

So i think as the BHP war is almost settled, i think 7 series, S class...etc will not go significantly above 400BHP but instead focus on technology, fuel economy, reducing weight(hopefully)...etc.
Upcoming Infiniti should focus on these aspects, drop the brillant FX50 motor in it but be very innovative in design, technology and make it lighter. I mean infiniti will be noticed if it does something different than 7 series and S class. Otherwise there are many who offer same, same for less...etc.

JUGNU


no1listensanywayno1listensanyway - 2/28/2009 5:53:01 AM
+7 Boost
the problem was that the Q45 had the G20(altima) and the I30/35 (maxima) and the Qx30(pathfinder) flanking it. Its like Acura is now with the rl, tl(accord), tsx(euro accord), rdx(crv), mdx(pilot)


EpikEpik - 2/28/2009 5:58:59 AM
-3 Boost
It's not just Hyundai. If you look at the designs Kia is about to bring... oh man, it's pretty crazy. Everyone else is f*cked.


Hachee2001Hachee2001 - 2/28/2009 8:30:19 AM
+5 Boost
To some extent, I think you're overstating the impact of the Hyundais. Sure, they are fine cars, maybe even excellent, and will probably sell in decent numbers, but they're competing against "lesser" badges, whether you want to admit it or not. Will they steal a few sales from Infiniti or Lexus or the others? Yeah, probably a few, but these will be to the people for whom the value is just too compelling and they just don't enough about the badge. As I write, I'm now not sure what this has to do with the Q45, but whatever.

As for Q45, there were several problems, most of which you mentioned. But from the beginning, Infiniti was overshadowed by Lexus. As we all know, Lexus in the US was simply brilliant case study marketing (I am not getting into the merits of their cars here, so leave it out of the discussion, which so far is actually free of flamers/fanboys). I personally liked the original Q45 a lot, but they took a different approach with the second generation, which majorly flopped. The rest of the Infiniti line at the time was nothing to get excited about, and they didn't find their mojo until they brought out the G35, followed by the second gen M35, and then the FX, etc. So they've got the momentum, but the economy sucks - but in a few years, I think it would be worth one more shot. But it would need to be super compelling to make inroads against the big players in the segment, which, IMO, really means great, distinctive looks, because they've all got the hi-tech and performance now. But I really don't think there's much room for another major player in the segment, so I'd expect low volume, but perhaps enough to make it worthwhile.


StarStar - 2/28/2009 9:02:02 AM
-11 Boost
Infiniti's level of engineering and quality is on the same level as Hyundai's. Nobody cares about such car in the price range Infiniti would like to sell their "flagship". A no name brand like Infiniti has no place next to the big boys. Period.


_43LE_43LE - 2/28/2009 10:49:12 AM
+1 Boost
Remember Star, at you not with you.


BarackBushBarackBush - 3/1/2009 11:04:41 PM
+3 Boost
While oversimplified, this is correct.


clsboyclsboy - 2/28/2009 10:07:39 AM
-5 Boost
Q45 = UGLY = FAIL...



maxnixmaxnix - 2/28/2009 10:43:39 AM
-5 Boost
The original G50 (1990-1996) Q45 were equal or superior in performance in every way to the German cars and much more reliable and better built. When one looked underneath the car or studied the engine, the engineering advantage over the Lexus was obvious. What they didn't spend on wood on the interior they spent double on materials and design in the rest of the car. The second gear start form rest in normal acceleration was a weird engineering decision that was not corrected until 1993. The timing chain guide problem they didn't correct until 1994 nor ever acknowledged hurt them in the later 90's after they resorted to the less expensive Cima which was actually on the same level as the LS (Celsior) in Japan. While not as sexy and as advanced as the LS of 1998 and on to 2001, the FGY33 Q45 (1997-2001) are nonetheless very reliable (bulletproof is commonly used to describe them) and pleasantly well performing cars and very economical to maintain.

The last series F50, while very innovative in cockpit design and electronic add ons, dropped the VLSD (something the LS has never had) but kept the same floorplan as the FGY33 with the MacPherson strut front end, a five speed adapted from the V35 (G35) that didn't have the right ratios. The engine when not broken in correctly or the oil is not changed frequently enough will turn into a burner. The VK engine design reflected the enlarged 3.5L VQ with smaller bearing journals and looser ring fit to gain that horsepower and economy rating on the edge. The newer 5L VK and 3.7L VQ with the HR suffixes have addressed many of these oversights. Still, it is improbable they will match the overdesigned understressed success of the VH series of V8 in the earlier Q45 that will easily go 250K miiles with minimal maintenance and more like 350K miles with perfect maintenance.

Quite frankly, even Lexus service people will acknowledge the LS 430 is not up to the assembly and fit and finish of the earlier LS 400. Everyone from MB on down was forced by Lexus and Infiniti to offer more for less money by the early to mid nineties examples from them. I doubt we will ever see that engineering and build quality overkill again, but Hyundai is giving them a run for it at a lower price point. Consumers who scoff dismissively at Hyundai haven't looked at it carefully enough and don't recall recent history.


WimmerWimmer - 2/28/2009 4:46:34 PM
+5 Boost
Better built? I hate stupid claims like these that have absolutely zero basis. Build quality in cars like BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi etc. is pretty damn high. Arguing that one is better than the other is pointless. The way a car holds up doesn't only depend on how well it is put together but also how it is treated or where it is driven.

Anyone who thinks that one car in a particular class is better built than others better provide some pretty good evidence that proves to everyone that this is the case.


abcdabcd - 3/1/2009 3:57:11 AM
+2 Boost
Here is a Car&Driver comparison test of original q45 and competitors from 1990:
http://www.q45.org/cd1989comparison/

Score table:
http://www.q45.org/cd1989comparison/CD_12_89_Showdown_pg12.pdf

First q45 was also equipped in very innovative systems for its times like active suspension (named q45a) and 4-wheel steering named HICAS (on q45t):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnC-R3U5vO4


pchera01pchera01 - 3/2/2009 9:52:14 PM
+1 Boost
someone anyone what is going on with BOSE active suspension???



4ron4ron - 2/28/2009 11:03:43 AM
+2 Boost
It's very simple. The last model was a beast ... with its "gatling gun" headlights and gargantuan taillights. Infiniti needs to get the styling right.


marinaside1199marinaside1199 - 2/28/2009 12:07:48 PM
+2 Boost
ha, I totally remember reading about the headlights and tail lights on this car. But that's all I remember.


thetruth01thetruth01 - 2/28/2009 12:53:03 PM
+2 Boost
Put those sweet engines in something that doesn't look like a Mercury Sable, and you'll be fine, Infiniti.


mini22mini22 - 2/28/2009 1:08:43 PM
+2 Boost
I think the basic problem was the way Infinity marketed themselves from the very beginning. As was mentioned in the article Infinity first showed the Zen scenary of rocks and fish.Then they stated they did not need wood in a luxury car. Lexus simply took a page out of the Mercedes playbook. That was smart because that is what people identified as luxury. When Infinity made this mistake it took them a long time to come back and be identified as a luxury car maker. Now look what Hyundai has done. They have simply taken a page from the Lexus play book. The Genesis IS considered a luxury car. The Infiniti G series has been going after the BMW playbook.Perhaps that would be where a new G50 should aim for.Or perhaps mixing in some Italian design (eg Maserati Quatroporte)with Japanese accents. The design must be agressive and striking and above all beautiful if Infiniti is to establish itself again with a large luxury car. Yes it is being a copycat but it worked for Lexus and it appear to be working for Hyundai.


sectorsector - 2/28/2009 2:05:54 PM
-4 Boost
Because shallow people always go for the bling... Q45 was a bit short in this department even if it was a technology marvel, clueless people won't take notice unless it registers with their brand conscious brainwashed minds and look good at the shopping mall.


theoptimisticpessimisttheoptimisticpessimist - 2/28/2009 2:06:52 PM
0 Boost
Infiniti committed the worst miscalculation possible in this class of cars, they made it forgettable.


BarackBushBarackBush - 3/1/2009 11:03:50 PM
0 Boost
This is pretty much correct.


neutralneutral - 2/28/2009 9:24:06 PM
-2 Boost
Being that Nissan/Infiniti is the only Japanese automaker that I really like, I would love a new Q45. I don't think it will happen anytime soon since the world economy is a shambles and the M-infiniti does not sell too well either.

Couple it with the fact that Congress is run by people who get a tingling feeling in their legs when they talk about the Prius........

Can anyone say G37 getting replaced by G08? It's OK though, it will be a bio-diesel, ethanol, hydrogen, hybrid, plug-in, electric car that costs $85,000.


Lamborghini_vs_Ferrari_RacerLamborghini_vs_Ferrari_Racer - 2/28/2009 10:58:44 PM
+2 Boost
I have got to be honest, people all around ramble about the RL needing a V8 for success and popularity.
Well, the Q45 is a similar car at a similar price point. Why did it fail, besides having a powerful V8 and it is not particularly bad looking.
Well, the simple answer is at the high 5 digit price tag, the MADE IN JAPAN buyers will only look at a lexus and once the price/segment approaches 6 figures ( loaded 7 series, S classes, Quattroporte, Jag XJ ) the buyers are only looking at EUROPEAN period.
I would like some one to tell me if I am wrong ( with proper explanation =) )


Imola48isX5Imola48isX5 - 3/1/2009 12:07:01 AM
0 Boost
the headlights were cool


Imola48isX5Imola48isX5 - 3/1/2009 12:07:14 AM
0 Boost
the headlights were cool


MinisterofDOOMMinisterofDOOM - 3/1/2009 2:20:20 AM
+2 Boost
A large part of the Q's halting success was due to Infiniti's marketing decisions. The first generation (known to Q owners as the G50) was marketed with a bizarre artsy rocks-and-water advertising that never showed the car. The Q had plenty of features worthy of touting, but Infiniti ignored them in their marketing.
Also, the Q was designed with some unusual decisions as far as luxury. Infiniti intentionally traded chrome and wood trim for flat black, going for a more modern, clean vision of luxury. It didn't appeal to US buyers. In 1994 the car was retouched to bring more mainstream luxury touches to the interior and exterior, but by then it was too late.
The Q's focus on performance over luxury probably also scared away a lot of Lexus cross-shoppers and their ilk. Most American car buyers want a car they can forget about or disappear in. They don't want to feel it, don't want to hear it, and don't want to be reminded they're in a car. The Q took exactly the opposite strategy there, building a driver-centric car that was involving and rewarding to drive. Even the cockpit was driver-centric, and more worthy of the term "cockpit" than most other car's driver seats.

Infiniti repeated many of these mistakes with the third-generation Q45. The marketing was nonexistent until the final couple years of the car's existence, when it once again recieved a makeover in hopes of making it's controversial styling more appealing. But even then, it took the backseat to Infiniti's new darling, the G35. And as noted above, in it's final year, the Q was threatened by it's own kin, the much-lauded 2nd generation M45. The M offered a sportier chassis with the same powerful V8 and more widely appealing looks.

Consumers and car enthusiasts can benefit from the Q's poor sales, though. You can probably still find new-on-lot '06 Q45s, and the dealers will beg you to take them. You can have a fantastic car for a fraction of it's msrp. The '05/'06 Q45 Sport in particular is worth looking into if you'd like an uncommon, powerful, luxurious car. Third-generation Q45s can be had in very good shape for under $20,000 easily. Quite the bargain, considering the car's offerings and original price.

One thing that must be kept in mind when considering whether Infiniti should bother with a new Q is that some of what makes a Q a Q and not a Lexus or other MB-fighter is what makes it unappealing to many buyers. But you also have to remember (as does Infiniti) that flagship cars are not supposed to sell volumes or even make money. They are supposed to remind the world what your company is capable of. But in order for that to work, the world has to be AWARE of your flagship. If Infiniti can figure out how to market the car properly, a true Q-followup could be a very hot item. But personally, I think Infiniti is too absorbed in selling scores of G37s to spare any effort for the car that started the company.


3pointstar3pointstar - 3/1/2009 5:09:17 AM
+2 Boost
First of all, the name, Q45. When I think of Q, I think QUEER. I have nothing against gay people btw. Also, the last generation's ads focused on the technology behind the GATLING GUN headlights. Hello Nissan, I don't buy a car just for the headlights!!!


daydaydayday - 3/1/2009 7:31:08 AM
+2 Boost
i think it just wasn't pretty enough....


StickShiftCamryStickShiftCamry - 3/1/2009 2:28:24 PM
+3 Boost
The lights didn't even make a nice laser like straight line like a bmw or even the LS HID's back then. Last one had more HP than LS but was slower?


DarkPheonixDarkPheonix - 3/1/2009 5:27:04 PM
+2 Boost
Infiniti is as likely to compete with the Big Boys as Acura or Lincoln are.
They are second rate, just as Hyundai is on the full-scale side, new entries not withstanding
Hyundai is just as afraid of challenging the best as Infiniti is, and their inner weakness will be their downfall
When either one wants to step up and challenge the best, let me know.
Hyundai can't stop taking the cheap way out, that's why it gets no respect.
If you want to build luxury cars, make a marque, and Just Do It.
Until then, leave me alone
At least Nissan tried and failed
Hyundai won't even do that




Lamborghini_vs_Ferrari_RacerLamborghini_vs_Ferrari_Racer - 3/1/2009 7:21:23 PM
-2 Boost
Whats with the Hyundai bashing?
In this day, when Hyundai can give you V8s and hi-tech options like upper brands undercutting their prices by large amounts, whats the point of overspending when everyone is undergoing financial turmoil. People are cutting cable televisions and cellphone users are going prepaid.
And the way Hyundai undercuts its rivals by 1000s of $s is nothing ?
Also, if the Genesis or any of the upcoming Hyundais have a BIG NAME grille, you would ramble about how it is the BEST !

P.S. I am not a fan of Hyundai, but they have come a long way and even I cannot deny it.


MunichRobMunichRob - 3/1/2009 8:42:25 PM
+2 Boost
Styling was the issue plain & simple...


NISSANINFINITINISSANINFINITI - 3/2/2009 4:53:35 PM
+2 Boost
I AGREE, INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR!


BarackBushBarackBush - 3/1/2009 11:02:46 PM
+2 Boost
The original Q45 was the best attempt. Everything after that was clearly behind all the competiton. It didn't help it got uglier, Infiniti could barely sell and had no image. By the time Infiniti sort of got its act together, it was too late.

Honestly, with the 7/S/LS/A8/XJ, what does the Q45 bring or could it bring? They should never bring it back.


NISSANINFINITINISSANINFINITI - 3/2/2009 4:56:03 PM
0 Boost
STARTING FROM SCRATCH , THEY COULD BRING ALOT TO THE TABLE. THEY HAVE ALOT OF STYLING QUES THEY CAN BRING FROM THEIR CURRENT CARS, AND THEY HAVE HAD THE TECHNOLOGY...ITS JUST A MATTER OF INTER AND EXTERIOR STYLING IN MY OPINION, WHICH IS A VERY EASY THING TO ACCOMPLISH... HELL THEY COULD MIMICK A BMW, MERCEDES, OR LEXUS


mikeydred20mikeydred20 - 3/2/2009 12:57:17 PM
-1 Boost
The M 45 came along was more stylish and better performance. BMW doesn't really have an ultra soft cruiser either. Make a long wheel base version of the next M and call it a day. Meanwhile Acura is serious about introducing their LS fighter and this is when the hating starts 3-2-1.....


BarackBushBarackBush - 3/5/2009 10:54:33 PM
0 Boost
Sorry but Acura will never be Tier 1. They don't get it.


LuxuryFanLuxuryFan - 3/2/2009 4:13:21 PM
+2 Boost
Honestly, with the fake wood paneling, questionable leather seating and generous helpings of molded plastic, the Q never felt as luxurious or even well designed as the LS 400.


EL34EL34 - 3/2/2009 6:30:37 PM
+3 Boost
The Q45 failed because it an ugly piece of dog $h!t.

:-\


lexworldlexworld - 3/2/2009 11:13:48 PM
+1 Boost
I onced really liked the Q45 back in the early 90's. Back then the LS400 looked too conservative and looked liked it just floated over the road, which it did in reality. Then it happened. In the mid nineties tranny problems started to surface and then engine problems followed. By the late nineties the Q45s changed designs but, it was too late. The cars reputation had plumented and its appeal was trumped by the LS400 big time. Infiniti just could not keep up with Lexuses engineering prowes and superiority. They just did not have the smarts and wisdom and til this day they still really have'nt matched Toyotas wisdom and image. Some things in life are meant to be and Toyotas destiny to be the worlds best and largest had to happen. "AND IT DID". So, no they should not bring back the Q45....It'S Over Infiniti...The Q will always be a flop...that was its destiny.


DinamoRDinamoR - 3/3/2009 3:49:47 AM
+2 Boost
looks like a maxima with huge headlights.

Besides, infiniti has horrible reliability. and reliability matters.


DenaliDenali - 3/3/2009 2:22:22 PM
+2 Boost
the luxury Nissan was focus on Toyota ONLY while the Luxury Toyota focus on Germany Benchmarks...the Q45 won the battles but LS won the WAR...FACT


KrazeedddKrazeeddd - 3/4/2009 10:35:04 AM
+1 Boost
Styling creates the image. Q45 (any version) - not much of either.

The original LS looked like a MB for less $. Got a lot of attention.

Q54's look like nothing else (not good) and were invisable to boot

Make a Q45 that resemble a A-M Rapide and it would sell.


JTWJJTWJ - 3/6/2009 1:47:18 PM
+1 Boost
As an owner of a 1991 Q45t(pearl white, 300k+ miles and still going strong), I always want there to be a Q. The original body style was always beautiful to me. It looked like nothing else on the road, and I appreciated that it was a performance vehicle and very driver-centric. I didn't care for the 2nd-gen car when it came out. In fact, I didn't start liking the 2nd-gen car until the 3rd-gen car came out. The one thing i did hear from my mechanic was that the 2nd-gen car was damn near problem-free compared to the first car (chain guides, etc.) By the time I started liking the 2nd-gen car, it just wasn't possible to find them with a million miles on them. The 3rd-gen car just never grabbed me from a design standpoint, but I did love the technology. I just didnt want to ride around in something that looked like a Japanese Buick to me.
If Infiniti decides to bring back the Q, it really needs to be breathtaking from a design standpoint. They have the technology game down pat. Just make the new Q something that moves me even when it is standing still.
I've moved on to Mercedes as my primary driver, but if Infiniti does a new Q right, I will gladly come back.


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