BMW 750Li: Its fifteen minutes are over?

I have to agree with what the writer said for the most part. I have always thought the A8 was a better car then the 7-Series or the S-Class. But....I am that type of person that just wants a refined, luxurious, enjoyable car. I know there are many on this site that are die-hard MB fans and BMW loyalists. There are talking points both ways, but the writer did nice job on summing each car up at the end.

Though the 7-Series does appeal to me with some of the interior styling and the over all package, it's just too jumbled with not user friendly interfaces. And I won’t get started on the MB interior. Something ‘more’ original would have been nice.

You want to show off and blow past me in your S or 7, be my guest. I'll be comfortably driving along listening to my music while the rest of you are fumbling with your seats and confusing iDrive.

You mean the rebadged, overpriced TOYOTA. No matter how hard they try, it will always be a TOYOTA.

Are you getting the conventional one or the one with the Hybrid aka "Environmental Enemy #1"?

FYI, until recently every US Lexus had a Toyota name in Japan.
No matter what Toyota does, Lexus will always be a Toyota.
What amazes me is how many of you Toyota/Lexus fans get offended when somebody calls Lexus a Toyota?

Everybody knows it's a Toyota. If you are a fan of their product it shouldn't bother you. If it does, you seriously need to start looking at other makes.

If you really believe what you preach why did Toyota change the name to Lexus? Why not just call it a Celsior? Face it people don't want to have their luxury car associated with a Toyota.

The Japanese never really cared what Toyota calls the car. They are smart enough to know it's a Toyota.

Toyota changed it recently because there were a lot of critics outside Japan.

You logic makes no sense. You can't call a Mercedes a glorified Smart, because Mercedes created Smart (partnership). The Smart did not create Mercedes.

Keep coming up with excuses. Lexus will always be a TOYOTA. I would be ashamed of paying $100K for soulless car that was created by the same company that brings us the ECHO.

If you had any Commonsense you would know why they buy them for cabs. Because there is nothing out there on the road that can outlast an MB diesel. Just go and ask the worldwide taxi drivers.
Who would know better than people that drive cars for living?

Just because they buy them with hubcaps and cloth doesn't mean they are cheap? Are you aware how much tax people pay outside the US?

Maybe you should read David's post again. I've noticed that you either don't read or don't understand what you are reading.

The LS was the Toyota Celsior, which just changed 5-6 months ago in Japan. Now it's called the TOYOTA LEXUS LS430!!!

I'm sorry, but I'm not a psychic. I'm not sure what Toyota would have called it if they weren’t getting criticized.
There is a good saying that I can't think of now, so you will have to pardon my French

A turd is a turd, no matter what you call it.

Since the names never change I guess it's safe to say that the new LS is a rebadged Celsior.

Just because they decided to rename the Celsior in Japan to Lexus it doesn't mean it's not a Celsior.
I bet if you ask a Japanese person about the LS they would still call it Celsior.
Look at it this way, if Mercedes for some reason decided to rename the S class for a particular market it would still be an S class. Wouldn't it?


I got a question for you JT and other Toyota/Lexus fans. Where does your Toyota passion come from? Is it their rich history? Is it the rich motor sport history? Is it the pioneering spirit of Toyota? Is it the soul of Toyota? Is it the prestige of Toyota? Or is it just because your daily driver is a Corolla or Camry?

No matter what they do to their product it will always lack a soul. It will never have a rich history. It will never have the prestige of a Gullwing, a Maybach, an SLR, an S class.

Toyota is basically an appliance that gets you from point A to point B.
In 10 years you will throw it away and they will make a new one.

How many Toyotas/Lexus' does Jay Leno have in his garage? How about the Sultan of Brunei? How about any car collector in the world?

Yes, we have established that the current crop of Lexus models are not rebadged Toyota's. But in a very loose sense.

I say this because all new Lexus models still feel like a Toyota. They are still dull to drive, dull to sit in, dull to look at, and the attention to detail is no better than in a Camry.

With Mercedes-Benz and Audi, years after you purchase them you are still discovering neat design touches that show a depth of engineering and thought. In a Lexus you don't get any of that.

Everything good about Lexus is on the surface. Ooohh, the woodgrain. Ooohh, the leather seats. But when you get down to the nitty gritty, you'll come to realise the handling is stodgy, it doesn't really look that nice, the electric window switches feel cheap, the clock was stolen off a Corolla. They forgot to design parts of the car.

You may not care about any of this. You may be happy with your woodgrain, your leather, your 3 tonnes of sound deadening.

And that's fine. But it just shows a car is just a car to you, and why pay extra for a German car that, on paper at least, does the same thing as my Lexus?

I guess you'll never know.

I have no idea why every time BMW is mentioned some knucklehead has to say that Lexus/Toyota is so much better. Tell you what, Timex watches are so much better than Omega too. Really!

The reason is probably that Lexus is the poser brand for Toyota. It is a form of grand-standing, of economic imperialism if you wish. "Oh, oh! We can make those too, but we can make them so much better than you and oversell you into oblivion! The idiot customers we manipulate don't know the difference, and they are many more than your aristocratic snobs."

And don't start me with Toyota trucks and how much better they are.

http://www.batfa.com/new_car_toyota_celsior.htm

here's another one (a bit more authentic):
http://toyota.jp/celsior/index.html

Hey, this is labeled as a 2006 model. It is as new as anyone can get. It is pointless to argue about the similarities between future Toyota and Lexus models. Actually, come to think of it, it is pointless to argue about Toyota/Lexus at all :)

I don't remember when was the last time I laughed so hard. Where is Lexusadmirier?

Anybody want to guess what the 07 Celsior will/would have looked like? LOL

JT,
At least your C class has a better chance of one day finding a home in some collector's garage than any Lexus/Toyota.

Every European badge has a rich history behind it. Something you can be proud of when driving.

What exactly do you get with the L on your hood?
What kind of history does the L have?

All the L can tell you is that it used to be a T.

This coming from a guy that 5 minutes ago was convinced that there is no such thing as 2006 Celsior.

LOL

It's amazing how ignorant/blind Lexus fans are.

The LS/Celsior whatever they decide to call it will always be a Toyota.

Why did Toyota wait 16 years to call it a Lexus?

Because Japanese people are smart. They don't need to be fooled into buying a car. They know it's a Toyota and don't mind buying it.

What puzzles me is why so many of you are ashamed of admitting your car is a Toyota?

If you are in love with the blandness/reliability of Toyota why be ashamed of it?

What exactly are you trying to prove? You think I don't know that they renamed the Celsior for 2007.

But I also know it's still a Toyota. It will be made in the exact same place as the 06 Celsior. Same designers, engineers, assembly plant nothing will be changed.

My question to you is why are you so ashamed and trying to prove to me a Lexus is not a Toyota/Celsior?

I love this website....

Where else can you post a question about three different cars and have over 85% of the posts about a totally differnt subject.

I really was looking forward to another good BMW/MB discussion, but I guess everyone was warded off by the Lexus/Toyotal run.

I think Audi is the best choice among the four.
The interior is the best in the world, the MMI is extremly user friendly and still looks good, it is by far the best looking of the four, and with the long wheelbase version also offers the most rear legroom. Many tests showed it is also the best in handling because of its Quattro 4WD system and automatic air suspension. Engine choices include wonderfull 4.2 turbo diesel, the W12, and the powerfull V10 in the S8.

And I still think Lexus is not in the famous German threesome yet.

Ohhh please....the Lexus fan club needs to get a clue. I had these discussions 5 years ago when there was no doubt that an LS was a Celsior and for every Lexus model in the US there was a Toyota in Japan.

Your excuses back then were that they share nothing in common...blah blah blah.
It's the same crap no matter what they call it.

Just because Toyota rebadged it for 07 as part of their global strategy doesn't mean it's not the same car. The new LS would have been the new Celsior no matter how you look at. The Celsior name will die because it's the LS. Keep denying it as much as you want. It just shows how ashamed Lexus owners are of the Toyota brand.

FYI JT, the only difference in Europe with MB is that you get more choices. Example: smaller engines, cloth vs leather, manual accessories vs power accessories, etc.

It's because of the high cost of owning an MB in other countries. I have a friend in Hong Kong that paid $130k for his E class. With that amount of money he can be driving a fully loaded S600 in the US.

As far as MB not having cheap cars here, have you seen the C class hatchback?
MB will eventually bring the A class and Smart to the US.

Keep the excuses coming!!!

JT,

Your logic is so flawed it's not even funny. A Benz is a Benz no matter where you go in the world. Just because people have an option to buy a Smart doesn't mean they don't know the difference between and S600 and a Smart.

Why would people in Australia, Honk Kong, China, Japan, etc. pay double the amount of money that we pay in the US to drive these cars.

According to your logic a person from Japan that buys a Benz should check himself into a mental institution. Why buy a Benz with so much tax if he can buy a Celsior without tax?
You ever heard of the Japanese Magazine "Only Mercedes"? You should look it up.

You've never been to Europe, so stop spreading BS.
Toyota in Japan is like MB in Europe...please stop making me laugh. So, what does that make MB in Japan? Car from the Gods.

FYI, Toyota in Japan is like VW in Europe.

You still don't know what you are talking about. In the US MB sells a C class in the high 20Ks and the SLR @ $452K in the same showroom.
A much bigger difference than the example that you mentioned.

People know the difference.

The same way people know that a Lexus is a Toyota. I guess you’re the only one having a hard time comprehending that FACT.

GET A LIFE!!!! Cars like anything else in life appeal to diferent people for different reasons. BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, Audi are all fine cars. Just pick the one you like drive it and be happy.

I love the part where you say the "NEWER LEXI are built by TOYOTA as Lexus"

I rest my case.

Enjoy your clone and call it whatever you wish.

Great cars don't have name issues. The three pointed star is recognized anywhere in the world and needs no explanation.

Show the L to people in Africa and let's see if they know what it stands for.

Toyota is on top of their game and their technology is supreme?
Sure it is buddy. Have you been watching F1 lately? They've been throwing $450 million a year for the past 6 years trying to make their mark. By far the biggest budget. They hired the best brains in the business, which by the way do not come from Japan.

Guess what? Even with all the brains and money they are running in the midfield. Being beat by teams with budgets half their size. They are losers and will always be losers.

Do you know why they can't be successful? Because Formula one is fast paced. You don't have time to reverse engineer and copy your competition. Copying has been something Toyota has always done and they are very good at it in the normal world.
In F1 they got caught and charged with industrial espionage copying Ferrari.

PERSONALLY, I WOULD BE ASHEMED OF BEING ASSOCIATED WITH A COMPANY THAT STEALS.
THIS IS A FACT. Read it for yourself Google Toyota, Ferrari, and industrial espionage

The same way they steal in F1 is how they steal technology from the Germans for production cars.

WHAT DID THEY EVER INVENT? HOW MANY PATENTS DOES TOYOTA HOLD?

We would still be getting around on horses if it weren’t for the Germans.

Nobody cares about F1?

Shows how ignorant you are. Did you know F1 is the biggest sporting event in the world?

Just because F1 is not as popular in the US as it is in the rest of the world doesn't mean nobody cares about it.
Last time I checked the US is not the WORLD and that goes for your Lexus sales as well.

F1 is the world's biggest showcase for manufacturers to show what they can do. Where else do you see one manufacturer spending up to $450 million to race two cars?
It is the pinnacle of motor sport and automotive engineering. An F1 car is more complicated than any production car will ever be.

Well the point is that they invented it. Not only did they give us the car, but the Germans also gave us the gas motor, the diesel and every other significant automotive invention. Hell they are responsible for putting man on the moon. Look it up before you reply to that one.

plb,
Name one thing the Germans stole from the Japanese manufacturers.

It's funny that I'm discussing this with people that are most likely convinced that Edison was the greatest inventor that ever lived...lol... a guy that did not even believe in AC current. If this guy had his way we would be living in a primitive world today.

F1 has nothing to do with Toyota/Lexus?

So, why are they throwing away $450 million each year?

I wonder how important F1 would be to you and other Toyota fans if they could win the world championship.

They stole technology from Solomon Tech. made a Hybrid and all of a sudden Toyota is the most advanced automaker.

I would love to see you brag if they could win anything in F1.

TOYOTA
Biggest budget + biggest brains +6 years + very good drivers = 0 WINS

Although you are correct about some recent Lexus models (like the new IS) no longer being Toyotas in Japan, several US Lexus models still are. ES is still a rebadged Windom, RX still a rebadged Harrier, GX a rebadged Sequoia, LX a rebadged LandCruiser. And those models constitute more than 60% of all Lexus sales in the US.

Thanks for the info, but I'm not the one in denial that Lexus will always be a Toyota.

These guys here think that changing a badge from T to L gives it some superpower...LOL

Same designers, same engineers, same assembly workers, same plant, different badge...whatever floats your boat.

Never have i read more bs about Lexus in my life that in your posts. Incase you didnt realise, the US is not the only country in the world!!! There is a very good reason that Lexus is only successful in the USA and nowhere else - it is engineered purely for American tastes. Here in Australia Lexus has extremely low sales despite the factthey have been here for over 12 years and
are significantly cheaper than BMW and Mercedes. The reason for this is because people see past the inclusion of gimmicky technology and the mentality of "shove as many features as we can into the car to win the value for money argument against the Germans".

Even though here Mercedes sells both lower end cars such as the A-Class right through to the S and CL Classes they still retain their prestige brand image (a brand image which still runs rings around Lexus)so stop using the Mercedes is only viewed as better than lexus because they dont sell their cheap cars in the US argument - the formula of selling both types of cars can work.

No matter how much you people deny it,a LEXUS is manufactured by the Toyota Motor Corporation as pointed out by Ben and many others who actually read posts and talk sense.Up until last year all Lexus vehicles were rebadged Toyota's - its not bs its a fact. I can still go buy an LX470 and it is the same vehicle underneath as a Toyota Landcruiser. It just reinforces what most Australians and others around the world believe - a Lexus is a rebadged Toyota with Leather, more tech and imitiation woodgrain - in short a posers car.

MB and Merc not only have heritage, they also have design philosophies (which they dont
have to give stupid names to like 'l-finesse'" )
that produce beautiful and desirable cars like the SL, SLR, S-Class, CL and E Class. Basically the only reasons JT argues lexus is better is based on price, value for money and that it rates highly in US quality ratings. The fact
that Australians still prefer to pay higher prices for MB(e.g S550 = AUD $253,900 - USD Approx 191,000) than Lexus (LS430 - $150,000 AUD) is a testament to consumers views of Lexus - basically that they are reversed engineered, boring whitegoods on wheels vehicles that reek of japanese-american ideas on what luxury cars should be.

If you wanna buy a Lexus and believe that it is a unique and prestigiuous luxury brand then go ahead. You and all the other ignorant Americans out there are just living in denial that while
truly global brands like MB and BMW make cars that people will still be fantasising over in 20 years.

Don't worry the A class is on its way.

If people were only concerned about "problem free" as you pointed out, we would all be driving Hyundai cars with 10 year warranties.

If you want a car that drives like crap, steals technology, and has the reliability of a Toyota pickup buy a Lexus.

Mike hit the nail right on the head.

This marketing only works in the US. Name another country where Lexus outsells MB.

MB outsells Lexus in Japan. Does that tell you something?

toyota I mean lexus out sells MB because most of there sales are the camary I mean the es the ford taurus of luxury cars and by the way acura has nothing in common with honda, mercury nothing with ford, audi with vw and infiniti with nissan. Lexus is a very unique company with noooooothing in common with toyota yeah right HAAAAAAAHAAAA

We are all now big Lexus fans thanks to you!

We now appreciate their reliability, their impeccible fit and finish, their...uhh....and what else? Price, was it? No no, sales figures! That's it.

So, as a newly converted Lexus fan (thanks again JT!) I will recap why I love Lexus:

-Reliability
-Interior fit and finish
-Sales figures

That sure is an unbeatable blend of attributes Lexus has there.

Oh, by the way,

100th post!!!

I have a friend who believes his grey 15-year old Camry Waggon is all he needs in life...

And I have another friend who within, hmm, 2 years graduated from a busted 5-year old Hyundai Elantra, through a Saturn L something, a 323i bare bones sedan to a 325Ci sports package... He's chasing other things in life now in a big city, but the last car he was looking at was a Carrera S.

Both are great friends, but come on, life is too short to drive a crappy soulless car.