Has Jaguar DESTROYED The Brand With The XF?

No they haven't destroyed the brand! Just brought it into the 21st century. Sometimes that means leaving things behind such as classic design etc. But if that is what is takes then so be it! You can't hold on to everything forever.

No. A car that brings people back to the Jaguar showrooms should be celebrated.

David969 is a troll.

this car has without a doubt saved this company. the S-type was a flop but also it was a nice car at the time. The XF is where jaguar needs to go and stop designing cars that were designed in the 70's

See Cadillac....and now Lincoln (for the most part). They had to basically re-invent both of the historical luxury carmakers in order to generate new, fresh interest in the brands.

And the other question is will anyone search one of these out on the used market 20 years from now?

Seems like a throwaway car to me...

001

But this has to be done in order to survive.

001, what does this sentence mean?

001:

| [...] but slap a Lexus, Infiniti, Acura or Hyundai logo [...]

It appers to me that you're quietly trying to degrade Japanase luxury brands by tying the up with Hyundai name. Koreans have just started to release luxury cars and are still strongly associated with cheap, affordable but rather inferior products. Is it your purpose to perform some guerilla marketing for the benefit of German luxury car makers?

I'm asking because if you didn't play by these rules, you would write something like this:

| [...] but slap a Lexus, Mercedes, Infiniti, BMW, Acura, Audi or
| Hyundai logo [...]

And then is this article itself. You're implying Jaguar DESTROYED (in capitals, they didn't destroy, they DESTROYED you suggest) their brand by releasing XF.

But you also know Jaguar XF defeated ALL (in capitalics, ALL) German luxury cars: Mercedes E class, Audi A6 and BMW 5 in tests conducted by rather unbiased American motoring magazines: Edmunds Insideline, Motortrend. Germans desperately tried to falsify the results by issuing their own the same comparo (AutoBild) in which BMW won (surprise surprise) but who cares about their blunt propaganda disguised as "independent motoring press". So the Jag is basically a better car then what Germans offer.

As an automotive insider, you also should have known that while virtually any brand in Europe posted sales decline in 2009, Jaguar posted massive increase in sales. Why? Because of the XF.

XF also looks very good. Not as good as the concept, but far better than, say Audi A6 or Mercedes E class.

So all the boxes does the car ticks. It ditches old school Jaguar styling patterns but that's exactly what customers wanted - see sales figures. And Jaguar invents its new form in a impressive, attractive way, becoming a very tough opponents for German luxury leage.

So you come up with a suggestion that "the Jaguar brand has been destroyed". Sorry, I meant DESTROYED.

Very suspicious, 001.


PS. I have a question for you to pass to the head of propaganda, 009. He recently told us the new Prius III tops pricewise higher than entry Lexus IS.

Does 009 know that rear wheel drive six cylinder naturally aspirated BMW 328i tops at $66.680 which is more than all wheel drive twin turbo V8 BMW X6 ($66.650)?

Why didn't he tell this to us?

MrBratwurst - With all due respect, while you are correct in stating that the XF beat out ALL the German rivals in several car magazine tests, I think even an informal poll amongst people you know, or people I know would indicate a preference towards the German cars over the Jaguar.

Does that mean the Jaguar isn't a good car? Of course not. In comparison to other cars in the Jaguar lineup it is a phenomenal car. Do I feel like I am sitting in a Ford Taurus however, yes. I think Agent 001 is correct in stating the XF may be a throw away car, however if its purpose is to save the brand, then it is a success.

I personally don't see people lusting after the Jaguar like they do other brands, nor do I see the loyal following that BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Lexus has managed to create.

We have seen it here, look how many times the Hyundai Genesis has worked its way into discussion in terms of learning and eventually probably beating the Germans and Lexus, to the best of my knowledge NO ONE has argued that case for Jaguar.

At the end of the day, any luxury car that reminds me of a Ford really isn't a luxury car at all. Perhaps that is why Alan Mulally continued to drive his Lexus LS versus ANY Ford product (which included Jaguar at the time) when he started at Ford.

-00J

Agent00J:

| I think even an informal poll amongst people you know, or people I
| know would indicate a preference towards the German cars over the
| Jaguar.

True. Brand perception is a long lasting phenomenon, that's why. But Jaguar is on their best way to change it.


| Do I feel like I am sitting in a Ford Taurus however, yes.

Couldn't agree with you less. You coudn't say something more unfair for the Jaguar as well.

Taurus is a large front wheel drive "good value" car. Jaguar XF is a proper RWD luxury limousine with styling cues of Aston Martin origin. Very different concepts.


| I think Agent 001 is correct in stating the XF may be a throw away car, however if its purpose is to save the brand, then it is a success.

The only logical explanation I see for 001 to explain this point of view is saying that Jaguar has lost their unique retro appeal that no other luxury cars offered. True that. But Jaguar traded it for another unique image of modern Aston Martin descent. Still no other luxury cars come up with this. Meanwhile there are more customers in the dealership.


| I personally don't see people lusting after the Jaguar like they do
| other brands, nor do I see the loyal following that BMW, Audi,
| Mercedes and Lexus has managed to create.

As mentioned, brand image cannot be changed within days. Jaguar carries the uncomfortable past of retro cars that catered to very few, WWII veterans included. This has changed but you'll have to wait for the effect.

And there will be effects. Currently owned by Indians, Jaguar is anything but short of cash. New line of diesel engines introduced in Europe (necessity there since Europeans don't understand hybrids) is on par with BMW best diesels (twinturbo 35d) and beats what Audi and Mercedes have to offer. XK, XF and the new XJ will carry successful new body lines. Jaguar is on their way.

BTW, if you want to reference big Fords, talk about Volvo S80 which is basically a premium Ford Mondeo with nice Swedish touch.


| We have seen it here, look how many times the Hyundai Genesis has
| worked its way [...]

And would you say this car destroys anything? Not likely cause it represents a move forward for Hyundai. So does the XF for Jaguar.


| At the end of the day, any luxury car that reminds me of a Ford really
| isn't a luxury car at all.

This is your personal opinion. As much as I respect it, it's not really backed up with non nogotiable facts that well.

Mr. Bratwurst - When I state I feel like I am sitting in a Taurus, I state that because aside from the unique gear selection dial, most of the switchgear is similar to, or exactly the same as that in a Ford.

Please note, I did not mention Volvo, you did. I don't see Volvo as a player in this segment.

I agree with you, with the proper money behind it, Jaguar can truly become world class again, but the perception of a warmed over Taurus is the impression I get. I may be wrong, my wife tells me I am all the time!

With that being said, I will state that on numerous occasions I have caught glimpse of the front of an XK mistaking it for a last generation Taurus. Is that a bad thing? I don't think Taurus owners mind.

Good discussion, and good points.

We can agree to disagree and still get along here.

-00J

— Agent00J

| I feel like I am sitting in a Taurus, I state that because aside from
| the unique gear selection dial, most of the switchgear is similar to,
| or exactly the same as that in a Ford. [...] but the perception of a
| warmed over Taurus is the impression I get. I may be wrong, my wife
| tells me I am all the time! [...] front of an XK mistaking it for a
| last generation Taurus. Is that a bad thing? I don't think Taurus
| owners mind.

These are valid points however you'd rather agree that it's a superficial judgement. Jaguar XF is likely to be a significantly different machine with better chassis, layout, balance and engineering of vital parts like an engine, a transmission or suspension when compared to Taurus. So downgrading it to Taurus just because of similarity/reusing of various control interface is a skin-deep evaluation.

On the other hand, this is exactly how most of us, humans, assess. I'm always surprised when engineers and product planners put a lot of effort in making a technically better, higher end car/product and then forget to subtly suggest it to customers by using same buttons. It's like they had no clue about psychology of human judgement. Why not spending few pennies more for new interface to break down with undesired associations?


| Please note, I did not mention Volvo, you did. I don't see Volvo as a
| player in this segment.

I did because it's exactly opposite of what Jaguar XF is. Volvo is superficially apart from Mondeo (especially in terms of the interior design) but underneath it's technically identical in many areas.


| We can agree to disagree and still get along here.

True that.

Mr. Bratwurst - In principal I agree with you, but lets face it, superficial judgment is exactly why you and me both would much rather pull up to a valet in a new BMW 7-Series of Mercedes S-Class versus a Hyundai Genesis NO MATTER how good the Genesis might be.

Same point regarding the Jaguar versus others in the class.

Superficial judgment takes the logic and reason out of play when it comes to cars. That is exactly what makes the luxury brands command premiums. Jaguar is on its way, and since it is now flush with cash, success can be achieved on all fronts, however at the end of the day when you are spending your hard earned money - being reminded of a lesser car does not bode well to the sales experience.

-00J

"Does 009 know that rear wheel drive six cylinder naturally aspirated BMW 328i tops at $66.680 which is more than all wheel drive twin turbo V8 BMW X6 ($66.650)?"

Bratwurst, nice try but the most expensive option combination possible for a 2009 328xi sedan would be $55245, and for a coupe it would be $55620.

Source: BMWUSA.com

So you did one of three things:

A) you made up numbers to prove your point,
B) you included all the dealer installed accessories, like the $4000 18" wheels to replace the 18" wheels that are already part of the M Sport Package, which you can't actually order a car with anyway and wouldn't regardless (aka you were being underhanded to make the numbers fit your argument), or
C) you just don't know what you're talking about.

I'm pretty sure it was "B) You were cheating" but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that it was "C) you were just being ignorant". If that is the case, since you're such a stickler for facts and sources you really should be more careful. If it was in fact "B) you were cheating", well, then you shouldn't assume other people won't be smart enough to recognize it.

— JRobUSC:

| Bratwurst, nice try but the most expensive option combination possible
| for a 2009 328xi sedan would be $55245, and for a coupe it would be
| $55620.

| Source: BMWUSA.com

| So you did one of three things:

| A) you made up numbers to prove your point,
| B) you included all the dealer installed accessories, like the $4000
| 18" wheels to replace the 18" [...]
| I'm pretty sure it was "B) You were cheating" but I'm going to give
| you the benefit of the doubt that it was "C) you were just being
| ignorant".

1. The only thing you were going to do is to waste my time.

2. Here we are: BMW 328i, not even all wheel drive xDrive, RWD only, six cylinders, 230HP with all the boxes ticked: $66.727

Screenshot: http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=328ifullyloaded67kusd.png

3. Accessory wheels on 3 series are 19', not 18'.

4. Base BMW X6 with a twin turbocharged 400HP V8 and STANDARD among others: all wheel drive (xDrive) + torque vectoring (Dynamic Performance Control), 19' wheels, automatic transmission, xenon headlighs, 10 speakers audio, front and rear park assist, cruise control, navigation and all the safety equipment (airbags, stability and traction control): $66.650

Screenshot: http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=x650ibase.png

5. You have now two options: if you have balls - to say "I apologize to you for my acusation" or to say screenshots have been photoshopped. Sadly, they haven't.

6. Waste my time no longer.

Link to BMW X6 screenshot comes ones again since I pasted the screenshot into MS Paint moving the selection, here comes the clear one:
http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=x650ibase.png

Bratwurst, apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit -- the last $12k of "options" on that vehicle are "accessories" that you cannot in fact order a 328i with. You have to buy them after the fact, from a dealership, and as such they would not be a part of the MSRP of the vehicle. They would not appear on a window sticker or an invoice for the car, they are "after the sale" items. I mentioned this phenomenon to you in my previous post when I asked whether you were A) making things up, B) lying, or C) ignorant. At least by providing the photos you did in fact prove that your initial statement was C) ignorance, and not B) lying. So I'm not going to apologize, but I am glad we cleared that up. It restores a little bit of my faith in your credibility to know that you weren't lying, you just didn't know what you were talking about.

oh, wait, you weren't just ignorant, you were purposely altering the figures with accessories that aren't actually part of the build of the vehicle just to skew the data to match your claim. AKA you were being underhanded and lying to back up your claims. Portable nav, satellite radio, and an iPod adapter as accessory installs on a vehicle that already has navigation, satellite radio, and iPod from the factory so they're double charged? Upgraded maintenance and warranty? Seriously? Credibility gone.

Mr Bratwurst- your options/configuration makes no sense and can't really evenbe done on some of the things you've added. One, it's impossible to add a short-throw shift kit to an automatic transmission, even BMW's steptronic. Also, you'd have to be absolutely insane to add portable navigation when you already have nav from the factory. Plus, no one really ever pays that much- just buy the same thing in a Nuvi, what it actually is. AND, thanks for helping with my SIRIUS stock, ordering it from the factory & having it dealer-installed also. Just out of curiosity, where does the second reciever mount? In the trunk or in YOUR trunk?

People usually do not like change. It's human psychology.

People usually don't like competition either. Hence this article.

Destroyed the brand? Really? I think not. I definitely get a rich, high end feeling when stepping into an XF. Both styling and quality have dramatically improved on this model. If any model destroyed the Jaguar brand, the X and S-type did it long ago. The XF is finally bringing the brand back to where it should have been.

Oh Please!

Jaguar created what many regard as the finest vehicle in its class, both aesthetically and dynamically, and they should be lauded for finally 'stepping outside of the box'.

If this car had a German badge, you biased fans-boys would be tripping all over your words of praise.

If you want to see vehicles that truly threaten brand image, just take a look at the hideously deformed 2010 Mercedes E-Class, or BMW's ill-conceived 2010 5-Series GT.

Enough Said

Point taken.

Jaguar was stuck in a retrowarp for decades. As beautiful as the Jags of the 70s and 80s were, time moves on. Styles change. Jag had to move on or die.

The car is less distinctive than older Jags, but everything is less distinctive.

"Seems like a throwaway..." 001

You mean, much like everything you post?

But you can't throw the Jag in a virtual trash can...

001

I have spent considerable time in both the new XF and XK and while both are attractive (especially the "R"s) I feel the interiors of both should be better- specifically the switchgear. I dont think they've really "lost" that Jag feeling- they've just gotten a little more with the times. That being said, the upcoming XJ has to be the "IT" car- complete with a bespoke interior and gorgeous exterior if Jag really wants to step up its game.

Bespoke interior much on the line of the new Aston Martin One-77? Now that is a car!

Agree. One model can represent that brand's heritage and "Jaguarness" and thats the XJ. The others in the lineup simply evolve from the jaguarness of the XJ.

What we have seen over the years with Jaguar is a re-hash of retro over and over. This practice did nothing for Jag. The XF shows a direction much needed. You wouldn't want such a brand to be like Buick, stuck in the past. The design language is way too distinct to be confused with a Lexus (with acception to the GS, which Jaguar studios originally designed the first generation model, could look like a Jag overall)

Jaguar did not design the original GS. It was designed by the Italian firm Giugaro. It was supposed to be a new Jaguar, but Jaguar turned it down and Lexus bought the design. The moniker 'GS' stood for 'Giugaro Sedan.'

Thank you pushrod, you are totally correct about that, I completely flubbed that fact.

The XF put Jaguar on the map again. The car that really destroyed the brand is the shitty X-Type.

I totally disagree. Jaguar created a fine luxury car that does almost everything well and it deserves to be praised. And it's light years better than the old generation with all its model, which looked very ugly and old fashioned ( and didn't sell ). Keep up the good work Jag!

I think the XF is an awesome car this car is even more stunning in person! Jaguar will definitely be on my shopping list!

We should be able to deboost articles!

I disagree with Agent001: Low sales on Jaguar products was related with old fashion designs; The Porsche 911 will have the same destiny if they do not try something new. There are a lot of beautyful sport cars that with all respect to Porsche, they look a lot better. The problem is that when you try to keep the identity of a company for to long, you miss the revolutionary steps. This will happen soon or later. I almost can garantee that the next 7 series won´t be so evolutionary, and instead of that it will be revolutionary. OLD generation is dying and the incomming generation is looking for modern cars. They concerns about design more than conservative looking. Any car that hold a design for too long won´t survive, the sales of Jaguar improve a lot and it is because the XF, and for sure the new XJ will do great on sales....even if you do not like it. Companies needs sales and If I have to trade design for sales to survive...I will....The beauty is on the eyes of the beholder, The XF seems to me as Jaguar and it is beautyful...and I´m talking as Mercedes fan.

The Porsche 911 does prove this adage wrong by continuing to sell despite the same basic design and I expect it to do this way for a while to come - yes, the basic design will not change. I hope not!

And Turbospyder is really a supremacist...you know what type.

I have owned a 1975 xj6 and now own a 1998 xj8L. The XF CONCEPT is what should have been produced...not the lame version now called the XF. I hope and pray the new XJ will carry the classic PROPER Jaguar lines and now depart into the copy cat lines that ALL other brands are striving for. The designers need to work harder at their jobs in making the newest models appeal to BOTH purists and the=ose looking for MODERN sleek design. WHY IS THIS SO FREEEKIN HARD?? The xj lineage has the sleekest lines every made, why would it be so challenging to bring into 2010??? The Benz cls is proof that a large 4 door can be low, sleek and sexy.
JAGUAR should be leading the way with this look but is NOT....GET ON THE BALL JAGUAR!!!!!

But DO NOT toss the history to the way side...EVOLVE...

Jaguars have always had quite a bit of chrome used inside and out of the cars, I hope this continues. The lack of it on the current xj is what makes it look so cheap.
I have had DOZENS of people comment on how they do like like the new xj but prefer the 1998-2003 models appearance.

SORRY FOR TYPOS ON LAST POST .... I WAS RUSHING!!!!
I have owned a 1975 xj6 and now own a 1998 xj8L. The XF CONCEPT is what should have been produced...not the lame version now called the XF. I hope and pray the new XJ will carry the classic PROPER Jaguar lines and NOT depart into the copy cat lines that ALL other brands are striving for.

The designers need to work harder at their jobs in making the newest models appeal to BOTH purists and theose looking for MODERN sleek design. WHY IS THIS SO FREEEKIN HARD??

The xj lineage has the sleekest lines every made, why would it be so challenging to bring into 2010??? The Benz CLS is proof that a large 4 door can be low, sleek and sexy.

JAGUAR should be leading the way with this look but is NOT....GET ON THE BALL JAGUAR!!!!!

But DO NOT toss the history to the way side...EVOLVE...

Jaguars have always had quite a bit of chrome used inside and out of the cars, I hope this continues. The lack of it on the current xj is what makes it look so cheap.

I have had DOZENS of people comment on how they do NOT like the CURRENT xj... but prefer the 1998-2003 models appearance instead. hmmmm....why is that?

Step it up Jaguar...

Here's my problem with the Jag.

They have made two major design mistakes with this car as well as some minor ones.

Porsche designer Michael Mauer told me the two key things in designing a car as iconic as a 911 are two-fold.

1. The next 911 has to look like a 911.
2. And it has to unmistakeably look like the 'NEW' 911.

So

1. The XF in my opinion doesn't look like a Jaguar
2. And it doesn't look like the 'NEW' Jaguar

I think the car says to the world we are ashamed of our heritage and past so we dumped it.

Not saying it should be retro...not at all.

But you have to design a car so if you take the badges off, you KNOW what kind of car it is.

You would mistake this car as a product from the others, not Jaguar, if the badges were removed.

And then the interior...

Oh, the Lincolness and Fusioness of it all!

Just look...





001

-001

-Porsche designer Michael Mauer told me the two key things in
-designing a car as iconic as a 911 are two-fold.

-1. The next 911 has to look like a 911.
-2. And it has to unmistakeably look like the 'NEW' 911.

-So

-1. The XF in my opinion doesn't look like a Jaguar
-2. And it doesn't look like the 'NEW' Jaguar

I see what you're trying to say, but to keep it consistant, maybe you should say that the new 911 should look like a Porsche or the new XF needs to look like the old XF. And since there is no previous XF, Jaguar has reinvented their brand starting with this car.
-Also a 10 Best in Car & Drivers lineup.

hey kids? didnt a indian company buy jaguar from BMW?? not too long ago??

Idiot.
BMW did not sell Jaguar to Tata, Ford Did.

isnt it kinda pathetic that England doesnt own any of the so called british Brands???? such as
Bentley=Volkswagen,
Mini=BMW
Rolls Royce=BMW,
vauxhall=GM
and finally Jaguar=TATA motors india!!
kids this are the facts.but you can use your chubby lil fingers and google it for yourselves...

and i almost forgot
rover=chinese company
AMG=chinese random car company
Land Rover=BMW

Land Rover is owned by Tata too...not BMW.

AGENT 001....well put. You are soOOOoo correct.
But im sure the designers at Jaguar make a decent salary...why is it so hard to do both??? geeez.

Make it UNMISTAKABLE as JAG yet the NEW version!!!!!! IS THIS SO HARD???? DAMN...LET ME DESIGN IT!

I was gonna buy an XF until I sat in one. I felt like I was in a GM RENTAL CAR. horrid!
So I stuck with my elegant, plush, UNMISTAKABLE 1998 XJ8L.

Sorry...I need REAL wood....REAL chrome...REAL leather.

I am waiting for the July 9 birth of this "new image" xj.

Something tells me I will be hunting for a used Maserati Maserati Quattroporte you can find one for $50-60 easy now.

The XF didn't destroy Jaguar, it saved them.

I think the ugly S-Type ruined their image for style

The XF didn't hurt Jag, being owned by a car company the builds a $2000 car hurt.

Being owned by Ford and pouring Jag parts in to Ford cars really hurt.

Have being passed for one company to the next, like a bad social diseases, may have killed it.

001, as a fellow agent (well, across the pond that is) I agree that it has a Lincolness to the interior etc.....but......

then I look a the new XFR with 510 HP and Brick Red leather seats and think well, that is HOT.....

Point being that it all rests on the new XJ. If it is a 100k Lincoln then bloody hell we're doomed. But..........if it is more like a Bentley, which Ian McCallum swears it is then you best beware....

WTF? why do you kids get all Emo when i expose the facts?
that goes for that Emo kid 199Speedingcrackhead..callin people names for no reason...that kid obviously has the downs disease.
Jaguar is like the retarded kid that nobody wants...even Ford got sick of it and had to sell it to sum third world country...TATA india...
Jaguar the Fail british crap.

Jaguar is not destroyed because of the interior of the XF. While the aluminum would not be my first choice for an interior for a car of this grade it's still not a bad place to be. I think if Jaguar leather wrapped the aluminum that faces the driver and passenger and put some nicer wood grain in the car it will change the look drastically.

The exterior is one of the best looking in it's segment I believe. It is a true contender against the 5 series, E-Class, A6 most definitely.

Ford is what ruined Jaguar. After Jaguar ruined themselves.

The X-Type was a big mistake. Let's take a normal Ford Mondeo, add AWD (to cover up the fact the the car was made from a FWD economy sedan), put an Jaguar badge on it and sell it for the same price that they sell a BMW 3-series for. LOL!! Whoever's idea that was should be ridiculed for life.

Call me crazy, but I still think the front of this car looks like a cross between the last Monte Carlo (headlights) and a Taurus (grill). Interior's not bad and the rear looks pretty nice, but I just don't get the hype about this car. That's just me though...

http://www.gmphotostore.com/images/53218093_pr.jpg

http://www.cwwcardesign.com/cars/pics/ford_taurus_coupe.jpg

it just makes me sick to the stomach when you kid compare Jaguar to Lexus... kids get some education for F sake! Jaguar is a Indian owned company!! and before it was owned by ford or GM... cme on kids dont try to be funny with your british fail technology... as i posted earlier..doeasnt it give you a clue a bout British car companies when they all go bankrupt and are owned by random car brands...
Jaguar=TATA
lmfao pathetic

They should've thrown the leaping Jag emblem on the hood...Would look better & maintain some of that "lost" heritage.

HAS EVEWRYONE HERE SEE THIS SPY VIDEO OF THE NEW XJ????

CLICK THE LINE THAT SAYS SPY VIDEO AT BOTTOM...

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/dc/Search?q=xj&rP=1&Go=Go#

Lord my typing sucks!!!!!!

Whatever guys, the point is so mute about the XF. Its the new face of Jag, its selling well and the new XJ will favor the XF. Done. Opinions like butt holes aplenty. Don't like, don't purchase. Porsche has plenty of cars fot the middle aged.

Please. While some Jags have been beautiful, the brand is primarily all about the balancing of sporting performance with luxury. When Jag's clicking, it's like nothing else. The sheet metal is secondary. And if the XF is a little too conservative, it's still gorgeous.