AUTO SPIES WORLD EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: New Lexus tears up the desert!

I'm sure Toyota will be cleared...as soon as they unload a few truckloads of cash at Solomon Tech.

You guys still don't get it. Toyota has and will always copy and reverse engineer other people’s ideas.

It's very smart and profitable, as they have shown. There is nothing better than learning from other people's mistakes, but personally I would be ashamed to be associated with this kind of business.

I would rather give my hard earned money to manufacturers that pioneer a not to manufacturers that sit in the back seat and wait for others to do all the work.

"would disagree with your statements that Toyota spent anymoney on Hybrid technology to invent it. But rather stole it and modified it further"

but from whom Toyota stole, Why didn't they came with it first.Name them.

All this ignorancy is just because Toyota invented a winning formula,and you all haters can't see them winning.

ANd 001 buster u r not alone,even some your friends say hybrids are a waste of money and complelty useless,they don't make any diffference in the performance or mileage....etc

My answer is if hybrids aren't good or effective then why all companies are following actually copying this toyota's technology.
Whole GM,MB,BMW,AUDI,Porsche,Renault,Volovo...etc
all are trying to adopt this toyota's technology.

well,i think this GS450h is a great car,an ultra all-rounder.5 star in every aspect.don't want to go in detail,as already i said it many times.
but the biggest thing is that there is still no direct competitor to these beast.

JUGNU

"would disagree with your statements that Toyota spent anymoney on Hybrid technology to invent it. But rather stole it and modified it further"

but from whom Toyota stole, Why didn't they came with it first.Name them.

All this ignorancy is just because Toyota invented a winning formula,and you all haters can't see them winning.

ANd 001 buster u r not alone,even some your friends say hybrids are a waste of money and complelty useless,they don't make any diffference in the performance or mileage....etc

My answer is if hybrids aren't good or effective then why all companies are following actually copying this toyota's technology.
Whole GM,MB,BMW,AUDI,Porsche,Renault,Volovo...etc
all are trying to adopt this toyota's technology.

well,i think this GS450h is a great car,an ultra all-rounder.5 star in every aspect.don't want to go in detail,as already i said it many times.
but the biggest thing is that there is still no direct competitor to these beast.

JUGNU

Stop making me laugh with the fuel economy. I just posted on the GS450H review. Go read it and come back.

Maybe you should Google Hybrid Scam and read the study that was released by CNW in Oregon.

Or maybe you should read what real world consumers have to say about fuel economy (40-50% off from EPA rating).
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/598bgjbv.asp

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/20/opinion/main1224807.shtml

FYI, MB's 500 engine was designed 10 years ago.

Either way you are asking for a comparison between apples and oranges.

Keep defending this sucker technology.

The car is expensive and failed me on the comparison test we did with him.
I dont know why we have even included it but anyway, the clear winner was the audi A6, followed by BMW 5, mercedes E, and last lexus.

It is nothing special, just a German competitor wannabe in Europe....I see its different in the US

I never said hybrid technology would suck forever.
I said that this technology should still be in testing.

Don't worry time will tell the truth. If you want to be a sucker go ahead and purchase one.

Wow, how can somebody be a sucker for trying a new technology? Does it matter who had the concept first or the idea? It matters who has it for sale today, there are thousands of potential buyers who are willing to pay TODAY. If this technology is a big scam, even better, we will sue Toyota and get rich. And get real,go to Japan and see for yourself how much more advanced they are in consumer technology. I feel like a caveman everytime I visit tokyo.

You guys are missing the point. Maybe you should look at this issue without your Toyota shades.

Do listen to me go read the reports that are being released.

CNW did a 2 year study on current hybrids. Their high cost and long term environmental impact.

Consumers have reported 40-50% difference in MPG compared to what the EPA issued.

Read what I wrote again. This stuff should be in testing. If Toyota claims 93 mpg in the one that they are testing more power to them.
Keep pushing the technology before it goes into mass production.

Manufacturers need to figure a more efficient way to make them. They need to figure an efficient way to recycle the batteries. There are still too many questions.

The FACT is that the current Hybrids are a big scam.

The solution is to keep improving the technology and make it more efficient. Did you try to calculate how much money you can save at the pump? It would take you 10 years to save $4000 with the EPA figures. If we use MPG figures from real world consumers you wouldn't even be able to save that much.

My questions to you:

With improving technology who in their right mind would keep a car for 10 years?

Do you deny the fact that it takes a lot more energy (pollution) to make a hybrid today than it does a conventional car?

Do you deny the fact that we still don't know how long the batteries will last?

Do you deny the fact that we still don’t know what to do with the batteries? How to dispose efficiently?

My 10 year statement was used to show you how little a person would save on gas. Nobody these days keeps a car for 10 years. Even 5 years is pushing it. You save $400 per year or $1.11 per day to drive technology that is still not proven.

Keep in mind these savings are with factory MPG claims. Real world driving showed 40-50% less MPG.

If you calculate with real world driving I'm afraid there is no fuel savings.

If you want to spend your money on unproven technology and commute in a city for 10 years with the same car be my guest.

Just ask Toyota if we can send the bad batteries back to Japan.

Do you have any idea how fast one of these 100k mi cars will depreciate?

Go ahead sucker buy 5 of them because that is how many you will need to cover the same mileage that I will cover with a Bluetec diesel and I can actually commute wherever I want and get better MPG.

Hmmm...build one Bluetec that can last forever and easily cover 500k mi @ 40 mpg or build 5 toxic Hybrids?

There certainly are people that keep their car for 10+ years. If you are one of those a hybrid should be your last option.

The $4k (10 years) that you save in fuel will be nothing compared to the depreciation hit of these cars in 10 years.

JT,
Don't even try to compare the depreciation of a hybrid that has yet to reach 100k mi with a 10 year old MB or BMW.

How many 400h cars will Toyota sell?

I'm interested in the Prius. Prius is the volume car that has been getting all the buzz and it's turning out to be a huge scam.
Volume is what will create the pollution that these car produce during production and in the future during disposal.

Prius is the car that everybody will be buying to save fuel and the environment.

People buying the 400h or 600h don't need to worry about gas prices.

You should stop defending the Prius because it just shows your ignorance. Go and read the CBS article on the Hybrid or the CNW study that was released. I think even CNN did a story.

You are defending something that clearly has a flaw.

The average Joe that buys the Prius will save $400 of fuel per year if he can reach factory MPG claims and if he commutes within a city.

The car has a 100k mi (they claim) lifespan. Do you honestly believe that the depreciation on these cars will be worth the $400 that you save per year?

Lets not even get started on the environmental impact since we all know it takes a lot more energy (pollution) to produce one and the recycling impact is still unknown.

I think many of you are missing the point.

First, Lexus makes fine quality automobiles and seems to be finally getting a bit of a clue on the performance, handling, and visual appeal of their cars.

But comparing these to the German cars is truly an apple to oranges thing. And BTW, the current BMW is the 550i not the 545, and the current Merc is the E550 not the E500...for people who claim to be in the know, you're alittle behind. And the Lexus will not keep up with either one of them. And for good measure, the 2007 Audi A6 4.2 now has even more horsepower and torque due to the addition of FSI and is more than a match for any of them in performance and will embarass them in handling with Quattro; all for less money than any of them including the Lexus.<br>

But I digress.

You guys are really missing the heartbeat of the market if you think people buy German cars for the mileage or depreciated value 10 years down the road. People buy German cars for the power, handling, and prestige; pure and simple. And if you think a hybrid Lexus is going to change that, I suggest you up the dosage.

I do give Lexus credit for pushing the hybrid envelope (even if the didn't invent it). This will be a big benefit to the masses (read Prius driving public).

I also give Lexus credit for excellent build quality and improved designs with some of their new models (boy did they need it; most of the previous ones were pretty challenged stylistically).

And they have started participating in the horsepower race. I applaud this as well.

However, they have never been, and will likely never be a serious threat to any of the big 3 German makes in the high-end luxury or sports categories. One only needs to look at their abysmal sales figures in Europe over the last decade or so for absolute proof of this.

Plus I drive daily on the roads of car-crazy southern California, and BMW's, Merc's, and Audi's waaaayyyy outnumber higher end Lexus models. I do see a ton of Prius' though.

So please, realize that all these manufacturers are strong in their own market segment, but don't count on any of them encroaching much on the others territory any time soon.

And the guy's point about the problem around disposing of the batteries is quite valid whether you want to hear it or not. California is already considering adding a hefty charge to any Hybrid's sticker to cover the cost of proper disposal at the end of their life since they cannot simply be junked due to the hazarous materials.

Don't worry the Bluetec is on its way. It even meets California emission.

JT and Lexusadmirer,

To compare unproven technology (long term) to a 10 year BMW or Benz is so stupid it's not even funny.

My 10 year old car retained 30% of its value and it's not even a diesel.

A Hybrid will be worth nothing in 10 years. It will be recycled in 8-10 years.

You guys are comparing the MB and BMW to a car that is still not for sale.

MB's E550 is just around the corner to replace the aging E500.

To make it fair we should compare the hybrid to the E550.

With 382 hp and 391 torque it will smoke that Lexus.

Expect the same MPG as an E500. Leave it to the Germans to increase HP by 30% and keep the same MPG.

"Don't race the GS450h"...LOL

Is the GS450h some kind of racing car?

You make it sound like 5.2 sec is super car territory. Maybe 20 years ago.

It barely beats a huge car like the S550.
S550 specs are:
0-60 5.4 sec
16/24 mpg

Keep in mind that MB is always conservative with figures. With that ES I wouldn't race an S550, especially if the car is in motion.

The E550 will blow the doors off this ES. The E550 fuel economy will probably be better than E500.

If you are buying a Lexus hybrid for performance, you are clueless. That car is easily 300 lbs heavier than a conventional car. Extra weight and performance do not belong in the same sentence. How is the handling with the extra 300 lbs?

GS not ES.

I need a little help here gentlemen. 5.2 is not supercar territory, no one said it was. No, the GS450h is not a racing car, neither is the benz or the BMW, so what was the point of that question? The point of the whole thing is, the GS450h is fast & fuel efficent. No super car, but fast all the same. Lexus is conservative on their numbers as well. After they release their cars, there is always some periodical that posts faster times, so I can make the same arguement for LEXUS' times as well. Off the line, the LEXUS can be beat by some, but what about when you're already rolling like I mentioned earlier? The other cars would not keep up with the response the GS450h delivers. No exceptions. That is, no exceptions until they develope their own hybrid. 8 )

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Ok guys. There's no doubt Lexus' are good cars. But let's get serious here, they are still upscale Toyotas. Toyota must be recognized for their efforts and foresight into perfecting a technology, and marketing it in a way that made everyone think that it was the future and that one would be prehistoric if they didn't follow. But the truth of the matter is, the real engineers and pioneers are MOSTLY (some exeptions) the Germans. They have many many decades of engineering genius behind them and many more to come. They are not behind or slow. If they have chosen not to go that road, there is a viable reason and sceptics out there will be embarassed when the time comes. They are not followers, but leaders and if anyone doubts that, they know nothing oabout aotomotive engineering.

My post was deleted, yet it contained nothing offensive.

Matthew................... That's odd, I saw and read your last post a few days ago, and then it just disappeared, don't know why that happened. I actually thought there was something wrong with my computer at first.

Anyway, so back to the debate then. Over the weekend, I took the liberty in strolling into one of the local LEXUS dealerships in S. Cal, and they did have a GS450h hybrid. I did this because I try not to speculate and rather speak from experience and fact. It was just as I mentioned before, black exterior, black interior. Here are a few numbers, straight off the cars' stickers....

2007 GS450h
MPG - 25/28
Vehicle weight - 5200lbs vs. GS430 4675lbs
MSRP - 65K (had every available option)
Kw gauge - 0 - 250 (replaces tach)

They were kind enough to let me drive it just around the block. Trust me when I say it's fast. I have driven M5's, M3's, E class AMG, Audi S4//, and recently the 300C SRT-8 to name a few. The GS450h is definitely faster then the BMW's (not the M's), the Benz E class, the Audi S4//, and the 300C SRT-8 when the car is already rolling and you floor it. It is not as fast as the Audi from a stop, that's for sure!. Like I mentioned before though, it delivers all of its torque instantly, it's truly fun! There is no lost time between shifting, because it never shifts. The GS450h is not a rocket, but it does confidently stand on its own. I repeat what I said before, if you're in anything other than the AMG class, or the M's, the hybrid would likely win. I say that and I love BMW's. They are very amazing and fast, but the hybrid is going to disappoint a lot of people that don't respect the car.

Adressing a comment you made in the erased posting..... It used to be that form or function had a clear line to distinquish the two, but technological advances are blurring that line. The 0-60 comment could not be further from the truth. That is not all that matters. In fact, it means very little. In all those tests (as we all know) that 0-60 time is tried many times over and over, by professional drivers. The odds of you or me or anyone achieving those numbers is not likely. Automatic cars (AMG class, GS450h) are going to be somewhat close, because they're simple to drive. BMW M class, well, one little mistake shifting, and it's over if your competition has a decent car. The point is, car shoppers can now have luxury, technology, very good (but not super car Z06) performance, safety, and now decent fuel economy; For the price of a Z06, and some porsche's. The truth is (and the numbers don't lie) people would rather have the whole package with good performance, than a super car without many features but outstanding performance.

MEC, adressing your comment......... LEXUS used to be built on the same plateforms as some of the Toyota's. That is not the case in 2007. LEXUS now has their own team of engineers, designers, the whole nine, and they're producing differnt platforms for LEXUS to distinguish them from Toyota. In the past, the ES was the Camry, RX was the Highlander, etc. For 2007, that is not the case. The same is said for all the 2007's with exception of the RX/GX/and LX. I do see you're point though, they still share the same window switches, dimmer switches and the like. However, the same can be said for many others Maybach/Benz/Chrysler, Infiniti/Renault/Nissan, Acura/Honda, RR/Bentley/Audi/Porsche/Volkswagen, Cadillac/Chevy, Lincoln/Ford, etc. So where you are correct in your observation, the same can be said for most others as well. As far as innovation stands, times change! The Europeans are smart, very smart, and many new innovations rise out of that conglomerate. Daimler/Chrysler/Benz has lead the way in innovations in many areas for decades on end. But the Japanese are also very innovative. They are years ahead electronically then the rest of the world. I travel to Japan often for fun, and my Mother and other immediate family live in England, so I'm over there often as well. The innovations (especially electronics) that rise out of Japan are far ahead of the US and a good deal ahead of Europe. The current LEXUS LS430 drives completely independent with the UL package. It monitors traffic ahead and has lane guidance features. I have seen with my own eyes an owner of one of those cars sitting in stop and go traffic in Tokyo reading the newspaper behind the wheel. Japans roadways support such an advancement, and LEXUS is not the only one over there with that feature, there are other Japanese manufactures as well. After WWII, Japan realized they were not the superpower they once thought they were, and so they shifted their mentality. Instead of flexing force and power, they sell and exercise their minds. It is reflected in their products all over the world, not just cars. With fuel on the rise, the next 10 to 20 years will facilitate true automotive innovation, it's going to

Just to keep this fair the GS hybrid wasn't even on Lexus' website when you were claiming that it will be faster than competition. They just added it recently.

Rather than comparing it to the E500, that has a 10 year old engine why don't you reserve your comment until the E550 is released? We all know that you will not need an AMG to show who is boss.

BTW, thanks for confirming the weight for me. Not sure who in their right mind would buy this thing for performance when it's dragging an extra 500lbs with it.

I would rather spend a little extra on fuel than drag dead weight. It certanly doesn't help in the handling department.

OK, it's a date.

Back to the hybrid discussion. I'm really confused here. Why would anybody buy the GSh for performance if it's dragging an extra 500lbs?

Performance people are always looking at how they can shave a few pounds here or there.

@ 5200 lbs this thing is a whale.
I can only imagine how bad it handles with an extra 500 lbs.

Good point Kingsley. Just don't expect any Toyota fans to believe any of it. They don't even trust 2 year studies. I wonder what kind of excuses they will make 5-10 years down the road when we look at these early hybrids.