Pedal Gate 2010: Research Firm Insists That Blaming The Pedal Is A Red Herring

If there is then its not Toyota's fault it was 1) customer error or 2) a supplier problem.

91z4me, where did you study logic? If it does turn out to be true that the pedals are not entirely the culprit, it does NOT follow that it is either driver error or a supplier problem. You can't conclude anything of the sort. What it suggests to me is that there is a deeper problem with the electronics and that the drive by wire system needs more study.

Yeah, I was joking about the windshield wiper comment above mine. In reference to Toyota initially blaming the customers for problems of unintended acceleration, then the floormats, then blaming a supplier.

Good to see that you didn't catch that and that your Toyota cronies didn't either.

FYI I did take a logic class at the University of Louisville and got an A. I also hold 2 bachelor degrees and a doctoral degree just in case you were wondering.

I agree! When you "google" sudden acceleration, the top Searches related to sudden acceleration in this order are;

1. Toyota sudden acceleration
2. Lexus sudden acceleration
3. Prius sudden acceleration

I get the feeling Toyota just trying to use America quality as a scapegoat and not address the real issut.

FYI, that Google search doesn't mean $h!t.

EL, the google search demonstrates how the public is reacting. Beforehand if you searched Toyota it likely brought up fan forums or advertising, now it is bringing up potential problems due to the increased traffic in those searches.

Poor Toyota, it kinda sucks when blame shifting backfires now doesn't it?

Is Toyota fixing the problem or not?

During the years 1973 and 1987 GM built the C/K pickup truck that clamed the lives of 1,800 people in crashed that resulted in people dying by fire.

Those people burned to death because GM placed the gas tanks outside the frame and in an accident the tanks split like melons.

The US Government stood around with their thumbs up their a$$e$ because they didn't want to force GM into a recall and make sure those slack Union workers had a job.

still, the relative SCALES are most relevant.

1,800 deaths vs. less than 10, with less than 20 injuries.

The time frame (a whole generation ago) makes the a non compairson. Time Technologhy and flat out trail and error from 40 years ago makes this irrelevent.

Dude that picture is cool! The cars are saluting someone/-thing.

so what is there left to blame? the ECM system? I thought we already established that neither toyota nor the NHTSA can find any "electrical gremlins" in the system.

so only four things can cause the "claimed" sudden aceleration.
1) The pedal (which is being addressed)
2) the floor mats (which was addressed)
3) the ECM (which was deemed to be not a factor)
4) HUMAN ERROR

hmm, seems like only number 4 is left for investigation.

Can you give a link that shows that the ecu isn't a factor? From numerous reports that I have read most of these cars are taking off on their own without any pedal application. If it was floor mats or the pedal itself being crap then it would still only happen after being floored...

certainly

here is one for lexus:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/our-point-of-view-post.aspx?id=2234

quote: "Just last week NHTSA denied a request for an additional investigation of unwanted and unintended acceleration of model year 2007 Lexus ES350 vehicles and model years 2002-2003 Lexus ES300. After conducting an extensive technical review of the issue, including interviews with consumers who had complained of unwanted acceleration, NHTSA concluded that “…the only defect trend related to vehicle speed control in the subject vehicles involved the potential for accelerator pedals to become trapped near the floor by out-of-position or inappropriate floor mat installations." "

for toyota:
http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/11/25/toyota-announces-a-fix-for-sudden-acceleration-focus-on-stuck-mats/

quote: "NHTSA concluded last month – as it has in past Toyota SUA investigations – the blame lay with improperly attached floor mats that could hold down the accelerator pedal. In October, Toyota launched a floor mat recall campaign, urging Toyota and Lexus owners to immediately remove all floor mats from their vehicles, while the company promised to develop and deliver a more substantive remedy."

from just one of many ODI investigation reports on Toyota Unintended Acceleration:

"AFTER REVIEW AND ANALYSIS OF THE AVAILABLE INFORMATION, ODI HAS NOT IDENTIFIED A VEHICLE-BASED DEFECT THAT WOULD HAVE PRODUCED THE ALLEGED ENGINE SURGE IN THE PETITIONER'S VEHICLE, NOR WAS IT ABLE TO WITNESS SUCH AN EVENT WHEN ROAD TESTING THE PETITIONER'S VEHICLE. EVALUATION OF A SUSPECT THROTTLE ACTUATOR REMOVED FROM THE PETITIONER'S VEHICLE DID NOT REVEAL A COMPONENT PROBLEM"

"THE FAULT DETECTION AND REACTION STRATEGY DESCRIBED IN TOYOTA'S TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS INDICATES THAT A LOSS OF THROTTLE CONTROL DUE TO A COMPONENT OR SYSTEM FAILURE WOULD BE DETECTED WITHIN A ONE SECOND PERIOD AFTER WHICH ENGINE POWER WOULD BE LIMITED. THE PETITIONER'S MY 2006 VEHICLE BRAKE SYSTEM OVERCOMES FULL ENGINE POWER AT EASILY ACHIEVABLE BRAKE PEDAL FORCES. BASED ON THE ANALYSIS CONDUCTED,"

and finally: from NHTSA

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/document/NHTSA_Filing.pdf

“The vehicle was fully instrumented to monitor and acquire data relating to yaw rate, speed, acceleration, deceleration, brake pedal effort, brake line hydraulic pressure, brake pad temperature, engine vacuum, brake booster vacuum, throttle plate position, and accelerator pedal position. Multiple electrical signals were introduced into the electrical system to test the robustness of the electronics against single point failures due to electrical interference. The system proved to have multiple redundancies and showed no vulnerabilities to electrical signal activities. Magnetic fields were introduced in proximity to the throttle body and accelerator pedal potentiometers and did result in an increase in engine revolutions per minute (RPM) of up to approximately 1,000 RPM, similar to a cold-idle engine RPM level. Mechanical interferences at the throttle body caused the engine to shut down.”

Toyota and Lexus models for 2008 had a much greater incidence of sudden, unintended acceleration than other brands, according to Consumer Reports’ analysis of a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) safety complaints database. In our review of 2008 model-year data, Ford also stood out with a significant number of related complaints. Both automakers had a disproportionate number of occurrences for their market share, though the statistical likelihood of experiencing such events is low.

In analyzing all 5,916 reports on 2008 models, Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center and Statistics Department identified 166 cases in which the complaint described sustained unintended acceleration that the driver found difficult or impossible to control. Such incidents prompted a related safety advisory focused on floor-mat entrapment issued by both NHTSA and Toyota in September, 2009.

We used 2008 models to provide a snapshot across all automakers and identify possible issues. The scope was further narrowed to complaints submitted before Aug. 28, 2009, when a California family was killed in a Lexus sedan experiencing uncontrollable acceleration, to eliminate the impact media coverage had in drawing

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/lexus/

uh huh, and your point is? CR made that clai, prompting NHTSA to make an investigation, which they did, and they determined that it wasnt the gas pedal nor the ECM...

and im sorry, but 166 people isnt a lot when toyota sells 9+ million cars

The ECM itself can function fine, if the programming has a flaw, and still produce a problem.

If an accelerator cutoff on brake pressure were placed in the programming then you would at least be able to stop the car from accelerating even if the pedal were causing the problem.

Just sayin'.

BTW, I dont know why Lexus is being brought into this when none of the recalls affect lexus models. The only aceleration problem was with the CHP officer, I dont think there are any other reports on problems in Lexus cars

Just google "Lexus sudden acceleration" and you'll see why.

— theoptimisticpessimist:

> Just google "Lexus sudden acceleration" and you'll see why.

Just google "Earth is flat theory" and you'll see why.

http://www.google.com/search?q=earth+is+flat+theory

downtoearth

Okay google "lexus sudden acceleration consumer reports" you get http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/lexus/ the above article. The flat earthers are the people that don't believe there is a problem at Toyota and Lexus.

Optimist : That is too funny. For Lexus and Toyota owners, why does it take an issue like this before you realize that maybe we should have a " fail safe " brake override? For a company that advertises safety, sure dont measure up to what is advertised.

BMW has had a system in place since 1989. Using their Throttle by wire technology should the accelerator pedal stick or get jammed for some reason or other, if one applies the brake pedal and keeps pressing down the car recognizes it and therefore slows the car down overriding the accelerator pedal. Had Toyota or Lexus had similar technology, then the CHP officer wouldnt have crashed. This is just an unfortunate " black eye " on Toyota. Hopefully, they will resolve the issues soon.

Thing is it could be a combination of a slow return peddle and electronic throttle. I'll bet this ET situation will be addressed next.So whoes the supplier of Et's for Toyota?

imho, the difficulty in pinpointing the actual problem, is that the fatal incidents were "perfect storm" situations that required MULTIPLE causes converging:

1) misplaced floormats and/or sticky pedal
2) a HEAVY FOOTED driver STOMPING on the gas
3) an ignorant driver NOT knowing all he has to do is SHIFT to N.


while there HAVE been hundreds of complaints, mostly related to the sticky pedal, that there have been only ~20 incidents resulting in death or injury, points to 2) AND 3) also being NECESSARY factors.

Why are there no complaints with the pedal built by the Japanese based Denso company?

There are, that is why the European (Denso parts) recalls are starting.

Does anyone ready the LA Slimes anymore?

Since i have left Nissan and is sleepin with Toyota, I cannot comment on the matter...LMAO

It is not just CTS it is Denso as well! There is something else to this problem, toyota still has not identified the root cause.


This is from the Seattle Times:

Another Toyota spokesman, Mike Michels, said in an e-mail that the company had identified the pedal problem as "abnormal friction in the pedal pivot mechanism" and that the automaker hoped to announce a remedy soon.

Toyota has honored CTS three times since 2005 for the quality and efficiency of its work, citing the fact that the supplier "exceeded quality expectations" and achieved "100 percent on-time delivery and for shipping accelerator pedal modules with zero defects."

The automaker also uses pedals supplied by Denso, a Japanese company with North American headquarters in suburban Detroit, but has said those do not appear to be defective.

However, the review of federal safety records shows several instances of complaints of stuck pedals on vehicles built in Japan, which Toyota has said are not subject to the recall. For example, one complaint, filed two years ago, told of a 2007 Japanese-built Camry in Maryland with a pedal that "stuck to the floor."




http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2010939532.html

Irrespective of where the problem lies, pedal gate has surely demonstrated to us that toyota manufactures poorly engineered and unsafe cars!

Two issues:

1) Toyota has known about this problem since 2008. How is it possible that they have not fixed this simple issue of the pedal (yes, I'm an engineer and this IS NOT A COMPLEX ISSUE!). Is it maybe they are trying to brush it under the rug and forget about it???

2) If so few customers have actually pointed to sticky pedals (one has to wonder how many unaware customers would actually know to identify the root cause correctly?) than what OTHER PROBLEMS do Toyotas have to explain the over 2000 complaints and unintended acceleration accidents???????

One does not become a reliable company by LYING and HIDING the truth Mr. Toyoda.

" Hard to see the Darkside, hmmmm " quote from yoda