Audi Going Massively Lighter, is BMW in Trouble?

How is BMW going to be in trouble, they are already massively lighter than Audi. Take a look at the weight of the S5 it ways more than the 335i hard top convert.

Nice article. Way to summarize it, but this says it best in the final paragraph

"Skeptical? So are we. Industry sources tell us Audi hasn't yet taken enough weight out of the car's structure to achieve the stated goals, and we get the impression that Dick is telling us about the project to force his development team to make good on the claims. If you assume a car's engineering must be completed three years before it goes into production, they only have a couple of years to achieve these aggressive targets. We wish them the best of luck."

Basically, not going to happen unless Audi gets rid of the FWD AWD system that they employ .

Audi S5 coupe 4067lbs(tiptronic)

BMW 335Xi coupe 3825 (auto)

BMW 335i Hardtop convert 3957 (auto)

From the article " ...Audi is currently testing a prototype of the next-generation S5 that weighs 880 pounds less than the current car". Yet Car and Driver is still skeptical?

This article says 2014, not 2009. How hard is that to understand?

Of course current Audi's weigh more than BMW's, except for the A8.

the lighter the car the more expensive it will be so BMW doesnt have to be ascared of shyt. what i want to know why does everyone have to compare their cars to BMW give it a rest thats a little old right now. BMW, Mercedes, and AUDI are hot in their own way. They are the hottest premium (not exotic.......PREMIUM) auto manufactuers in the world.

Audi has design down to a science even though there cars look the same they have nice clean cut lines thats one thing i do like about audi
BMW is known for their M-Division M3,M6,M5, engines
Mercedes i mean there is nothing else to say its mercedes

The 2.8 and 3.2 are available as front wheel drive versions.

Rear wheel on the A8

My mistake. I did believe the A8 came in rear, but comes with AWD / Quattro System adds permanent all-wheel drive and has an additional center differential between the front and rear suspensions, in turn automatically distributes power. Even better.

lol BMW in trouble just for a simple audi diet? Lets put it this way, Audi can probably be commercializing about how fuel efficient they are. But only without thinking maybe BMW could also be advertising how "safe" their cars are now compared to BMW.

Lighter= less material.... which means car may crumple a bit easier

Heavier= yes it may be a pain at the pump.... but atleast you get to be more safe and confident...

and besides... bmw is the biggest luxo car maker... why should they be fearing anything?

Audis are not fuel efficient. BMW diesels wipe the floor with Audi's underengineered compression combustion rubbish.

Need proof?

BMW 320d
170HP
0-62: 7,9 sec (see that? that's very fast)
4,8 l/100km ECE European combined cycle
CO2: 128 g/km

VW Passat 2.0 TDI BlueMotion (edition optimized for efficiency)
110HP
0-62: 11,7 sec (that's much slower than Toyota Prius, LOL)
4,9 l/100km ECE European combined cycle
CO2: 128 g/km

Audi A4 2.0 TDI (slower edition)
120HP
0-62: 10,7 sec (that's just as slow as Toyota Prius, LOL)
5,1 l/100km ECE European combined cycle
CO2: 134 g/km


So Audi's diesels are much slower than BMW's (in fact these cars are either slower or just as slow as Toyota Prius) yet consume more fuel.


http://www.bmw.de/de/de/newvehicles/3series/sedan/2008/allfacts/engine/technical_data.html
http://www.volkswagen.de/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/de3/modelle/passat/Der_neue_Passat/zahlen___fakten/technische_daten.detail.1.1.html
http://www.audi.de/de/brand/de/neuwagen/a4/a4_limousine/technische_daten_und.html

Must say, the 320d is a great car. Drove one through Europe last fall and was very impressed. I would love if they brought it stateside.

Nope, no need to worry...
Ingolstadt, 2009-01-16

AUDI AG: A4 is Germany's most successful premium model in 2008

* After VW Golf, Audi A4 most frequently bought car in Germany
* Audi A6 and Audi TT most successful models in their classes
* Audi is the premium brand in Germany and Western Europe experiencing the strongest growth

The latest vehicle registration numbers verify that the Audi A4 is Germany's most successful premium automobile. No other model in the premium segment surpassed the 98,714 A4 models registered last year. The Audi A6 also topped its segment with 45,304 registrations. The second generation of the Audi TT design icon was registered 10,630 times in Germany – making it the most successful sports car in Germany in 2008.

AUDI AG was able to expand its market share on the domestic German market to 8.1 percent – an increase of 0.8 percent. In Western Europe, Audi boosted its market share by 0.4 points to 4.8 percent: No other premium brand succeeded in strengthening its market position this significantly.

"Audi is presently experiencing stronger growth than any other premium brand in the region – and thanks to new models we will maintain this dynamism," says Rupert Stadler, Chairman of the Board of Management of AUDI AG. "In a difficult market environment, we want to further expand our market share in Germany and Western Europe."

The Audi A4 is presently undergoing further upgrading: The top versions of the model line – the S4 Sedan and Avant – are now arriving in Europe's showrooms. The new A4 Avant was just launched in April 2008. In addition to the fleet award from Auto-Flotte magazine, Audi's best-selling model has already won countless accolades and has beaten the competition in all relevant comparison tests.

The product improvement of the A6 was launched in September 2008. Also the winner of the fleet award in its class, today the A6 is Germany's most successful business sedan.

With the Audi TTS, the top version of the TT line, Audi introduced the first S model in this class. The Audi TT TDI debuted as the first production sports car powered by a diesel engine.

AUDI AG sold a total of 1,003,000 cars in 2008 and thus achieved its thirteenth consecutive record year. Audi produces vehicles in Ingolstadt and Neckarsulm (Germany), Györ (Hungary), Changchun (China) and Brussels (Belgium). Aurangabad in India saw the start of local production of the Audi A6 at the end of 2007 and of the Audi A4 in early October 2008. The company is active in more than 100 markets worldwide. AUDI AG's wholly owned subsidiaries include Automobili Lamborghini Holding S.p.A. in Sant'Agata Bolognese (Italy) and quattro GmbH in Neckarsulm. Audi currently employs around 57,000 people worldwide, including 45,000 in Germany. The brand with the four rings invests more than €2 billion each year in order to sustain the company's technological lead embodied in its "Vorsprung durch Technik" slogan. Audi plans to significantly increa

FabboysStink-

Use the current Audi A4 2.0 TDI and you see they are not quite as fast, but slightly more efficient:

2009 Audi 2.0 TDI - 140 hp, 236 lb-ft torque 0-60=8.3 secs 53.3 mpg

BMW 170 hp, 258 lb-ft tourque 0-60 7.9 52.3 mpg

No matter how you look at it BMW isn't mopping up the Audi with the 320d

009 the 320 has 30 more hp, 20 more lb-ft of torque and is a half second quicker to 60, out of the same size engine, and is only 1 mile per gallon less. If that isn't superior i don't know what is. Its a fact that VW/Audi make the worst diesels in Germany when compared to MB and BMW.

"Use the current Audi A4 2.0 TDI"

Obviously I did, you didn't checks the links I provided. Then it'd have been obvious 2009 A4 was chosen.

The old A4 was even worse since it had four pot diesels based on unit injectors. These were horrid dirty clatter generators.


"and you see they are not quite as fast, but slightly more efficient:
2009 Audi 2.0 TDI - 140 hp, 236 lb-ft torque 0-60=8.3 secs 53.3 mpg
BMW 170 hp, 258 lb-ft tourque 0-60 7.9 52.3 mpg"

Sorry, but you messed up the data. Once again, check my links. Or you can use other ones from their British sites, here they are:

BMW 320d http://tinyurl.com/bt4sll
Combined fuel consumption (imperial mpg): 58.9
Performance (hp): 177
0-62mph (secs): 7.9

2009 Audi A4 2.0 TDI http://tinyurl.com/bbh47w
Max Output: 120 HP
Combined 55.4 imperial mpg
Acceleration 0-60 mph 10.7 Seconds (0-62 for BMW so the gap is even wider)

This Audi comes closest to BMW in terms of fuel economy. But performancewise stands no chance. And there is still 318d which returns even slightly higher mpg.


"No matter how you look at it BMW isn't mopping up the Audi with the 320d"

They do. Remember these are bread and butter diesels. BMW also offers two twin turbo engines which are actually the best diesels currently in production. For some reason they haven't installed the one from 123d (200HP, 2 liters, 0-60 in 7 sec) in 3 series, 5 series and X3 where it belongs. It was such obvious move Alpina tuning company went on doing it. Unlike in case of 3 liter twin turbo diesel which is available in every BMW it should be, BMW is not exploiting its competitive advantage. Mercedes performs better here, offering their 250 CDI similar diesel in both volume seller C class and new E class. Those downsized engines actually make classic singe turbo 3 liter ones quite obsolete.

Volkswagen and Audi are yet to deliver such diesel. Even GM has 190HP one offered in Insignia.

Most of the weight savings come in chassis development, though other factors such as lighter panels, wheels and components play a significant part. Audi obviously has the lead in this area by proven production of the A8 and the excellent R8. The use of ceramic brakes, ASF constructed of aluminum, engine frame of lightweight magnesium the relation of weight to torsional rigidity - is the best in the sports car segment. The body is composed of profile extrusions, sheet aluminum and very complex gusset castings, all held together by 99 meters (325 ft) of welding seams, 782 rivets, and 308 special screws. Also, a dominant element is the so-called monoposto - a wide arc that contains the steering wheel and the cockpit is made of light weight material as well. That being said, Audi will take some of this tech into the new model line-up to strengthen their point. This is already in production, not estimated for future products.

Bimmer fans will say anything to underestimate AUDI. but the tru is that AUDI already have a big edge over BMW and MB. Imagine what will happen if they get rid of the FWD or AWD. Honestly is OK for me to remove FWD, but AWD should continue....Quatro are great.

I see, wow how sensitive and delicate these guys are. Man you would think you slap their momma or something. I remember when I was in design school and this kid wanted to fight when I said his 328 was just 4 wheels to A and B. He almost s%&t his self. Guys, new flash, the measure of a man is his character, not what he has. When I got my Lexus, I would get thumbs up, and treated so differently. That is a sign of low self worth and it makes no sense.

BMW's will always be lighter, they use the thinnest subframes in the business.... just look up "subframe issues" for BMW and you'll see that they've always used inferior subframes, even going back to e36s.

BMW -> tin cans -> lighter aka. "sportier" :)

All these cars go lighter and heavier over the generations. It's part of evolution in the auto industry. BMW's will still handle well but minor sacrifices may be made.

how did audi copy? was it the TT V8? nope! audi did that in the RS6 a few years back. was it the 8 cyl in the entry level car? nope! audi did that in 2004 with the S4. was it the TT 6 cyl? nope? audi did that in 2000 (i think) with the B5 S4.

It's not that bad. Wouldn't steel also be a bit safer as well?

It is just silly ways to get you to comment on the article, uh like you just did to start debate. Juve, yes but it works for some. People bottom line will purchase what they like with their hard earned money doesn't matter if everyone else thinks it is cool to own a car because it makes you look cool... wait, this site is full of those types.

They are teasers with links back to the originator.. simply click on "read more" to see the entire article.

Ok how about massive loses at BWM for 2008 leaves a lighter bottom line.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmw-posts-worse-than-expected-2008-results.html
Audmay have posted record numbers for 2008, but cross-country rival BMW had a much rougher go of it last year. BMW’s profits have declined nearly 90 percent over the last 12 months, leading to worse-than-expected financial results for 2008.

BMW’s U.S. sales dropped by 37 percent last year – equaling a 28-year low – while European sales trailed off by 27 percent. BMW’s global sales – including the company’s Rolls-Royce and MINI brands – totaled 1,439,918 units in 2008.
Thanks to that sales decline, BMW’s revenue dropped 5 percent in 2008 to €53.2 billion. The German automaker still posted a profit of €330 million, but that figure is well off the €1.02 billion analysts were predicting.

Sorry typo on above post , "Audi may have posted...

The bottom line is Audi may be grandstanding a bit when they claim they will have lighter cars that will lap the Nurburgring faster. However based on their current financial situations Audi has a significantly greater advantage then either BMW or Mercedes in cost to build and now marketing ability. Being part of VW they can really on a huge sharing of parts that BMW and Mercedes cannot.When you here that BMW profits dropped 90% in 2008 while VW posted better profits it cannot be encouraging for BMW.Based on this it may be highly likely that Audi will come out with significantly lighter cars across it's model range that may end up getting better fuel economy then either BMW and Mercedes in the future. Further assuming they acheive the lighter weight in their quattro models they will probably handle much better and further close the gap on the handling front with both BMW and Mercedes.I also predict they will surpass both BMW and Mercedes in sales growth in the next couple of years and catch up in the US as well.

This is a logical, far sited assessment it all holds out. The A4 has closed the gap with the 3 Series. Maybe not surpass but damn close. Infiniti has been obsessed with bettering BMW, but you can't out BMW. Audi knows this and has gone its own way. The R8 for one is the tip of the iceberg, then the new A8 will shake things up some more. For now game point, 3 series, but how long?

does autospies do this on purpose...either it bmw against lexus or bmw against audi...nway, i'm not against audi...i luv my bmw and been thru quite a few..if money was no object tho, I'd choose the S5 over the 335i and throw sum KW suspension...havin said that this weight loss business fm audi has been goin on for a while now...before the current A4s came out they kept claimin the next one is going to be much lighter like in the 3400lbs region...but it's not..not even close cuz the A4 2.0T quattro weighs above 3800Lbs..that's ridiculous for a 4 banger...so yea, i agree with C&D...until I see it in U.S form (european is always lighter) then call me a skeptic..if they do it though i'm going with an Audi (well if they put that active diff in all their cars)

Though I don't like AUDI generally for lack of RWD and styling, I appreciate their effort to focus on issues like cutting weight rather than coming up w/ vehicle nobody asked, i.e. X6.

Yes, the X6 is a sales failure. Audi and Benz know better than to repeat that mistake.

I don't personally know what the on paper sales figures looks like for the X6, but from what I hear it's not very good. That said I'm still amazed by the amount of them I see on the road in my city alone! Is my city just BMW friendly or have other people noticed this as well?

They sold 250 X6's last month. BMW was hoping for around 700 per month or 8,000 yearly. Yes, it is a failure on paper and in real life.

I thought it was 500 last month.

Investor, it was only 250. Research the sales numbers for February 2009.

I wonder why people are always comparing BMW's to Audi's. Unless you are comparing the AWD versions, they don't compare. The current 3 Series struggles in terms of aesthetics and the BMW interiors are still 1990's "simple".