Infiniti planning its first diesel engine for the upcoming M-Series

Stupid, Infiniti badly need a G25

its called the GTR

this will be interesting we all know the engine will be extra torqueee its just what are they going to have the HP at. I hope the car also gets re-designed before this engine drops

Although Davi969 occasionally posts nonsense, this time he is absolutely right. Let's back it up with data.

To cover 15.000 miles...

- Toyota Prius II (0-60 in 10.7 sec) needs 7.4 barrels of oil [1]
- Toyota Camry Hybrid (0-60 in 8.6 sec) needs 10.1 barrels of oil [2]
- Nissan Altima Hybrid (0-60 in 7.5 sec) needs 10.1 barrels of oil [3]

And a DIESEL? Well...
- Volkswagen Jetta TDI DSG (0-60 in 9 sec) needs 11.9 barrels of oil (WHOPPING 60% more than the Prius, 18% more than cars one class larger and significantly faster)


How about bigger cars?

- Lexus GS450h (0-60 in 5.6 sec) needs 14.9 barrels of oil [4]

And a DIESEL? Well...
- Mercedes E320 CDI Bluetec (0-60 in 6.8 sec) needs 15.1 barrels of oil [5] (1.3% more but it's 23% slower)


How about SUVs?
- Lexus RX400h AWD (0-60 in 7.5 sec) needs 13.7 barrels of oil [6]

And a DIESEL? Well...
- Mercedes ML320 CDI Bluetec (0-60 in 8.5 sec) needs 19.7 barrels of oil. [7] It's WHOPPING 44% more than the Lexus and it's still 14% slower!

To put things in perspective to the DIESEL SUV, the 400HP TorSen all wheel drive full blown long wheel base Lexus LS600h L flagship (0-60 in 6 sec) needs 16.3 barrels of oil [8]. Much slower ML diesel SUV needs 20% more!


Diesels are DIRTY. This is ADAC (German institution) EcoTEST sorted by exhaust rating. Diesel turd is at its very bottom. The list of 600+ cars is topped by Toyota Prius clean hybrid:
http://adac-ecotest.awardspace.biz/

So, to sum up, diesels are:
- inefficient
- dirty
- slow

One has to be a genuine retard to buy one instead of a hybrid. So why Europeans purchase them in such quantities?

1. Germans (Motor Presse Stuttgart and Axel Springer) bough virtually every motoring magazine and blatantly lie their readers about hybrid fuel consumption and energy efficiency, providing false, inflated readings. Meanwhile they lie reader claiming diesels are "clean" and "ecological" although exactly the opposite is the case.

2. Europeans aren't those you could call bright. They also like grunge and muck.

3. Toyota and Lexus made series of product planning mistakes when promoting hybrids. They sold Prii, GS450h and RX400h fully equipped so sticker prices had to be above bare naked armpit diesels. Since Europeans aren't smart, they perceived hybrids as something very expensive, ignoring stuff they came as standard with.

Sources:
[1] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2009&make=Toyota&model=Prius
[2] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2009&make=Toyota&model=Camry%20Hybrid
[3] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2009&make=Nissan&model=Altima%20Hybrid
[4] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2009&make=Lexus&model=GS%20450h
[5] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2009&make=Mercedes-Benz&model=E320%20Bluetec
[6] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2008&make=Lexus&model=RX%20400h%204WD
[7] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg

[...]
[7] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2009&make=Mercedes-Benz&model=ML320%20Bluetec
[8] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2009&make=Lexus&model=LS%20600h%20L


BTW, everyone who deboosted David in this post acknowledged he has absolutely no understanding of automotive technology so cannot be a true motoring enthusiast.

Nissan/Renault already make diesels so there is not really that much investment.

TurboSpyder:
"that was developed in Germany"

TurboSpyder, it is long time since you have been saying this, you're really weak at searching for truth, write in google: honda diesel chief engineer.

ABCD was right, as usual.


Authors: Slavnich, Dean

Source: Automotive Engineer; Jul/Aug2003, Vol. 28 Issue 7, p18, 2p, 1 black & white photograph

Document Type: Interview

Subject Terms: ENGINEERS

AUTOMOBILES -- Motors (Diesel)

Company: HONDA Motor Co. Ltd.

People: NAGAHIRO, Kenichi (check this GERMAN name!!)

Abstract: Interviews Kenichi Nagahiro, senior chief engineer of Honda Motor Co. diesel development,regarding the development of a 2.2 liter i-CTDi...
Accession Number: 10859932

http://connection.ebscohost.com/content/article/1034250679.html

You have to remember Turbospyder's perspective. He only likes people of European descent especially if they're WASP and bible thumping. That's why you'll never see him praising anything Asian (you'll likely see him making fun of anything Asian instead). He also often takes the opportunity to not tell the whole story so that his deluded quasi-logic might make sense. Luckily there are people here on Autospies that know better.

Sorry Turbo, we see right through you...If you weren't filled with so much hate maybe the clouds would part and you'd see clearly.

Turbo, it doesn't matter how much you try to copy and paste, it's your tone and intention that is in question...

How can I not love you Turbo? You're everything I aspire to be: hateful, racist, biased, a really cool math guy (OK), illogical, small minded. The list of qualities goes on and on...If only everyone was like you. Just imagine...yikes.

You kind of really lost me when you started the bible thumping again since quoting from the bible is the worst way to support any argument. Did you ever stop to thing that what might be unnatural to some may be very natural to others? What is very unnatural are Europeans living in North America. The indigenous people of North America are native people. If you want to bring order to North America, then get rid of everyone but native Americans. Ship all Asians, Africans, and Europeans back to where they came from. Oh yeah, the native Americans were actually Asians to begin with so maybe they have a right to be here more than you. And if you bring things really far back, we all originated from Africa...so then don't we all belong here? Remember, North America's history has been of immigration from everywhere, even from the very beginning. Your problem is that you want everything to be put into little boxes so that everything fits so that it can make sense, when in reality the nature of the universe is change and diversity.


FYI, I don't self segregate on the weekends as your beloved attorney general said, I have friends of all different races. It's sad to know that you probably don't. They bring a richness to my life that money could never buy. At the end of your life you're going to ask yourself what you learned and what you experienced because that will define who you are. Are you going to say that you were a close minded hateful person, or will you say that you embraced life in as many ways as possible? Can you say that you were a happy person? I know that I'll be able to.

Remember, the god that you define probably does not exist, so don't worry about it and just be happy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/books/22kaku.html?_r=1&ref=books

"They no fly to Japan to learn about new Honda diesel - they go to Honda's R&D center in Offenbach Germany."

TurboSpyder, this is really funny that you take unimportant facts (that journalists tested this engine in Germany) while omitting important fact who was the chief engineer. But I shouldn't be surprized since you have been always doing this. To end your ridiculous claim about this diesel engine:

http://www.sovereign-publications.com/images/Auto/Honda%20(Kenichi%20Nagahire).pdf
(page 2, column 2)

"Honda diesel (as picture above clearly shows) also uses Bosch injection system."

If I remember correctly current generation Honda 2.2 DTEC engine uses Bosch injectors and Denso ECU(injection program with 5 injections per stroke).

Turbo, you know the more you quote the bible the less credible you look here...I boggles my mind to think that someone that studies math, a branch of science could be so brainwashed. Read another book please.

Dear God, please save me from people that believe in you!

"It was our manifest destiny that we defeated the noble ... I mean native Indians in war fair and square but nobody defeated us to force their way in"

That is so wrong and twisted, so you're saying that if you brutalize a population and spread sickness, commit genocide that it's okay...you are one twisted person. Applying the same logic, if someone were to come and murder you or give you some sickness then it would be okay for them to occupy where you live and spit on all your relatives. Also, you might also argue that it would be okay then to kidnap people and make them your cleaning staff.

"unprecedented famines, plagues, earthquakes and war and financial collapse."

These types of things have been going on long before the bible was made up. Anyone could write that. Don't you know most of the bible prophecies can be debunked or have been predicted by mere chance? I really feel sorry for you that you have to fear the world.

TS--

i 'spose you are a cheerleader for the Spanish Inquisition as well?

TurboSpyder:
"If you can show some definitive information that Honda's diesel engine was engineered in Japan and not in Offenbach, I'll change my mind."

I've already shown you:
http://www.sovereign-publications.com/images/Auto/Honda%20(Kenichi%20Nagahire).pdf

"The individuals making up the development team from Honda Research and Development Centre in Japan"

TurboSpyder:
"Honda R&D Europe (Deutschland) GmbH

Research and study necessary for developing motorcycles and automobiles.

Country Germany
Category Subsidiary
Established 1988 OFFENBACH, Germany

http://world.honda.com/HondaRandDEurope/"

And that's good that you quoted this, as you see it's a study neccesary for development, no development. And isn't this obvious that presentation of this engine should be in Europe since in Japan Honda very prabobly hasn't been selling Diesels? And why team unexperienced in developing engines in Offenbach would had develop this engine?

"This is how Japanese parts makers like Denso were hoisted into the modern world:"

Japan Electronic Control System Co.
and Nippon ABS aren't major suppliers like Denso. But I no understand why you quoted that, what is extraoridinary in buying injectors from Bosch by Honda? BMW and Mercedes are buying IHI turbochargers, BMW Mitsubishi turbochargers and it also isn't nothing extraoridinary, everyone is buying from some suppliers:
"IHI also supplies turbochargers to numerous European carmakers, including BMW and Mercedes"
http://www.motorauthority.com/japans-ihi-develops-worlds-smallest-turbocharger.html
"The engine produces 306 hp and 295 ft-lbs of torque in a 3.0L inline six package thanks to the use of twin Mitsubishi turbochargers and direct injection."
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/22/bmw-owners-claim-software-update-degrades-performance/

"how their ALMS racing engines are made in America"

Show me definitive information.

"So why are the journalists evaluating a Honda development prototype car at Offenbach and not at the Honda Research and Development Centre in Japan the way they do with most all new Japanese models or developments?"

If you really like to going into details, it's a prototype car, not prototype engine. And you didn't answer to my question above: Why team unexperienced in developing engines in Offenbach would have develop this engine? And even Honda site says that they don't do development, I've shown definitelly stronger proofs than yours since yours are only pious wishes.

-------------

Still, there isn't anything about Bosch joint venture with Denso, before 2003. Also, wikipedia without additional sources isn't reliable.
Look, IHI when want to produce turbochargers in Germany for Daimler also is establishing joint-venture. Why?

"Germany: IHI and Daimler joint venture to build turbocharger plant"

http://www.automotiveworld.com/news/components/66378-germany-ihi-and-daimler-joint-venture-to-build-turbocharger-plant

Turbospyder,
http://www.bosch.co.jp/en/japan/history/

"1973 June Founding of the Japan Electronic Control System Co., Ltd. (JECS), the first joint venture of Bosch in Japan between Robert Bosch GmbH, Nissan Motor Co. and Diesel Kiki Co., Ltd.. (JECS is merged into Atsugi Unisia and renamed to Unisia JECS Corporation in 1993. Unisia JECS Corp. is merged into Hitachi Unisia Automotive, Ltd. as a 100% subsidiary in 2002. Hitachi Unisia Automotive Ltd. is merged into Hitachi, Ltd. in 2004.)"

Where do they say that it was to enable Bosch to enter Japanese market? Wikipedia is wrong.

And actually Nippon ABS is under Bosch control and Bosch is producing ABS systems in Japan, no Nabtesco:
"1984 Nippon ABS Co., Ltd., formed by merger with Robert Bosch Co. (Germany).
[...]
1999 Manufacture and sale of hydraulic brake systems for automobiles is transferred to Bosch Brake Systems Co., Ltd., and operation of Yokosuka plant is placed under control of Bosch Brake Systems. Nippon ABS stock is sold to Bosch Brake Systems."

http://www.nabtesco.com/en/company/history_nabco.html

"1999 Oct. Bosch, Jidosha Kiki Co., Ltd., NABCO Ltd. (current Nabtesco Corporation), Nippon ABS, Ltd. and Zexel Corporation establish Bosch Braking Systems Co., Ltd., integrating their passenger car brake activities in Japan under the leadership of Bosch."

http://www.bosch.co.jp/en/japan/history/

-------

http://www.motorauthority.com/daimler-wants-to-be-europes-turbocharger-leader.html

"Daimler hopes to change that by developing its own turbocharging technology. [...] Mercedes currently sources more than 50% of its turbos from IHI Charging Systems International, a joint venture between Daimler and Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries of Japan, Mikulic revealed. The rest come from other suppliers such as BorgWarner and Honeywell (Garrett)."

First they formed a joint venture with IHI to learn about their technology and now they will be doing own turbochargers. This is how Mercedes is hoisted into a modern turbocharging technology. Note that they haven't formed joint ventures with Garret and BorgWarner. It's just like some Chinese companies are now doing. Thanks for tips that guided me to this.

TurboSpyder:
"Google the last sentence (in quotes) to find the source."

File not exist.

And this issue wasn't about closed parts market for new car but about allegedly closed aftermarket, replacement parts market:

"The U.S. is also seeking better access to Japan's huge market for replacement auto parts, which has been largely closed to foreigners through Japanese regulations, customs codes and cartels."

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/16/opinion/foreign-affairs-where-do-cars-come-from.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

And Japanese responses:
"Written Comments: Barriers to Access to the Auto Parts Replacement Market In Japan[...]
Comparisons of U.S. Requests and Japanese Responses"

http://www.jama.org/library/position061995.htm

This one is very interesting:
"As set forth below, JAMA addresses each of the principal erroneous allegations, made by various proponents of the punitive duties, with a brief statement of the facts."

http://www.jama.org/library/positon062195.htm

You BOTH need a chill pill (43LE and TurboSpyder). Can we please end this never-ending cockfest?

TurboSpyder:
"Now abcd needs to admit defeat and then we can go on."

Than I would must do it in opposition to logic -> admitting that they developed the engine becouse journalists were going to Offenbach to test it. In addition to what I've already shown you there's also additional fact, if this engine would be done in Offenbach than there would be official statement from Honda that it was developed by this engineeres in Offenbach just like in other cases:
"The Honda OSM was designed by Honda's R&D facility in Offenbach, Germany."
http://world.honda.com/news/2008/4080722British-International-Motor-Show/
Or like Acura ALMS engine developed in USA which is written on Honda web site like you already pointed out.

--------

"Prior to the Agreement, many U.S. and other foreign parts manufacturers were for all intents and purposes locked out of the Japanese automotive ***aftermarket.***"

TurboSpyder, one side is saying that the **replacement** parts market was closed and second that it wasn't (in links that I've shown you above), I wonder what were the end agreements between USA and Japan on this issue.

TurboSpyder, there were no engineers driving but journalists. I'm still keeping my opinion becouse of the facts that I've already shown. And there's no need to quote many times about Bosch ABS becouse I can look to posts above to read it.
Look here to see who has the most open market:
"Japan itself already has no tariffs on passengers cars, trucks and parts[...]
The European Union, however, where member country Germany is the world's biggest auto exporter, imposes duties of around 10 percent on passenger vehicles, 22 percent on trucks and five percent on parts."
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/asia/09/12/japan.cars/index.html

abcd,

You better stop before turbo asks his god to strike you down with lightning and thunder or make a bible fall on your head and knock you out. It's his only defense.

BTW turbo, I believe in some type of God, just not your brainwashed version of it. Unlike you, I don't believe everyone should believe my version.

TurboSpyder:
"abcd, you really are something else. The journalists didn't bring the prototype with Honda's new diesel engine to Offenbach - it was provided to them to drive by the engineers there."

I think this is obvious that they also had opportunity to drive it, but it was primary for test for journalists. As I already said I'm keeping my opinion.
----------
TurboSpyder:
"abcd, do you have an explanation as to why the Japanese manufacturers have a 95% share of the Japanese car market if the Japanese market is so open?"

Their explanation from 1995 is in one of my links above, you should exclude kei cars becouse they're not offered by any other manufacturer:

"The figures used by those alleging that the Japanese market is closed improperly include Japanese minicars which do not exist in the United States and Europe, and trucks that are rarely traded among countries in the comparison. Excluding these types of automobiles from the comparison shows that the share of imports in the Japanese market was 8.1 percent in 1994.[...]Specifically, the share of imports in the U.S., Germany, U.K., Italy, and France is 16, 16, 14, five and five percent respectively."

http://www.jama.org/library/positon062195.htm

Here is full data from 2007: 2953193 passenger cars
http://www.jama-english.jp/statistics/forecast/2009/081218CY2009.pdf
Here is import cars sales data: 230078 passenger cars
http://www.jaia-jp.org/e/stat/quick_report/200712sokuhou_e.htm
Market share of imports: 7.8%
So Japanese manufacturers have market share of 92.2%
I also found on this site history of imports in Japan, they say that market was opened in 1965:
http://www.jaia-jp.org/e/info/imported_car/transition.html

Here is data from German market from 2007:
http://www.vda.de/en/zahlen/jahreszahlen/neuzulassungen/
Market share of Garman manufacturers: 69.6%

So you see, German manufacturers have also big market share in Germany. And if they buy foreign cars they are mostly from Europe free trade countries like France and Italy(link above), Japanese manufacturers had market share of about 11% in 2003 in Europe and are offering cars in EVERY SEGMENT:
"Japanese carmakers increased their combined share of the western European market to 11.4 percent, up a whole percentage point from the previous year"
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UDO/is_12_16/ai_98956251/

But important fact is also that German manufacturers don't have factories in Japan so their cars are very expensive, Golf and Auris cost roughly the same in Poland (and probably in Europe) but in Japan:
"imports of course come at a price: a Golf for less than £12K sounds amazing until you discover you can buy an Auris here for £7688…"
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/autocarconfidential/archive/2008/07/24/big-in-japan.aspx

And this without tarrifs as I already pointed out:
"Japan itself already has no tariffs on passengers cars, trucks and parts"
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/asia/09/12/japan

continuation:

"Japan itself already has no tariffs on passengers cars, trucks and parts"
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/asia/09/12/japan.cars/index.html

While most of Japanese cars sold in Germany is MADE IN EUROPE in their factories in Europe and some are also partially developed in Europe e.g.Toyota Avensis and Auris, market share of cars made in Japan is small, becouse in the past when they weren't made in Europe there were big tariff bariers on them. If Germans will not offer more competitive prices they will never have bigger market share in Japan. That's where the difference between 92.2% and 69.6% reside (or 11% of Japanese imports in Europe and 7% of European imports in Japan), if Germans want to have reasults they must endeavour at least half as hard as Japanese in Europe.

And this was last thing from my side on this OFF TOPIC discussion. I presented you facts and my opinion, you can have your opinion.

Monkey see, monkey do,

EL34's whole life story...

haha this david is a funny guy.

David? He's always been partial to Lexus and Toyota. Almost too partial.

Partial bordering on delusional

Toyota admired? Some car enthusiasts may respect Toyota for the numbers they sell, and that is where it ends. Real enthusiasts realize that there are no more Toyota Sports cars, even the economy sports Celica is gone. All in favor of increased reliability and safety numbers.

Yes... cause they were selling soo well that they provided too much competition against the rest of their lineup so they decided to drop them *sarcasm*

Lexus is a division of Toyota not a seperate company. Ferrari has been racing cars since the 1950s. I understand david969 is biased towards Toyota but he normally has some truth to his comments. I don't remember the Supra racing out side of Japan.

Completely and utterly partial. Seriously delusional. But you have to admire that.

And besides that was 4wheelnews calling it that not Infiniti. They want to compeat not copy!

LOL. BMW Z4, like Nissan Z-car?

And yes, I know it's stupid question, but it's only respond to other stupid question.

The designation of each BMW Technik GmbH project begins with the letter "Z" which stands for "Zukunft," the German word for future.

Infiniti is already plannign on a hybrid variation of what was in the Essence. we will see them in the states maybe as early as the new M series this fall. but for sure by 2011.. this has already been posted on this website. also they plan on having a hybrid available on all models

Who's to say that the hybrid we get may be a diesel hybrid like Mercedes. As for somebody asking why "Infiniti" hasn't invested in hybrid technology, there's a Nissan Altima hybrid isn't there?

the altima is based on toyota technology, the infiniti product will be Nissan/Infiniti technology with gas engines for sure for US

VQ engine: vibrations at idle; check
Vibrations at High RPM; Check.
Oh boy, I can't wait to the diesel variant of that smooth running engine... :-)

I don't even know how to respond to this comment:

"A Toyota Supra or Celica has more soul or racing heritage than any Porsche or Ferrari. That's a fact."

My bicycle has more racing heritage than an Aston Martin, take that! Are you just throwing out random sentences hoping for a response??

TurboSpyder:
"Google the last sentence (in quotes) to find the source."

File not exist.

And this issue wasn't about closed parts market for new car but about allegedly closed aftermarket, replacement parts market:

"The U.S. is also seeking better access to Japan's huge market for replacement auto parts, which has been largely closed to foreigners through Japanese regulations, customs codes and cartels."

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/16/opinion/foreign-affairs-where-do-cars-come-from.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

And Japanese responses:
"Written Comments: Barriers to Access to the Auto Parts Replacement Market In Japan[...]
Comparisons of U.S. Requests and Japanese Responses"

http://www.jama.org/library/position061995.htm

This one is very interesting:
"As set forth below, JAMA addresses each of the principal erroneous allegations, made by various proponents of the punitive duties, with a brief statement of the facts."

http://www.jama.org/library/positon062195.htm

How far off topic can we get?

And Bosch injection? What diesel car has non-Bosch injection???

And a VQ-derived diesel? Huh? Nissan was selling diesels long before Renault bought them bringing their vast diesel experience to the mix.
There are piles of Nissan pickups and even some Maximas running around the US with diesel engines (from the factory).
Diesel Nissans are not new, just like diesel Toyotas are commonplace and produced in huge numbers around the world. (I suspect Toyota sells more diesel pickups than gas-powered, but those numbers are hard to research)

Nissans with diesels are normal.
Its only bringing them to North America (again) that's news...