Are Automotive Designers Catering To The New Giant, China?

Wow! What will the automotive landscape look like 10 years from now? "Just take a look at the new Chevrolet Swan Dancing in the Meadow!"

I wish China would raise all of their emission and safety standards to ours and Europe's level, BUT that doesn't mean I want them to tighten up on certain criterion or loosen up on others. I just want the automakers to move on with making great and safe cars that they can sell in America. If there aren't enough customers here in America, then no problem! China can come to the rescue and keep the cars alive with their high sales.

i dare you to confront any HARD WORKING chinese person and call him a hobo to his face! he likely works 2 or 3 times harder than YOU do!

Hmmh, Turbo's attitude is kind of like Europe's was towards the US quite a long time ago, before its rise.

He just can't handle the fact that the balance of power is shifting back to where it once was.

Turbo, the one constant in this universe is change, deal with it.

"China was never a dominant world power."

It was the most powerful country in the world up until the industrial revolution.

Poor turbo...the more he copy and pastes, the more we don't bother to read.

One thing I will say, he certainly likes to "selectively" copy and paste.

Turbo, you are comic relief!

turbo--

history did not start in 1500. or even 1492 for that matter.

do a little research on chinese "treasure ships." they made columbus' ships look like rowboats. for specific leads, read "When China Ruled the Seas," "1421," and "1434", the latter two by Gavin Menzies. you can even just check out the websites for those, as well as read excerpts on Amazon.

the Indian Ocean was a chinese lake until the mid-1400s. both columbus and magellan had maps DERIVED FROM CHINESE originals, via turkey and italy.

china WAS the greatest empire until they decided in the 1430's that there was little the rest of the world had that they wanted. after that, they settled for western traders to come to them instead. check out materials on the Silk Road. westerners lusted for chinese silk and other goods from roman times all the way up to when the portugese reached their coasts by sea.

i know huu detests modern china, but the HISTORIC GRANDEUR of his forebears cannot be denied.

WHILE china withdrew from the other (barely developed western) countries, they got leapfrogged in science and technology.

the Brits actually got a leg up on industrialization after copying CHINESE LOOMS first copied by the italians, who themselves managed to duplicate the chinese silk industry. their local development of steam power also was a factor of course.

the brits then REPAID china by foisting addictive opium on them, starting the Opium Wars and grabbing Hong Kong. all the other industrial vultures stole a piece of china too, including 'little brother' Japan.

even as their army was decimated by invaders, chinese held the attitude "It is only due to an accident of history, that the barbarians have discovered weapons superior to ours. With our superior culture, once we learn those techonological tricks, we will once again assert our superiority."
the japanese had the exact same attitude, and rapidly modernized their army and navy as well as their industries. and they asserted their superiority by beating the Russians in 1904. and even the brits in malaysia in 1942, with an army 1/10 the size western "military science" dictated would have been required.

both nations today realize that INTELLIGENT modern wars are better waged industrially and economically, rather than militarily. meanwhile, OUR militaristic mentality continues to waste trillions of dollars on arms that are doing us little good.

Keep it coming Turbo! Let's see how far you can go!!!!! Please post something more!! You can do it!

"I watched a TV show a year or two ago where they went to China and asked historians there about claims that some idiotic white guy made in a book that China had navigated the open oceans and the Chinese historians basically said that the claims were nonsense and that the Chinese navigators had basically just hugged the coast of Africa on their journeys."

LOL!

so, you get ALL of your education from TV and wiki? how about reading a book or two.

that "idiotic white guy" retired after a long career as cmdr. of subs in the British Navy. what he's forgotten about currents, tides, wind patterns, etc. etc. is more than YOU EVER learned with your little rubber duckie in your bathtub.
the run of the mill chinese "historians" they interviewed also likely had as much knowledge as you. they of course never saw SURPRESSED records, which more thorough historians HAVE uncovered.

if they had interviewed a TRUE Scholar (of which china has 2000+ years of history nurturing), they would have gotten honest, complete, and CORRECT answers.

Menzies had found physical, cultural, and GENETIC evidence of chinese landings in both the americas no later than the 1430s.

even archival chinese records reveal they had contact with the western NA continent as early as 400 AD, with add'l contacts thru the 600s and later.

and funny that you WASTED so much time to research and c & p "Oyatoi gaikokujin." because it is all TOTALLY IRRELEVENT!

the japanese have an axiom: "The student eventually surpasses the Master."

and they have PROVEN IT, time and again.

as i said, in Military Science by whupping the pants off the Ruskies (1904-05) and the Brits (1941-42). and even our own vaunted U.S. Navy, in most of the times when we did not have air superiority and radar advantages.
they ultimately lost ww2 ONLY because their industrial base was a mere 1/10 or less of ours.

post war, they surpassed the FORMER "Masters" in optical goods (cameras, microscopes, binocs and more), shipbuilding, motorcycles, consumer electronics, cars... the list goes on.

and as japan starts to lose steam, the koreans, chinese, and indians will start to build up even LARGER heads of steams. even western historians and economists say now that the 21st Century WILL be the CHINESE century. just as the 20th was the american century, and the 19th the british.

empires come and go. the chinese will be the first that Went, but has Come Back AGAIN!

"Is that why some Japanese cameras (Canon) advertise that they use Zeiss lenses? Germany doesn't export textiles or low tech goods..."

Canon is just one brand. and unlike Nikon and Minolta, they do not make THEIR OWN lenses.

since you mention textiles, and LACK the historical knowledge as to how england's COPYING chinese looms helped build her empire, consider these FACTS:

1. the manufacture of CHEAP COTTON cloth was one of the fundamental factors in the Industrial Revolution.
2. people across the planet who advanced beyond stone age cultures, have always had a need for clothing. mass produced cotton was cheaper than any other clothing material.
3. it was largely Brit needs for raw cotton, that made King Cotton a significant basis for the economy of the U.S. south (along with highly addictive tobacco).
4. flooding India with cheap cotton was a significant factor in Brit imperialism. boycotting imported cotton was a key movement in Ghandi's long struggle to overthrow the Brits.
5. the mechanical function of weaving looms was influential in the History of Modern Computers.
6. the invention of advanced Automatic looms garnered one Mr. Toyoda an international patent, and a company that today is the world's No. 1 automaker.

"...they do not make THEIR OWN lenses."

clarification: make their own lenses from SCRATCH, starting with the manufacture of high quality optical glass with rare earth elements.

and continuing along this line-- who makes the MOST quality cameras? accessory lenses? optical goods combined with ELECTRONICS, for everything from medical equiptment to professional and advanced consumer video cameras?

and since you want to bring in the race element: who has the MOST DISCRIMMINATING EYES, able to distinguish amongst the MOST shades of white? none other than people in the japanese pearl industry.

sorta related: who has the LONGEST continuous history of fine art?

while japanese and chinese were painting highly detailed scrolls, and writing poetry in imperial courts, the highest expression of culture among the Celts was smearing blue clay on one ass cheek, and red on the other! LOL!

"And I always find it amusing how people like to take a miniscule factor and magnify it way beyond its importance. Do you honestly think that Britain's industrial revolution with all its widespread advancements hinged on them knowing something about Chinese looms? Btw, I did a quick search of Wikipedia under "loom" and "weaving" and there was no mention of China whatsoever."


again, if you're SO DEPENDENT on widipedia instead of REAL original source material from research heavy BOOKS, it just reflects the SHALLOWNESS of your 'research skills.'

if you just go to the web site for 1434 (i KMNOW it'd be too much to expect you to actually check out and read the book), you'd find that not only looms, but canal and lock systems, dams and waterwheels, and a whole bunch of other technologies that marked the transition from medieval to industrial age technology were ALSO transferred from the chinese to central and western europe.

for that matter, that FONT of all your "deep knowledge" wikipedia, is derived from the hawaiian/polynesian term "wiki-wiki." and the whole polynesian race, originated from daring navigator/adventurer/colonists who ORIGINATED off the coast of CHINA.

so it was not MERELY looms, but whole hydro-power systems, and other mechanical devices, which got to the west FROM china!

so siemens can make a whole bunch of electrical geegaws.

so HOW CUM the german auto industry CAN NOT MAKE reliable electrical power systems? how cum even suzuki (to say nothing of toyota) makes cars with less troublesome electrics than even AUDI/vw, bmw, and MB?

who seem not able to even make reliable WIRING, say nothing of components! LOL!

LOL!

you simply can NOT counter my arguments, so you TRY to sidestep and evade them completely!

i've been saying all along that china was THE most advanced country all the way up to ~1700 A.D. or so.

just WHAT does it being classified an "underdeveloped country" TODAY have to do with this argument?

and i was talking about ELECTRICAL components and wiring, not rusty frames or overall dependability. (which JDP, with it's pitiful 90 day and 3 yr limited attention span, is no match for the CR ratings which go out to 8 years. and which show that (by projection) even TEN to TWELVE year olf toyotas are more reliable than any worn out 5-yr old euro heap.)

china was in a process of imperial DECLINE before germany WAS EVEN a country!

now that they are on the upswing, they will soon SLINGSHOT PAST all the euro snobs. and likely japan and the u.s. too.

(meanwhile, japan remains well ahead across a whole range of CULTURAL, SOCIAL, and industrial areas.)

"i've been saying all along that china was THE most advanced country all the way up to ~1700 A.D. or so."


Sure they were. <--- Sarcasm.


From MSN Encarta:

"Scientific Revolution, the period roughly between 1500 and 1700 during which the foundations of modern science were laid down in Western Europe. Before this period, nothing like science in the modern sense existed."


congratulations! you've finally graduated from having all your brains simply restricted to wikipedia!

yet i am still more widely read, and more comprehensively informed than you will ever be.

so the scientific revolution IN WESTERN EUROPE started IN EUROPE from 1500 to 1700? well, what an amazing coincidence! it so happens that there was a visit to the pope in venice by a CHINESE AMBASSADOR in 1434.

among the gifts he brought FROM CHINA, was a calendar so they could CORRECTLY figure the proper dates for easter. prior to this, they were WRONG more often than right. the chinese calendar became the basis for the modern calendar used universally today.
most of modern astronomical calculations of cometary orbits, draw on CHINESE astronomical records, the OLDEST for which there are accurate dates.

other gifts included compact book excerpts from a massive Ming encyclopedia of all knowledge in the chinese empire, circa 1400. individual books covered farming and irrigation, with illustrations for WATER PUMPS; canal and lock systems; pond and water wheel power systems; animal husbandry; etc. etc.

of course even the advanced (for europe) venetians could not read chinese, but they did understand the universal language of ILLUSTRATIONS. venetians copied many of the mechanical devices illustrated. many of LEONARDO DA VINCI'S drawings are based on earlier italian copies of those chinese ORIGINALS.

oh yeah, PRINTING was also invented by the chinese, and copied by guttenberg and some other guy forgotten by history. that's why the chinese were so GENEROUS with those little booklets. and there were more than the few i mentioned.

in total, all this NEW to europe info, introduced by the CHINESE in 1434, provided the impetus for both the Renaissance AND the Scientific Revolution in europe. like you said, FROM 1500 onward!

"Why doesn't Bertrand Russell mention China here? Because it is well known that western science is built upon the foundation laid down by the Greeks."

yet western europeans DID NOTHING with the primitive greek "science" until spurred on by Arabs, and later Chinese. the former provided a number SYSTEM which made calculations possible, and hence modern mathematics. imagine trying to multiply or divide MMMDCXXXII by CMDDDXXVIII? lol! THAT was the state of Western mathematics before the arabs!

bertram russull made no reference to the arabs OR chinese advanced knowledge systems because he lived in the BACKWATER BRITISH ISLES. by the time knowledge passed from italy thru germany and france and across the channel, he had NO IDEA of their eastern origins! even tho' he lived some 400 years AFTER the first transfers of knowledge.

heck, he even missed the invention of moveable type as ANOTHER advance after the invention of writing.

you need to find MORE INFORMED sources, turbo!

At the risk of fanning the flame brought forth by huu, I agree with what he says above. China's growth rate is from a very small base. As an Asian, I can say it's true about how Asians (including Japanese) love Westernised things and tend to go with flashy name brands without understanding their true strengths/values. I don't see China "leading" the way any time soon and deep down, I think Chinese government knows this. They, more than anyone else, realise they have inherent weaknesses such as a very different language (prevents them from spreading their thinking/knowledge and influencing other cultures), too many different ethnic groups that are not friendly to the dominant Han's culture and influence, obsession with "saving face" and not willing to be self-critical or letting others criticise them, etc. I'm not saying China will not be influential, I just don't think they will lead others to follow them. Kinda like a jerk of a customer but the customer frequents your establishment so you put up with him.

I am not an expert on sociology or history but I am an Asian who grew up in US working with Caucasians and Asian-Americans, now live in Asia, work with alot of Westerners but our customers are practically all Asians, travel on regular basis to Australia, so I do think I have a broad enough basis behind my thoughts/observations.

On the whole, I agree that Koreans are "obsessed" with outdoing the Japanese, while using the Japanese playbook, and denying they're copying the Japanese. The biggest example is their economic model (export driven economy through chaebols/keiretsus discreetly supported by their own gov't through tax and personnel transfer mechanisms). It's an historically driven cultural phenomenon this underdog mentality. Even their sense of fashion is purely name brand with Western looks whereas the Japanese have their own fashion style (not that it's any better but atleast it's unique).

As for Japan, I tend to think Japan is similar to Great Britain. Their physical, economical and historical ties are with their mainland counterpart (China and Asia for Japan and Europe for Great Britain) but they really want to distance themselves from their mainland counterparts and associate themselves with the world power of the day (US for Great Britain and US and Germany for Japan). Worse, they tend to do so while looking down on their mainland counterpart so ultimately, Japan and Great Britain do pay a price at certain challenging periods where their nearby neighbours are the one that can help them most.

As for China, take what I say with a grain of salt given my Vietnam's ethnicity and our historical animosity with one another. But as I already mentioned earlier, China has a lot of inherent weaknesses/challenges that are very hard to overcome. One big thing being their selfishness. Their immigrant communities (in Malaysia, Vietnam, South America, Australia, US, Canada, Europe) will not make personal sacrifice to their adopted country and would rather move their wealth and family out to avoid going off to fight on behalf of their adopted country. Their creation of numerous dams and total disregard for effect on Mekong river on their neighboring countries. Their merchant mentality leads to an opportunistic practices, i.e. move into the latest and most profitable industry instead of sticking to their original trade, taking human and environmental shortcuts, etc. I would still stand by my comment above, China will influence the products we make simply because they're too big a buyer/supplier but I'm not sure China will lead us in how the products should be made.

Having said all that, the US is not perfect either and our historical/current actions in defending our "way of life" (or is it "our corporations") will have repercussions on our own American citizens and how we are treated abroad.

And that's enough social commentary on my part and I do understand if you don't agree with what I say.

There is a clear danger of giving away free technology to the chinese because you give away your company's competitive edge. However, in the long term, I think China can only contribute to the improvement of technology through added competition. It may take them long to match the quality, styling and performance of the germans, americans, koreans and japanese but if the koreans area any indication it may not take them too long.

As far as cheap labor, as with any developing nation, labor will only get more expensive as you develop. So at some point I expect that labor will be as competitive as any other market and China will have less of an advantage in cost to build.