Why Are Car Companies So Skittish About Bringing Smaller Displacement Clean Diesels To the USA?

Once again let me reiterate Audi AG is incredible, Audi NA sucks.

That said I just returned from a 700 mile road trip in a BMW 335d. It was remarkable, fast and powerful, and endless torque. Traveling over hills, though canyons and at steady (legal) speed of 80 mph it returned 37.9 miles per gallon over the trip.

America isn’t afraid of Diesel cars, their uneducated about them. Europe is afraid of America not buying them.

Sadly most people dont understand that our govt prevent diesels from entering our country by allowing whimsidaisical liberal "environmentalists" to write each state's environmental regs.


Sure, Mercedes & VW have diesel in USA, but check the really technical records... Mercedes alone has very numerous regulatory deficiencies which they pay fines for. Most other mainstream OEMs (Ford/GM/Honda/etc) won't pay and therefore wont provide diesels in our country.

The #1 reason why diesels aren't in USA is very simple, emissions regs are too strict.

All automakers would love to bring diesels to the US, but CARB (yes you goddamn liberal "environmentalists") won't allow diesels here.

Without revealing too much of my personal background/experience, I can say that automakers can provide rather cheap, clean diesels to the public if whackjob "environmentalists" would let them.

Problem is, these same whackos wont' allow clean emissions... oh no. They want super-duper-ultra-clean emissions, which is great in theory, but impossible in reality. When you add a DPF, Urea injection, oxidation catalysts, regeneration, and all the thousands of diagnostic functions that monitor these new systems, you can very easily add thousand to the costs of an already clean diesel.

Just another example of how our federal government is failing us by allowing arrogant liberals to have their own emissions regs (California) while hiding behind "state's rights".

Can we declare Ch11 for our govt? Seriously, can we replace our board of directors (congress) and restructure our liabilities (laws/regulations)?

Not like I'd know anything about diesel engines & regulations (sarcasm)....

I disagree that it is impossible to meet the clean diesel requirements, mercedes is well on its way with all their bluefficiency etc. concepts. Without strict regulations their wouldn't be a motivation to develop the technology. At the same time, if diesels have higher emissions than gasoline powered cars, the US market will be more likely to look at hybrids because they will have the high gas mileage in addition to being better for the environment. If clean diesel can be brought to the US it will be easier to market because it will get gas mileage equal to a hybrid for a cheaper price and still be better for the environment.

When refineries went from Low Sulfur Diesel (500ppm) to Ultra Low Sufur Diesel (15ppm) they found that the sulfactant level rose... meaning that the water was "glued" to the fuel making it harder to separate. Furthermore, the refineries developed techniques to extract more diesel fuel from a barrel of crude... but this new stuff isn't as stable as fuel from three years ago and it breaks down faster (absorbs water from the air and then this leads to fuel breakdown or "sludge" particles).

The hesitation of car manufacturers to bring diesels to North America is that they don't want to risk thier reputation on the very likely possibility of a bad fuel issue. Since Diesel hasn't quite caught on, the chance of getting bad fuel in some parts of North America is really high. Bad fuel plays havoc with injectors and the new "clean" diesel engines have very high pressure with very low tollerances for "sludge" and water particles.

Will BMW warranty an injector that has gone bad? Honestly, with clean fuel, the engine should be bulletproof... but who is going to pay for a fuel issue? Certainly not Exxon! I think this is the main reason car manufacturers are hesitant to pioneer "clean" diesel cars in North America. Filter technology is not quite up to the task with how quickly new Ultra low Sulfer Diesel fuel degrades and holds water.

Don't tell that to CARB; I bet half of those idiots think Carbon Dioxide is a pollutant.

As great as it would be to have diesel cars readily available in the U.S. their is a lack of demand due to the fact that the US lacks the infrastructure necessary to provide the desire for diesel. Very few gas stations in the urban areas actually sell diesel, only those that are in agricultural areas or near highways, areas that have a lot of large truck and semi circulation.
The younger generations don't want diesel because they either don't understand it or don't live close enough to a gas station with diesel.
middle aged generations don't see them as a good investment because their are so few on the market.
Older generations remember and still think diesels are loud and obnoxious.
So if a company that does not already have a strong diesel following in the US (like VW and Audi) wants to sell diesels they are going to have to market them like crazy in order to sell a decent volume.

I can relate to the lack of infrastructure problem. This past weekend I had to drive a diesel moving truck from Indiana to Florida. Diesel is all over the mdiwest. But, when you get in Florida it's almost nonexistent. I was sweating, thinking I'd run out of fuel before I'd ever find a diesel pump.

The stigma that surrounds diesel cars here in the U.S. is mostly gone. Everyone knows they're built much better today. The biggest things holding comsumers back is lack of availability, lack of infrastructure, senseless emission addons that only complicate things further, and the fact that a diesel vehicle is a long term investment and not a 5-year turnaround car.

$2.31 gas and $2.81 for the diesel (Bay Area)

thats the reason.

528i

apples to apples plz

avg prices here in Dallas are

$1.84 Regular
$1.97 Mid
$2.10 Premium
$2.01 Diesel

Most luxury cars now a days (including Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW) require premium) Now many people run regular in these tanks but the fact remains when using the recommended fuel in the cars diesel would actually be cheap than premium.

Agent001, I hereby officially answer your question:

Hybrids vs diesels vs gassers comparison:
- 5-year REAL LIFE COST OF OWNERSHIP: fuel, repair and totals (fuel, repairs, maintenance, financing, depreciation, taxes, insurance)
- environmental impact


Fuel costs:

Toyota Prius II Hybrid:______$5,285 [1]
Honda Civic Hybrid:__________$6,076 [2]
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI DIESEL:_____$8,742 [4]
VW Jetta 2.0 GLI gas:________$10,330 [3]
VW Jetta 180HP gas turbo:____$11,175 [5]


Repairs:

Toyota Prius II:_____________$2,291 [1]
Honda Civic Hybrid:__________$2,365 [2]
VW Jetta 2.0 gas:____________$2,684 [3]
VW Jetta 180HP gas turbo:____$3,066 [5]
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI DIESEL:_____$3,540 [4]


TOTAL costs of ownership - 5 years:

Honda Civic Hybrid:_________ $28,359 [2]
Toyota Prius II:____________ $29,669 [1]
VW Jetta 2.0 gas:___________ $30,451 [3]
VW Jetta 180HP gas turbo:___ $33,859 [5]
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI DIESEL:____ $34,305 [4]


EPA Air Pollution Score (the higher the better):

Toyota Prius II:____________8 out of 10
Honda Civic Hybrid:_________6 out of 10
VW Jetta 2.0 gas:___________6 out of 10
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI DIESEL:____1 out of 10
VW Jetta 180HP gas turbo:___not available


0-60 times:

VW Jetta 1.8 Turbo gas: ____7.7 sec (180HP)[10]
VW Jetta 2.0 gas____________~10.5 sec
Toyota Prius II:____________10.9 sec [12]
Honda Civic Hybrid:_________12.4 sec [12]
Vw Jetta 1.9 TDI____________14.9 sec (90 HP) [11]


Environmental performance: by driving a Toyota Prius II over 310.000 miles (battery lifespan [6][7]) instead of Volkswagen Jetta 1.9 TDI you save 2090 US gallons of crude oil and emit 27 TONS CO2 less.

Footnotes:
- the all new 2009 VW Jetta 2.0 TDI "Clean" (?) Diesel gets EPA air pollution rating = 6 out of 10 only, two places lower that 2004 Toyota Prius [8][9]
- 1.9 TDI was one the most durable diesels ever made by Volkswagen, its successor, the 2.0 TDI is considered significantly less reliable that 1.9 TDI
- current VW Jetta 2.0 TDI (common rail) also consumes more fuel that previous Jetta 1.9 TDI
- current VW Jetta 2.0 TDI (common rail) adds complexity when compared with 1.9 TDI: new are ultra high pressure common rail fuel pump, particulate filter, NOx reduction catalyst. Thus maintenance and repairs cost are likely to be even higher than in case of 1.9 TDI


Sources:

[1] http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/toyota/prius/100326481/cto.html?setzip=10007&vdp=off
[2] http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/honda/civic/100344092/cto.html?setzip=10007&vdp=off
[3] http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/volkswagen/jetta/100352546/cto.html?setzip=10007&vdp=off
[4] Jetta 1.9 TDI costs: http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/volkswagen/jetta/100352548/cto.html?setzip=10007&vdp=off
[5] Jetta Turbo 180HP gasser costs: http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/volkswagen/jetta/100352551/cto.html?setzip=10007&vdp=off
[6] http://www.themotorreport.com.au/6042/prius-taxi-belts-out-half-a-million-klicks/
[7] http://www.autotrader

[7] http://www.autotrader.com/research/article/35392/taxis-show-hybrid-battery-durability.jsp
[8] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=25262
[9] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2004&make=Toyota&model=Prius&hiddenField=Findacar
[10] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=47010
[11] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=71989
[12] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=108445/pageId=67436

EPA air pollution score comes from fueleconomy.gov site

Environmental impact calculations use EPA energy impact score and CO2 emissions formulas [9]:
Mileage for Jetta 1.9 TDI corrected in favour of the car from combined 36 MPG to combined 6l/100~=39 MPG because of real life customer observation (32 owners) found here:
Source: http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebersicht/50-Volkswagen/454-Bora.html?fueltype=1&constyear_s=2002&constyear_e=2005&power_e=80

And then I answer the question even more:

Toyota Camry Hybrid vs VW Passat B6 TDI DIESEL vs Nissan Altima Hybrid vs Honda Accord Hybrid
- 5 year TOTAL COSTS of ownerhip
- environmental performance

Fuel:

Toyota Camry Hybrid:_____$7,365 [1]
Nissan Altima Hybrid: ___$7,175 [3]
Honda Accord Hybrid:_____$8,717 [2]
VW Passat B6 TDI DIESEL: $11,625 [4]


Repairs:

Toyota Camry Hybrid:_____$1,353 [1]
Nissan Altima Hybrid:____$1,353 [3]
Honda Accord Hybrid:_____$2,074 [2]
VW Passat B6 TDI DIESEL:_$3,373 [4]


TOTAL costs:

Nissan Altima Hybrid:____$36,751 [3]
Honda Accord Hybrid:_____$36,148 [2]
Toyota Camry Hybrid:_____$37,972 [1]
VW Passat B6 TDI DIESEL: Totals: $41,219 [4]


0-60 time:

Nissan Altima Hybrid:____ 7.6 sec [5]
Toyota Camry Hybrid:_____ 8.4 sec [5]
Honda Accord Hybrid:____ ~8.0 sec [6]
VW Passat B6 TDI DIESEL:_ 10.4 [7]


EPA Air pollution score:

Toyota Camry Hybrid:_____ 8 out of 10 [8]
Honda Accord Hybrid:______6 out of 10 [9]
VW Passat TDI DIESEL:_____1 out of 10* [10]
Nissan Altima Hybrid:____ not available

* diesels with added particulate filters and NOx traps/AdBlue injection are likely to get 6 out of 10, exactly as 2009 VW Jetta TDI

Clean (?) Diesel got [11].


ENVIRONMENTAL PERFORMANCE:

By driving a Toyota Camry Hybrid over 310.000 miles (battery lifespan [12][13]) instead of a VW Passat TDI DIESEL you save ~1870 US gallons of crude oil and emit 23 TONS of CO2 less [14].


[1] http://www.edmunds.com/used/2007/toyota/camryhybrid/100701540/cto.html?setzip=10007&vdp=off
[2] http://www.edmunds.com/used/2005/honda/accord/100454104/cto.html?setzip=10007&vdp=off
[3] http://www.edmunds.com/used/2007/nissan/altimahybrid/100851544/cto.html?setzip=10007&vdp=off
[4] http://www.edmunds.com/used/2005/volkswagen/passat/100474332/cto.html?setzip=10007&vdp=off
[5] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=121755/pageId=127070
[6] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=103272
[7] http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=103323
[8] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2007&make=Toyota&model=Camry%20Hybrid&hiddenField=Findacar
[9] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2005&make=Honda&model=Accord%20Hybrid&hiddenField=Findacar
[10] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=20443
[11] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=25262
[12] http://www.themotorreport.com.au/6042/prius-taxi-belts-out-half-a-million-klicks/
[13] http://www.autotrader.com/research/article/35392/taxis-show-hybrid-battery-durability.jsp
[14] EPA formulas used, real life observed fuel economy used instead of rating:
6,89 l / 100 km = 34,1385462 miles per gallon for the Passat TDI DIESEL (282 samples [15] as of today) and 36,4 MPG for Camry Hybrid (99 samples [16] as of today)
[15] http://tinyurl.com/cx4or8
[16] http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2007&make=Toyota&model=C

I think your math is excellent, and I really appreciate your posting it, but I have a though - what about the fact that a typical diesel engine lasts twice as long as a gas engine? In pickup trucks, for example, used diesel trucks are worth many thousands of dollars more than a used gasoline truck of similar mileage, options, etc. Isn't it safe to assume that people will pay more for a diesel with 150k miles than they will for a hybrid with 150k? If so, does the higher value of the diesel make up for some or all of the higher cost of ownership?

My other thought - most refineries are optimized towards producing gasoline. If the demand for diesel fuel were to increase, at some point refineries would start to produce more diesel to meet this demand. If we lived in a "diesel economy" where gasoline wasn't the overwhelmingly popular option, diesel fuel likely wouldn't be any more expensive than gasoline (seeing as how it's similarly priced in the Euro markets). That would further erode the cost advantage that gasoline and hybrid gasoline engines have.

Still, excellent work. Your effort is much appreciated.

I try to avoid diving into the comments on this site (for obvious reasons) and just use it for the jumps to articles. But I must say this thread had intelligent posts, was full of good facts and references, and didn't include any insults at each other. Thanks MrBratwurst and the others who just improved my opinion of this website.

Here here. Has anyone that runs the site considered an age requirement? It sounds silly, but I keep thinking a lot of the idiotic comments I usually read here (not in this thread of course) are made by misfit children. :-)

Corn-infused poop as a bio-fuel?

Discuss.

An additional reason for diesel is the durability of the engines, but they are currently on VW and MB which are not known to be the most reliable cars on the market. I'll wait and see how Infiniti's diesels are received. I would definitely buy one. At 260hp, it will be the same hp as the first G35 sedan GAS engine. Amazing.

There are three primary reasons;

(1) Diesel engines have a bad reputation in the US (strike 1)
(2) Diesel engines cost more than gasoline fueled vehicles (strike 2)
(3) In most places in the US, diesel costs more per gallon than gasoline (strike 3, you're out!)

There may be long term savings, but its hard to get consumers interested in a product that has a horrible reputation and is not only more expensive to buy but also more expensive to operate (per gallon).

Diesel is an uphill battle all the way.

thstone is absolutely correct on why diesel cars haven't taken off in the US. I would say perception is the biggest reason out of the three. But a little education (on true costs) and a test drive would fix many of peoples' doubts.

I live in Dallas and my next car will be a Diesel even though gas is about as cheap as it gets here. Every time we travel to Europe we drive diesel and every time I come away impressed with the torque, mileage and driving pleasure. I do think American will continue to pursue more powerful engines as long as fuel remains below $4 per gallon. If diesel were cheaper like in Europe and gas was $4 a gallon I know you would see an increase in diesel demand from the driving public.

Because, in North America, diesel fuel costs more than gasoline.

Diesel hybrid systems would be a great move. I wonder how really efficient they'd be? It is too bad we tied our hands with this short sighted emissions "psychosis". The world is not going to end with alittle more CO2 in the air. Same issue with the Nuclear power "haters". Put us 20 years behind the curve. Time to wake up!

Diesel fuel is artificially priced high in the US to protect local car companies. Should one of the big 3 ever design a good diesel engine you can bet diesel prices would go down - this will, of course, never happen. All the great technology and efficiency of these euro diesels does not mean much if you pay more for the engine and more for gas than a regular gasoline engine, wiping away any benefits. What a shame.

I emailed VOLVO the other day about them bringing their diesel Drive vehicles to the usa....this is their response:

Thank you for your interest in Volvo.

Diesels models are not offered by Volvo Cars of North America for the United States Market.
Presently there are no plans to bring in diesels . Volvo will continue to work on developing more fuel efficient cars not just to meet the statutory requirements but also because our customers demand them.

In about three years we will begin to offer alternatives to gas and diesel, power trains that go beyond diesels in emissions and economy.

Thank you for taking the time to contact Volvo.

Sincerely,

Eve Lehrer

Volvo Personal Shopper

Interesting cost comparison between hybrids, diesels and gas cars. It remains to be seen what the "true cost" of owning a hybrid is as their batteries reach their replacement age somewhere after 5 years.

It was my understanding that one of the main reasons for diesels in NA hsving problems meeting pollutions standards was because of the "dirtier" diesel fuel used in the US as compared to what was mandated for Europe. It's not entirely clear whether US and European standards are now equivalent but there is no questions that you can't beat hybrids for cleanliness. Whether it's more ecomonical considering their price premium is another question entirely.

I live in Hawaii and I've seen diesel fuel here priced at over $1.00 more than premium gas. Pricing seems to be poorly regulated. It makes little sense to buy a diesel if the dealers start price gouging. Unfortunate.