The Bigger They Are The Harder They Fall - BMW's 7-Series Unseated From It's Undisputed Perch?

"undisputed perch"

who said that ?

oo9 doesnt make any sense

AGENT009 said "...but nobody builds a more elegant and enjoyable car than [the BMW 7-series'] colleagues in engineering and design."

I think the world disagrees with you. BMW makes great-driving, gadget-laden, ergonomically-challenged cars with "edgy", polarizing styling, and which need to visit the shop more often than some owners like. And they appeal to a fiercely-devoted audience. But not to all. Or most.

BMW has carved out a niche that isn't going away any time soon. What you're seeing, is just a *small* shift in the popularity of that niche.

I sorry steve u must have VW confussed with BMW.....just wanted to point that out for you.

Badgewhore-

Obviously you’ve never driven the car.

Ive driven it and I agree with Badgewhore. Give me any other car in BMW's lineup for fun. This one isnt any.

Among cars of this Size, the 750 will hold its own against the S-Class or Audi or XJ.

I should know i raced S-Classes and A8s on the Autobahn with the 750 and i always came out winner.

Got Mullered by an A6 (Dont know what was in the Bay) I do know it was not an S6 or RS6 cause the Exhausts did not match those of S or RS.

Over Half of the racing was at Night on unlit AutoBahns at speeds exceeding 150mph

Are you getting this from somekind of article? Otherwise, I do not see the relevance of your post.

"The new 750Li's looks and performance recall the cars that made the 7-series the clear leader among luxury sedans priced in the low six figures, but tough competition from the Audi A8, Mercedes-Benz S-class and the new Porsche Panamera has knocked the 750Li off its perch above other big German luxury sedans. It's good, but no longer the undisputable best."

Stop making false and completely unfounded claims, Agent009. Since when was the 7-series the undisputed best? Maybe in your mind, Agent009, was the BMW 7-series the undisputed leader, but in the minds of luxury car buyers the Mercedes-Benz S-class has ALWAYS been the benchmark of the segment. Just look at the sales of the Benz S-class to the BMW 7-series globally over the past 10 years for clear proof. If BMW keeps making their cars so complicated, it is easy to see why the Mercedes-Benz S-class will continue to rule the high-end luxury sedan segment, just as it ALWAYS HAS.

try reading the article before you post -- he was quoting it, not making a statement.

show me proof MR "Mercedes-Benz S-class has ALWAYS been the benchmark" AND practice what you preach "Stop making false and completely unfounded claims"

You know what I think? We need to stop this flamewar because it will never end.

I personally am a driver of an beautifully crafted S550 and I think it's one awesome car. While the S-Class has always been the marque name in it's segment I believe the 7 series may be joining it as a marque. Both the S-Class and the 7er are great cars and are luxurious. You simply can not lose with either one. So everyone calm down and enjoy the fact we have another awesome option to purchase when looking for a full size luxury sedan.

You want luxury, comfort, with techy equipment with a very quiet cabin go get yourself an S-class, you won't ever be disappointed. If you want a luxurious yet sporty full size sedan that still is soft enough to feel embedded in luxury but still has that umph on to go then the 7 series is your choice, you won't ever be disappointed.

That's all i have to say about that. The only reason why everyone's arguing is because you all are comparing two great cars LOL. Isn't that a little silly???

I am trying to figure out what undisputed perech, as their are lots of cars in this class that are better.

Ja ja ,.....to say that is as to say that the C63 is better than the M3 in the track....Please The undisputed king is the S class, 7 series is always trying to surpass the yardstick which is the S class, in the same way MB is always using the M3 to improve the driving on the C Class. Finaly even the old (current) S class still preffered for most of the people looking for Luxury cars. S class rules. As an exampple the "NEW" 760LI have 535 HP from a V12 With "Advanced TwinTurbo Technology" of 550 lb-ft at 1500 rpm 6.0, the S600 class have a 510 HP TwinTurbo of 612 lb-ft at 1800 rpm with 5.5. As far as I see the MB engine still up to the challenge....and that is an old engine. S65 too much for the 6.0 BMW. S600 or S63 are more than enough to take care of the New 760. And I alreay saw the profile of the new A8, if the front and the rear are as good as the profile, the 7 series will FORCED to go back to drawing board. If you can't see that then your have a blid love for BMW, the main objection that I have against it, is the external design...UGLY.

there's more to it then just absolute power figures. Magazines have complained about the "ON/OFF" nature of those Benz turbo V12's for years. At first there's no power, so you give it some gas, and then there's too much power. They're exceptionally difficult to drive smoothly. The reviews of the 760 have been the opposite, every review has said it's the best version of the car.

You buy the 760 over the 750 because it's the best version of the car. You buy the S600/S65 because they're the most expensive versions of the car.

By the way, Top Gear just did a segment pitting the 760Li against the S63 because they're priced similarly in England. The 760Li won.

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2009/11/16/top-gear-is-back-with-the-760il-vs-s63-amg/

The 750i xDrive also just beat a Panamera 4S in a German magazine.

The new 7-Series has gotten nothing but raves from every magazine that's tested it outside of MotorTrend. I understand there are a lot of BMW haters on here, but give credit where it's due.

top gear 760li vs. S63 AMG = BMW wins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeZOed31owc

c&d 750li vs S550 = BMW wins
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q2/2009_bmw_750li_vs._2009_mercedes-benz_s550-comparison_tests

not a single magazine promote Corolla or Camry, yet they are the most popular car on the planet earth.

magazines don't rate cars the average person would. they put 0% emphasis on reliability, 10% on price and 20% on the badge and 70% on sportiness. while an average people would care 10% about the sportiness (let's see how your M3 handles better than a civic in L.A. where you are lucky to average 30 mile per), 50% on price and 40% on reliability.

The 760Li Biturbo V12 beat a N/A V8 S63 AMG? Am I the only one who isn't surprised?

I've driven the previous generation CL600 V12 Biturbo on two occasions when I had a summer job at MB in Germany where I live. The engine response is instantaneous and it was one of the few cars I have driven that didn't have a noticeable turbo-lag. Besides, V12 S600's are bought for status - not "driving" so razor sharp handling or engine response aren't really a priority.

Wimmer

their pricing is similar, hence the comparo. As usual, Mercedes knows how to overprice their ultra cars.

"The 760Li Biturbo V12 beat a N/A V8 S63 AMG? Am I the only one who isn't surprised?"

they cost the same, ant the 760 M-Sport is the closest thing to an M version of the car. They're competitors, like it or not, as is the S600.

the guy who wrote the article isn't that bright. He complains that the front parking sensors turn on when you go into Reverse because there's "hardly a high instance of front end collisions in Reverse". Wrong. This is a big car -- personally I find it useful when I am maneuvering in Reverse to have the front sensors on, it helps pulling in and out of parking spaces and garages without swiping the front end against the car next to you. Frankly on any car that has sensors in the front it would be moronic for them NOT to be on when I am in Reverse.

He also complained about the "five step process of turning off the car". Um... it's one step. Well two, I suppose, since he counts having to put the car in Park. But the two steps are "put the car in Park, press the START/STOP button". That's it. And technically you don't even have to put the car in Park -- if you hit the START/STOP button while the car is in gear, it AUTOMATICALLY puts it in Park. Even if you DID have to put the car in Park first, which you don't, those are the same steps EVERY OTHER CAR HAS. His issue seems to be with the fact that when you first hit START/STOP the engine turns off but the electronics continue to run. Again, that's a convenience feature -- I have pulled into my garage on many occassions while using the Bluetooth phone system for a business call. Most cars my choices would be "hang up and call them back from inside after turning off the car" or "keep the car running and continue the call while filling the garage with exhaust gas". With my BMW I have a third choice -- "turn off the engine and continue the call until it's done". If I want everything turned off, all I have to do is press the START/STOP button a second time, or lock the doors, or DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for 10 minutes and they turn off automatically.

Yeah, what a huge detriment to the experience those two features are. I wish reviewers would spend more than five minutes with a car before writing about them, or at the very least, put more than five seconds of thought into why things might be the way they are. Those two should have been obvious.

If there is a posible challenger in the Horizon for the S class......belive it or not , could be the A8 if they put a powerful engine under the hood...I like Bimmers , but watchout Audi is moving quicker than BMW and MB right now...

I love the comments from some of the people on this review...

Mark,I really don't know how you're a car reviewer. You can't even figure out how to turn a BMW off. You hold the button for 2 seconds for God's sake!!!!!!While getting service done to my BMW at the dealer, I went and checked out this new 7-series. And boy will I say this is an awesome car. It's not complicated as Mark here puts it. If you have half a brain and can get out of your domestic cheerleader outfit you'd be able to understand all the technology within the vehicle in less than 10-15 minutes. Yes Mark, get your domestic cheerleader uniform off ASAP.

This vehicle is really not that complicated to operate. In a very short time all of the functionality becomes very intuitive. I can not imagine owning another brand of vehicle. My wife also drives BMWs and she recently purchased a new Infiniti G35. After 2 weeks of ownership she was tradining it in for another BMW.

Here Phelan goes again, testing a car that practically no one can afford, especially around here? Why bother?

When you find a $100K Cadillac let me know, I would like to lease one.....

Mark you may want to check with your circulation Dept. and Advertising Dept. to check on how many FREEPS are sold in Germany and how many dollars are shipped to the FREEP for advertising. You used a page and a half to push a BMW. I searched for a BMW dealer in Detroit and found None. There's a few in suburbia: Bavarian Motor Village, Ltd. Eastpointe - Shelby Twp. - BMW of Ann Arbor - Ann Arbor Erhard BMW - Bloomfield Hills - Farmington Hills.___How many of these dealers contribute to the tax base in Detroit (Detroit-home base for the Detroit Newspaper Company)? How many of the owners of these $100K BMW's contribute in any way to the tax base in Detroit? How many of these individuals have home deliver of the FREEP or Detroit News? How many of them even purchase a paper? You may want to start pushing a few Cadillac's or Lincoln MK S's & MK T's, all of which are fine motor car's.You are part of the reason the advertising dollar is shrinking at the News & FREEP. You can reverse it...

Funny, how each area of the country reacts.

All I can say is that my daily driver (2009 BMW 750li) is simply the finest luxury sedan I have ever driven.

The twin-turbo is the best 8 ever made, the handling and drive is unequaled by anything in the segment, has the best nav/electronics of any car on the planet right now (just the nav screen alone is like none other in any car right now...size and resolution is amazing) and it just keeps rewarding you, the more you drive it.

If there was any criticism of the car, I'm not 100% sold on the side 3/4 view and the comfort access is VERY ladylike...only works when it feels like it.

If I was talking about the the other cars it competes with i could tear them apart in comparison.

I am really looking forward to the new Audi A8 coming soon though and hope it blows me away.

In my opinion, thi

Spot on 001!

Forget 2 seconds, just tap it twice.

Once to turn the engine off and move the steering wheel away other to switch electronics off.

I do agree with you on the Comfort Access thing. I thought it was just me it happened to. The MB and Audi systems seem better in my opinion.

The reviewer seem like an idiot!! complaining about turning the car off!??! actually you dont even have to put the the most recent bmw's into park before pressing the stop/start button; it does it itself when the button is pressed!

As I've mentioned before I've driven the 750/760 and S550/63/65 and the Benz is the winner- Much better looking IMO and a classier interior. The new F10 is boooooring to me, the looks and the interior- regardless of how responsive the TTV8 is. Now that being said I really like the last gen E65/66. Especially the B7- amazing car with an interesting interior and exterior Bangle looks in retrospect look much better. As far as being complicated? No. The new 7er is not. Heck the S550 has a 600 page manual!!! Nonetheless I'd take a little more complicated Bangleized bimmer all day long over the bland stuff Munich has decided should make the rounds now......

to each his/her own. Looks are subjective, and personally I like the front end of the Benz more than the front end of the BMW (especially if the Benz has the AMG Sport Package or is a real AMG), but I think the new 7 is much more striking and distinctive looking from every other angle. From the side, the rear 3/4 view, and the back, the 7er is (IMO) the best looking vehicle in the segment. Again, my opinion. The interior is less subjective to me -- I just don't see how anyone could spend time in both (which I have) and not come away thinking the 7er is nicer than the S inside. But again, that's just me. Just as I was shocked at how much nicer the previous generation E-class interior was compared to a 2004-2007 5-Series, I was "wowed" at how much nicer the 7er is inside than the S (especially if the 7er has the BMW Individual interior and ceramic controls). There's a lot more wood and leather in the BMW, and the Benz has a surprising amount of exposed plastic on the dash (including the drawers in the center stack, which is odd because they were obviously modeled after the previous generation 7er, only in that car they were wood-faced).

Anyway, they're both excellent vehicles, and I'd be happy to drive either of them.

JRobUSC: Hey I am not denying the qualities of the BMW. Is an driver oriented car, which is good, I can understand that it is able to beat the heavier Benz, however, still that do not means the it is the benchmark of the luxury cars. The Benchmark is the Benz. To drive a car is just matter of get used to it. Anyone can drive an M3 fast, but get real, that does not happen with the C63 cause is heavier and it have more power, so it requires more expertise to drive it fast. My point is that the NEW 7 is not up to the challenge. The S is old but still and amazing car and the same goes for the MB V12 engines. As soon as MB put the next generation of S class you will see BMW trying to reach MB, MB instead of that will surpass any new goal placed by BMW, then BMW will do something to reach Benz, but in most of the cases it will meet the requirements to reach the new Benchmark attained by Benz. Regarding the electronics, I agree with you, My Cadillac STS keeps all electronics working for at least 10 minutes then everything goes of. BMW and MB are manufactures that use to copy features that they have in they cars: Ambience lighting on the S class was copied by 7; Illuminated door sill with manufacturer logo, same history. There are some New features not common on luxury cars that you in the New 7: Illuminated handle in each door, I'm sure MB will copy that one in the next models and all other Luxury car manufacturers. Finaly if you realy think that to drive the 760Il Smoothly, think twice: That car have the Mr Hide clone as the S600 or S65 with 550 Lb-ft at 1500 rpm, just touching the accelerator will make you pay for the tires, so you will have to get used to be carefull with the accelerator. As far as I know S600 or S65 or 760IL are not smashing the rear end of other cars (may be toyota <:-O). I saw the videos, and the BMW 760 will spend (now) as much money in tires as any S600 or S65. Do you want an smooth car?, buy a Lexus, I don't, MB, AUDI or BMW all the way. At least till Chinese or Indian or Japanese buy them, then I will have to see.

I would still take a Lexus LS600h any day over its German counterparts simply because of the reliable tech you get.
The BMW has definite design cues taken from the Lexus, and indeed is an impressive vehicle, but after driving in one as a passenger I believe the Lexus is smoother and just feels more comfortable.

david999

Take a look at a 2004 5er you'll see were Lexus got thoughs cues.

Are you nuts 1995e34?

If the Idiot could not figure out how to switch of the BMW in 2 steps then he has no Business testing vehicles.

Took the 730d li from Munich to Zurich, then Bern, then back to Munich.
Then swapped to 750Li and took that from Munich to London, then Amsterdam, Frankfurt, London, Frankfurt..... Total Distance covered in 3 weeks 8,041km.

Took a while to figure out all the Gizmos in the car, One feature i thank God for was the Collision Warning System, less than 5 mins after exiting Munich Airport car park i joined the Motorway and still trying to program the Satnav would have plowed into a vehicle travelling on the slow lane had the system not SHREIKED LOUDLY making me look up and swerve around the vehicle. (Thank you BMW)

Another Really good feature is that one of the many cameras in the car reads the Speed Limits Posted on the road you are on and relays it on the Dash or Heads Up Display even temporary speed near worksites. When i got to UK it automatically recalculated so in UK (70) shows up on the disp as 113.

Also unlike in the CL500, in the 750LI when you push the switch to move from Comfort to Sport you can actually feel the difference in throtle response and suspension firmness.

Never got to toy around with the Rear Ent Package but my friends and Nephew and Niece seemed to love it.

I was left Very Impressed with the BMW.

Agent 009,

Once again your article is ridden with flaws.
1. The 7 series was never the class leader- I believe that claim can be made of the S-Class.
2. Ergonomics-wise, it was never the 7 series that showed leadership, but the A8.

Sorry to say, but this is the biggest joke of an article there is...Five steps to park? Isn't it like that with most conventional cars?

1) step on brakes
2) Go from "D" to "P"
3) release brakes
4) turn ignition off
5) Remove key (if you still need one)

This is just a big joke...

In the case of the 7 it is:
1 Step on Brake
2 Push P button on Joystick
3 Tap Start/Stop Button 2 times.

That is it. You do not have to insert the key in the 7, Hell i could not even find a hole in which to insert the fob.

If anything, this new 7 series is the benchmark, while the old one wasn't even half as good, but priced cheaply. I am a BMW fan, but the last generation 7 series never appealed to me. It looked bloated from all angles, and seemed boxy compared to the latest S-class. Inside, the S-class was light years ahead in terms of materials used and ergonomics. But the latest 7 series fixed all these issues. I bought one because I simply couldn't say no after I took the car for a test drive. It did everything almost perfectly. It was extremely comfortable, the materials used all over the interior are top notch, making the S class lack behind in comparison. The drive was amazing... a perfect mix between handling and comfort. Did both better than anyone else. The technology blows any other car in the market today, and the engine's smoothness and response to throttle are best in class without any comparison.

From the outside, it looked almost upmarket compared to the Benz. All you have to do is place them side by side to see the tacky lines of the Benz compared to the elegant lines of the 7. Not saying the Benz doesn't look good, but in comparison to the 7 series, it loses its shine. The only problem with the 7 series is the pricing.. its a bit steep. But once you test drive the car, you'll understand why...

It's the 1st BMW that doesn't lack behind in anything! A complete package by all means.

I drove the S Class the brakes were mushy and it under steered like a pig, was fast as hell but I could not read the gauges in the sun because it is a tv screen not real dials.
I drove the Jaguar XJ...not the new one not out yet. It handled better then the S class, had better brake feel, and felt just as comfortable. The engine however was no where near as good as the Benz.
Did not drive BMW...don't want to...i can't figure out how the I drive works when I played with it at the dealer and walked out it was FUGLY.
The Audi A8 I looked at was also equally crappy with the MMI system...Did not drive so I ahve no other frame of reference.
At the end of the day you can get a used Maserati Quattroporte with 7-8,000 miles on it for 85 grand...that's a better car, with a nicer interior, better handling and guaranteed to make more panties wet!

LOL...."Indisputed perch above other big German luxury sedans"...LOL