Is The Honeymoon Over? Lexus LF-A Already Being Criticized As Underpowered

lol

I think the feeling is that rather then a 552hp car, when you drive it in the city if feels more like a 354ft-lbs car... which it is. A base corvette has 50 ft-lbs more and weighs less than the LFA.

— Joe_Limon:

> I think the feeling is that rather then a 552hp car,
> when you drive it in the city if feels more like a 354ft-lbs car...
> which it is. A base corvette has 50 ft-lbs more and weighs less than
> the LFA.

You often state that you study mechanical engineering but either this claim is false or you're the most clueless student in the academy.

Corvette C6 rev limiter is at 6500 rpm, Lexus LFA rev limiter is at 9500 rpm. This means that gear ratios and/or final drive ratio in the Lexus are much shorter, thus providing much greater torque multiplication than in the Chevrolet.

This generates much higher torque at wheels, where its twisting force actually does the propulsion. That's why the LFA is significantly faster.

These are most elementary aspects of automotive physics. Since you've just proved you fail to understand them, your opinion on majority of technical subjects is actually worthless twaddle.

What you said is true, but, in the city this car will never see above 6000rpm.

People always shift well before the redline when not on a race track. All this power then goes unused. Sure the higher rpm range means you can keep accelerating in lower gears longer, but at the end of the day nobody does. lol, can you imagine someone keeping this car at 6500rpm while cruising at 40-50mph? I can't.

Also, don't insult my knowledge, I am fully aware of my argument and still fully stand behind it.

— Joe_Limon:

> What you said is true, but, in the city this car will never
> see above 6000rpm.

But, in the city, this car will always see its shorter gear ratios and/or shorter final drive ratio thus higher torque multiplication ratio.

Drivetrain does not get magically swapped when you enter the downtown.

Thus, in ANY revs, torque of Lexus LFA engine will get multiplied more (therefore raised) before it reaches rear wheels.

downtoearth: Good point, most people don't understand the interaction between torque and gear ratio. They'll only look at peak torque.

Joe: A base corvette also has 74 ft-lbs more and weighs about the same as the F430. So what exactly is your point?

LOL you can make the gears more aggressive, but only so much before second gear becomes equivalent to the first gear. In reality the final drive ratio really doesn't matter much, you can't really say that a car has a more aggressive gear ratio, since all you would need to do in a less aggressive setup would be shift down. You are over simplifying the cars drive train there are after all more than one gear ratio. Where the torque value matters is if you have any gear setup, and you are traveling 60mph at 2500rpm, (i.e. say 5th gear in the vette or 6th gear for the more "aggressive" lfa) the vette will take off faster all the way to 6500rpm. I guess what I'm trying to say to you... is that if you are traveling a certain speed at a certain rpm, it doesn't matter what your other gear ratios are.

And don't say that it isn't reasonable to compare the vette taking off in 5th while the lfa is in 6th. We are talking about daily driving and what happens when you hit the gas. 2500rpm is a reasonable rev range, nobody drives around with high gas sucking revs.

joe_lemon:
"...if you have any gear setup, and you are traveling 60mph at 2500rpm, (i.e. say 5th gear in the vette or 6th gear for the more "aggressive" lfa) the vette will take off faster all the way to 6500rpm. I guess what I'm trying to say to you... is that if you are traveling a certain speed at a certain rpm, it doesn't matter what your other gear ratios are."

try as you mite, you still only spout NONSENSE displaying your IGNORANCE.

so what happens when the vette reaches 6500 rpm and RUNS OUT OF STEAM? in ANY given gear? the driver is forced to shift, then having LESS torque delivered.
meanwhile, the lexus, in any given equivalent gear (producing similar torque multiplication), CONTINUES TO RUN with a torque advantage all the way up to 9500 rpm. and by the time HE shifts, the vette (already left in the dust) will already be most of the way to redline which will require another shift and DROP in accelerative power compared to the lexus.

given that mfgts always TUNE their gear ratio choices and number of gears, a higher revving engine will almost ALWAYS have an advantage over a lower revving engine.

if you love torque over HP so much over a high revver, go drive a DIESEL. and have fun *racing* with THAT! lol!

given that manufacturers...

We are talking about drivers perception. I am not saying that the lower powered vette is better. I am saying that as far as driving it goes and when people shift BEFORE REDLINE in every day scenarios you will not see the full torque curve of the LFA. And it will seem unimpressive when you don't rev the balls out of it... which is 99% of the time lol.

— Joe_Limon:

> We are talking about drivers perception. I am not saying that the
> lower powered vette is better. I am saying that as far as driving it
> goes and when people shift BEFORE REDLINE in every day scenarios you
> will not see the full torque curve of the LFA.

Apparently I wasted my time since you fail to accept laws of physics. In vain hope that I can make a difference, thought, I'll repeat myself.

Chevy Vette rev range is 0-6500 rmp. Lexus LFA rev range is 0-9500 rpm.

9500/6500=1.46

You can therefore make the N-th arbitrary gear together with final drive 1.46 shorter in the Lexus LFA. This causes following:
- LFA engine will usually stay at 1.46x higher rpm at ANY given speed in ANY given the same gear when compared to the Vette
- LFA engine torque is multiplied 1.46x more than Vette engine torque, at ANY point in its rev range

Noticed I emphasize the word ANY? Not at the top of the rev range. In ANY revs.

Result is, that when you floor the LFA, at ANY speed in ANY gear, its engine will start accelerating the car from 1.46x higher rpms than the Vette engine will do.

You'll get the power you want. Every time.

So why the LFA engine has lower torque than the Vette engine? Simple. Because it has smaller capacity and was built to rev much higher. All what the raw torque number tells you is the RATIO of power to REVOLUTIONS this power is developed at. Without taking rpm into account, concluding from torque about acceleration makes absolutely no sense and shows that one fails to understand torque.

Why turbo diesels ALWAYS have higher torque than similarly powerful(1) turbocharged gasoline engines? Because the rev lower while producing similar power(1).

Does it make diesels any faster (at any speed, in any gear)? Not at all.

ffs, I totally see your argument and it makes sense, if you are in a racing scenario. However. Why is it so hard for you to understand the not so subtle differences of driving on the street vs racing?

First of all, you fail to realize or are still totally ignoring the fact that different gears have different ratios. You still want to compare similar gears. At which point if both cars were at 60mph, and the vette was in a gear causing it to rev to 2500rpm, the lexus would be 1.45 times that at 3625rpm. Do you drive around town at 3625rpm? I sure the hell don't. In a daily driving scenario a driver will always shift to a gear that keeps the rpm in an area where they are comfortable. If the 5th gear in the corvette is as long as the 6th gear in the LFA, then the driver will choose to go to a higher gear in the LFA so to keep the rpms down then they would in the vette.

Get your head out of your ass, I am not talking about racing. I am talking about daily driving and why low torque high revving engines very rarely see peak power on the street.

That wasn't my argument from the start, I don't think it needs another 50hp, I think it needs another 100ft-lbs.

joe, maybe when you finally get out of school and can afford to actually OWN a car, you won't make so many 'theoretical' but in real life STUPID comments.

you obviously have NEVER driven (or even ridden) in any performance vehicle with relatively small displacement. once again, the KEY in performance is HP. torque is always SECONDARY. and if you only get that at high revs, well that's what trannys are for.

high torque at low revs only have the advantage of LUGGING in higher gears; (relatively) low torque in ANY engine is compensated for by gears.

your statement that high revving engines are never wound out, off the race track, is totally WRONG. ever hear of short shifting? a driver could easily --and QUICKLY-- hit redline in the lower gears, then skip all the way over to TOP gear to simply cruise at ANY in town speed.

and he'd likely outdrag most hi-torque, slow revving vehicles in the process. often not even using 3rd gear. going 1-2-6. (that's how I outdragged 'vettes with my puny 0.25L ninja in city limits! fully enjoying the 14,000 rpm redline!)

Only 552-horsepower? Who wrote this stupid crap? 552-hp are completely overpowered for any car including supercars. What also matters is how the car performs and the LF-A seems like a good track car. Horsepower isn't everything. Auto journalists of all people should know that.

Now is 552 enough? Depends on the car I guess. Now be clear a lack of horsepower in this car will not deter any sales. The buyer's of this car are not going to care as much about performance, it is more about exclusivity.

Well if you consider the pricing of this car and the other cars competeting with it then yes it is kind off underpowered.
Audi's RS6 boosts 580hp for example...

Who ever wrote that article has to be an insecure German car fan boy..
That's why the guy who wrote it, is not an Auto Journalist at all..

Exactly.
This guy decalres a FWD GTI '....useable driver enjoyment' - LOL.
I don't enjoy FWD, at least not the cornering part of it.

Whoever wrote this article is baiting for comments and arguments. Its how this site works. So nothing personal guys.

Hmm, and the Reventon isn't overpriced?

The Reventon is very overpriced.

As is the veyron. I dont care if it has 16 cylinders, 1 mil+ dollars is too much for any car

On the flip-side, I wonder how "little" horsepower it could have and still sell for the same price.... 400HP?......300HP?

What if it didn't have a motor at all? Lol....

How many people here have more then 552 HP under their hoods?
Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 205HP
Subaru WRX don't know but its over stock at COBB Tuning stage 1
Ferrari 365 Daytona GTB/4 300HP

LF-A is an exceptional vehicle.

The drawback might be it too long to come to market and the drive train was rarely updated from the concept. The end result was a world class supercar in 2005, but not 2010.

The same thing happened to the NSX. This segment thrives on radical change, something that Acura and Lexus are prepared to deal with on a yearly basis.

Not to mention the fact that it looks like a Supra with a body kit.

The Ferrari was rated about 340BHp but that's a lil "optimistic"
I remember when the Dodge Viper only had 400hp and that was the end of the world!!

And #3, make sure your floor mats are secure!

why?

range rover, ferrari, maserati, jaguar--all make spectacular cars!

i'd counter that with...if you have good taste don't buy japanese.

if you want reliable electronic accessories, and NOT overpay for every little feature, don't buy german.

i don't buy a car for 'electronic accessories.' that's why people buy japanese cars--it distract them from how incredibly boring looking and boring to drive the cars are...

LF-A = Fail

You mean not achieving the same MPG as your KIA? L O L

You wish I owned a KIA. LOL!!!

If anyone bothered to read the article before commenting about how the author was a Eurotrash homer, they'd see the guy who wrote it actually was saying the car is amazing and deserves to be recognized as such, but that it won't get the credit it deserves because the figures aren't high enough to "wow" you.

He also said something else that I agree with 100% -- you have to do something to justify the fact that for the price of one of these you could get both a similarly performing Ferrari F458 Italia AND a panty-dropping gorgeous Aston Martin DB9. If I was choosing between getting both of those or one of these, I'd take the Ferrari and Aston in a heartbeat and never look back.

Um, not quite.

The author of this "article" is a devout anti-Lexus poster. I say this based on the many years of coming to this site and reading his stuff.

True, the newbies and slight of intellect might not always see his subtle digs at Lexus, but they are always there.

The very fact this "story" was posted by him proves my point. He's presenting his own opinions as if they were coming from others in the press. But as you can clearly see, those "sources" aren't listed.

If you want cheap unusable power buy an american V8.

There is never unusable horsepower only limited driver skills.

What a pathetic post! What does horsepower have to do with anything? The LF-A 's Nurburgring time speaks for itself, it may not have the pedigree that your ferraris & Porsches of this world have, it is worth it. The car's structure and materials contribute to the price. This is perfection and I think the car may be over engineered but it up there with the best .

Maybe it's Nurburgring lap times has something to do with "unintended acceleration" as well?

What a pathetic post! What does horsepower have to do with anything? The LF-A 's Nurburgring time speaks for itself, it may not have the pedigree that your ferraris & Porsches of this world have, it is worth it. The car's structure and materials contribute to the price. This is perfection and I think the car may be over engineered but it up there with the best .

How many production engines can rev like the LF-A's V10 does? Very few!

I can think of a pretty good one -- how about the aforementioned Ferrari 458 Italia? It has a 4.5L V8 with more horsepower AND more torque than the 5.0L V10 in the LF-A.
Some other bonuses:
1) It performs virtually identically.
2) It looks like a 2011 Ferrari instead of a 1994 Supra.
3) Most importantly if I'm spending that kind of money, it's a Ferrari instead of a Lexus.
4) You could get a 458 for the performance and an Aston Martin DB9 for the sex appeal (or if you prefer uber comfort to a second sports car, a MB S63, BMW 760Li or Porsche Panamera) together for the price of one LF-A.

Is that enough reasons or do we need to keep going?

In the end it won't matter, someone with enough money to afford a 458 can also afford an LF-A and vice versa, and very well might get both. But if you're trying to justify one over the other, well, you can't justify the LF-A over the 458.

People buying a car don't have to "justify" anything to random dudes on autospies.com.

If someone buys an LFA instead of a Ferrari that's their choice.

Only a person perpetually stuck in a Jr. High mindset would give a damn about what others think of their choice of car.

Although I like Lexus cars, but I have to admit the LF-A is underpowered, just WAY over priced and it does look like a new Supra. The Nissan GT-R makes more torque than this, and its a 3.8 V6. This car should've at least had 600 hps, and its torque should have been in the high 400s. And as for its price, it should have been below $200K. But, it does have wonderful technology, wonderful performance, noise and all that, but it will fail when compared against the SLR or a Ferrari.

Horsepower means absolutely nothing if it doesn't translate into performance. Any Joe Blow can stuff a big engine into a light car to generate some crazy straight line speeds. Big deal. Go buy a good ol' American muscle of the 60's if such primitive brute force is what you're after, but expect to be the first to spin out when the track bends.

The LFA on the other hand is all about balanced vehicle dynamics rather than excessively unusable power, and it takes true skills and technologies to achieve that. The fact that the LFA (and the GT-R) beats many supercars of much higher horsepower on the track proves that it's not about how much horsepower you have, but how you use it. The Japanese have apparently mastered this art better than anyone else.

Well GTR got only 480BHP and have beaten almost all cars at everything even the ones with 600BHP(Dodge Viper SRT10, SL65 AMGs even SLR...etc).

So i think LFA got enough power, it is the details which would provide extra performance.

JUGNU

keep in mind, that is 480hp at the wheels so it's actually putting out over 500hp (somewhere in the neighbourhood of 520 crank hp), after awd drivetrain losses though you are left with 480hp. If it wasn't for its awesome awd torque vectoring the GTR would have ended up on the bottom of the heap.

also, correct me if I am wrong... but doesn't both the viper still hold a much better ring time? I guess now you're left comparing it to the heavyweight rwd auto tranny benzes...

not to mention, the LFA gets all it's HP out of a mere 4.7l/293 cid engine. which is also NATURALLY ASPIRATED.

even the vaunted germans have to rely on turbochargers these days, to get the HP ratings they do.

automotive purists have always looked on "boosted" engines with a bit of disdain. it takes TRUE engineering skill to get high specific HP figures WITHOUT the cheap solution of boosting, OR sheer cubes as with the Vette and Viper.

Ok, #1..Joe_Limon is most definately an idiot! #2..downtoearth is brilliant! #3..Lexsucks is most definately idiot No.2 along with JRobUSC who will soon be eating those words when they put the 458 Italia up against the Lexus LFA. Mr. Akio Toyodas target was definately Ferrari and he knew it was more than just horsepower & pedigree. Even though the LFA has been around since 2000, it was still at least a decade ahead of Ferrari. Trust me, them Italians aint smarter than those Japanese. Let's see there's...Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba etc...and dont forget the upcoming Koreans Hyndai, LG and the list goes on. Let's see Ferrari has a host of technology wraped up in electronics....Uhm let me think here a moment!...I cant seem to think of one friggin noteable or reliable appliance or electronic gadget that worth mentioning,.....that's because their aint none because all the Italians have are cars and it's going to take more than race car technology to beat them Japanese. It's just a matter of time before they become the Number One maker of Supercars...Mark My Words!

+5.

just about all europeans recognize that the most RELIABLE electronics and electrical eqpt. comes from japan. (or even china, from japanese designs and plants). yeah, maybe blaupunkt can design fancy radios too, but they still cannot match japanese RELIABILITY.

then on the mechanical design aspects of italy vs. japan: again there is the reliability factor. but there are also PERFORMANCE factors too. why is the most popular scooter in italy, a HONDA? why are the most popular sport bikes across europe all japanese?

and even the mighty FERRARI, deigned to buy F1 designs from HONDA when the latter got bored winning all the time and quit F1.

even TODAY, when you compare superbikes, the italians can only (barely) match the japanese with engines that are 20% bigger! because the japanese 1000cc Fours are otherwise so overwhelmingly DOMINANT, italian twins are allowed 1200cc.

The Honeymoon aint even begun yet for the Lexus LFA.........

8 years of prototypes AND 6+ years more time than all the supercars mentioned and it has LESS power. enough said.

Enough said about your intelligence indeed.

It's like saying Bruce Lee with all his years of training still didn't have muscles nearly as big as Ronnie Coleman's in his early years. Guess who would win in a fight?

Lexus has Nothing to worry about because they will sell all 500 copy of the Lexus LF-A. This is their first time and they already kick ass left and right already. Lack of horsepower? Ha...ha...ha..

And I wonder what would a second generation Lexus LF-A would do to the supercars worlds once it come out? Probably the same the Nissan GTR did by kidding all the other supercars ass left and right and laughing in their face = )

Did anyone see the video on Topgear where the Lexus LF-A got the Fastest wet laptime by Beating a lot of other supercars. Here is the link to the video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfTflPA_rH8

Plust the Lexus LFA only need another 48hp to crack the 600hp category. I am pretty sure their engineers can tweak the engine a lot bit to hit this mark.

What does a V10 4.8 liter with 552 hp sound like?

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=kempowarrior#p/f/10/XkvcPFevMO0

It sounded dam Good. One of the few production car to sound like the a Formula one car. Just look at the way it rev, UNREAL Freaking REal.

Even if the LFA had 2000 horsepower it would still not be enough for the anti-Lexus community.

Some people aren't going to like it. Some memembers of the automotive press will poo poo it for whatever reason pops in their little minds.

But in reality, who gives a damn? I'm sure everyone that owns, drives, or even just rides along in an LFA will have a smile on their face.

If I had the money to buy a Lexus LF-A I would get it one in a heart beat in Pearl white as well. Like the one in the picture. And I don't really give SHIT about what anyone or auto journalist think about my car.

I don't know why they making direspectful comment like this, it not like they're going to buy it.

Who ever is going to drive this baby will have a BIG GRIN or SMILE on their face everytime they drive it, because I know I will if it it was me = )

Only if Toyot deemed you cool enough to buy one.

whats with the side scoop they have there by the rear window? is it an ashtray?

Type707 what planet are you on...planet stupido?...come on bro you gotta be in the know!.....It''s guys like you that dont know jack about this kind of automotive excellence. The front top corner of the LFA channels massive air straight shot between the driver/passenger windows and specially designed side view mirrors then down into the top part of specially designed aerodynamic driver and passenger doors then forced into these little ocean shaped scoops that allow this massive air flow to cool those specially designed dual radiators which also serves as aids to the LFAs weight distribution. By the way, imagine yourself (Type707) as the ashes from that ridiculous ashtray analogy when you asked: "whas with the side scoop they have there by the rear window? Is it an ashtray?...........LFA is totally out of your league brother!

I can't believe you used "specially" three times in that description to describe aerodynamically optimized shapes.

Lex...you're just an idiot. Nuff said.

Correction: "little ocean wave shaped scoops"......

what honeymoon? haters have been attacking this car from day one. I don't here anyone attacking the Aston Martin DBS for being slower and less powerful than the Lexus LFA, or the Aston Martin One-77 for costing $1,5 million while being barely faster than the LFA