Even gas prices twice as much in the USA, Europeans less interested in hybrids

Still are not the answers to the fuel woes.... Yes they help save gas, but still rely on petrol... I wish we would be offered here in the states soon the CLEANER DIESEL FUEL so we may have a choice of hybrid or diesel.... The diesel motors being built now in Europe are awesome, full of torque and power and they, in some cases, are faster 0-60 than their petrol brothers....and get WAY BETTER GAS MILAGE!! Please bring us cleaner diesel soon so we may have these motors here for an option to hybrids.

Well if you look closely the many of the diesels in the euro market have more power than their gasoline counterparts in the same line, plus far more torque. Why pay $10K more for a car that will never recoupe that expense. Most of the owners of the new wave hybrids will never ever recoupe thier investment. <br>
<br>
Making a statement is one thing, but saving money and fuel dependencies is another. Report after report is slowly proving that most hybrids not driven with a feather touch will not come close to the advertised mileage. And to make it worse, if you drove your old car with that feather touch you would have seen dramatic savings in fuel. <br>
Diesel is the future, you are not going to get the masses to drive any car in a special manner or shell out $10K extra for a $5k savings over the life of the car. Basically the hybrid in it current incarnation is a stop gap measure at best.

I'm waiting for JT to comment on this article with his "Toyota knows best attitude."

I expect diesels to be a huge hit in the US.
I personally know 5 people that will make the switch.
Here are some interesting articles:

Mercedes-Benz Diesel May Cure Sticker Shock at the Pump
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4349780&EDATE=

In Wake of High Gas Prices, Demand for Diesel Cars and SUVs Jumped 31 Percent in 2005
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4349284&EDATE=

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-27-2006/0004349780&EDATE=

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-27-2006/0004349284&EDATE=

....and Diesels outnumber Hybrids, so the ratio of gas to Hybrids is even bigger. What's your point?

They are better for many reasons. Unlike Toyota that only has one pitch and it's being questioned lately with the new Camry, Avalon, and the crappy Scion brand.

I can definitely see Diesel hybrids in the future as soon as the hybrid technology becomes more efficient.

Ben and JT........you two sound like my wife and her girlfriends, chill.

I feel the sam way JT...LOL

The reason gas powered cars outnumber diesel powered cars is the fact that no one except VW offers a diesel for sale and that is because America is behind in getting the new cleaner Diesel II fuel. It will soon be available however and these wonderful motors (hopefully) will start to be offered here to us in the States....

JD Powers 2005? Hmmm so lets see Lexus is the highest reliability with 1.39 issues per car over the course of 3 years. Not bad, and you worry about a Mercedes Benz reliability factor of 2.83 issues over the same period. I don't really see the potential of 1.44 issues over the course of 3 years to be any deciding factor. that basically equates to the Lexus is 99.998% reliable during that span and the MB is 99.997% over thge same period. If you let a .003% factor cloud your judgement, then either you place too much into the figures or possible may not understand them fully. The differences are a mute point. In 2003 the VDS for Toyota was 2.76 so be using those figures and claiming a reliability issue for MB means the Toyota of 2003 is unreliable too. Sorry but the JD Powers results are figures you have to read to understand.

Ooops .001% difference

Simple math based off of the JD Powers VDS listing for 2005 (this means the model that posts the result is a 2003 model, it had to be in service for 3 years):

2005 Lexus score: 139 issues per 100 cars or 1.39 avg. per car over 3 years.
3 years = 1095 days now assuming that defect is a worse case and sidelines the cars (not the cigarette lighter failing to light) you are out 1.39 day and are running 1093.6 days (I know that is hard to quantify, but is is a worse case figure to prove the point.) 1093.6/1095= 99.87% of the time that car is not issue laden. This may be in layman’s terms but no matter how you run the figure it comes out about the same.

The hardest thing to quantify is the severity of the issue. (as far as I can tell no one does) Such as did the rearview mirror glue fail and it fell off or did the transmission faill? in the JD Powers VDS (supposedly the defacto standard) there is no difference.

In reference to the first URL yes Lexus posted a 38% improvement of the last year.. it went from 162 to 139 or 1.39 defects per car vs 1.62 what exactly is a .23 defect in a car? Some will have 0 and others will have 4 or 5 depends on the luck of the draw or the model.

Consumer Reports basically does the same however their figures are a bit more abstract and hard to quantify without the specific data they use. But I can give you an example a few years back VW had a bad batch of coil packs in the early 90's that failed in typically in the first 10K of service. All replaced under warranty for life for free (hey it happens). This affected about 2000 actual cars over a 5 year span and again typically in the first 10K. These cars are shown with significant engine issues due to this issue even though it affected a handfull of cars. GM recalls all of it trucks for 5 years for brake issues and get the same ding. One involves a handfull the other involves every one.

I guess we all have to remember that these entitites want and need to sell something: Consumer Reports needs to sell data and magazines, JD Powers data, MSN ad space on the web site. It you don't have huge readership you don't make revenue and you go by the way of the dodo. You while none of the sources are lying, the figures must be read fully and taken in the proper context. A car with 3 defects in 1095 days is not 3 time as unreliable. The facts do not support that.

If I took the facts at face value the Honda Accord with 43K that has been in the shop 5 times (to leaving it on the side of the road) in the last two years, is a better car that my 8 year old A4 that has never had a failure. Make no sense.

too many distractions at work today. The last paragraph should read:

If I took the facts at face value my Honda Accord with 43K that has been in the shop 5 times (two leaving it on the side of the road) in the last two years, is a better car that my 8 year old A4 that has never had a failure. Makes no sense.

Great post Plano_A4. You left JT speechless.

I feel sorry for people that purchase cars based on what they read in magazines.

Go out for a test drive and buy what suits you most. I don’t care who makes the car nobody can guarantee that you will have 0 issues. This is why we have warranties.

You two live in Toyota land. The only reason hybrids are selling in the US is because of good marketing and our bonehead government.

Name one thing that the hybrid does better than a diesel.

They are slow, pollute more, have a short life span, horrible resale value.... should I continue.

On the other hand diesel last forever probably up to 10X longer than a hybrid, low maintenance cost, cleaner, fast ...should I continue.

Get your heads out of Toyota's ass.

The only way a hybrid will make sense is when it becomes more efficient and maybe one day a diesel hybrid.

The hybrids that they offer today are GARBAGGE compared to the super clean European diesels.

Plano,
Don’t even bother replying to JT. No matter what you write he will keep posting the link to JD Power. He is like a 5 year old that keeps running in circles. He dodges questions from people that don’t share his TOYOTA view and keeps pasting JD Power surveys.

I shouldn't even reply to your biased comments. The hybrid will be worth nothing in 15 years at least a diesel will still be worth something in 15, 20, 30,.... years.

You just proved that you talk out of your ass. How can you compare cars that are not even on the same level? Do you know what happens to a $500k supercar when you drive it off the lot? It loses $100k.

Who the hell ever thought you to compare the resale value of an economy car to that of a luxury car?

What kind of resale value will the Prius have in 15-20 years?

ZERO ZERO ZERO

Just in case your mind can't grasp what I'm getting at.

If a $100K car depreciates 20% per year that is $20k.

If a $20k Prius depreciates 20% per year it will only be $4k.

Now tell me again how does your logic work again?

You don't even know the basics. How old are you again?

See what I mean about running in circles. It's useless talking to this guy. He just keeps repeating his post like a parrot.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

20% of a luxury car or a super car will always be more than that of an economy car.

Lets try something more extreme maybe you will get it.

A million dollar Bugatti might lose 20% @ $200k the first year. On the other hand a Prius will lose $4k.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND??????

You probably won't get it again and you will repeat your E300 vs Prius post.

What I'm really getting it at is that you should try to find a resale value of a diesel that is priced under $20K HELLO JT, ANYBODY HOME?

Find a resale value of a GOLF diesel and come back.

Here you go JT

2001 GOLF TDI 4D MSRP $17K

Private party value $13,250

You should really get your head out of Toyota's ASS. Anybody that truly believes that a hybrid can have a better resale value than a diesel needs to get his head examined.

HEY HYBRID BOYS CHECK OUT THIS DIESEL:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Volkswagen-Golf-GL-TDI-Diesel-Veg-oil-Hybrid-powered-ultra-low-emission-car_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ15292QQitemZ4638507871QQrdZ1

I used excellent condition with fewer miles, but whatever.
Try again JT without cheating and make sure to put the correct MSRP of $19,995 for the Prius. Can you imagine the idiots that paid over MSRP for the overrated hybrid?

Both cars at 68k miles (automatic for 4d Golf) and you get $11,500 for the TDI.

GTI: $17,400k-$11,500= $5,900
PRIUS: $19,995-$13K= $7,000

Don't even bother comparing with more miles because it starts getting really ugly for the Prius. Not to mention the TDI will be ticking 20 years from now and the Prius will be recycled twice.

Like I said before you need to get your head examined.

Only a retard would come here and compare an E300 to a Prius.

Of course a luxury car that costs $40K will loose more money every year. It's simple economics.

The bigger they are the bigger they fall. Unless it's some kind of collectors cars.

"But alright we'll round the Prius MSRP to 20k for the sake of math."

For the sake of math? Show me where a 2001 Prius has a MSRP of $19K. It's $19,995 period.

You are cheating again I told you AUTOMATIC.
Keep it fair since manuals are much less popular in the US.

$12,175

So, it's $5,225 compared to your $6k Prius.

It will always lose no matter what you change.

The difference would be even bigger if VW was as popular as Toyota. I should know because I bought a VW for use in Europe. They hold their value like a rock.
The perfect comparison would be a Prius Hybrid vs a Prius diesel. Since Toyota's are so popular in the US.

You really need to get your head examined for even comparing a diesel to a hybrid.
Try increasing the mileage and see what happens to the value of the Prius. Just wait until the first batteries start failing. The resale value will drop like a rock.
The diesel will always be worth something. Even 20 years from now. The Prius on the other hand will be worth ZERO.

JT:

We have he same data and the same URL

JT >>>I'm going to make this very simple:
JT>>> Lexus ranks 1st and reports 189 problems
JT>>> Mercedes ranks 28th reports 283 problems JT>>>(way below industry average)

First of all consider investing in a pair of glasses OR slow down a bit and digest the facts

Mistake #1: Lexus rank 1st indeed, with 139 NOT 189 problems

Mistake #2: You missed the fact that this figure is for EVERY 100 CARS produced or simple math of 1.39 defects per car avg over the course of the survey.

JT>>>Percentages and what nots aside, Mercedes JT>>>ranked very low. Industry average is 237. JT>>>They are below Chrysler, Chevy, and Mercury.

This is a true fact, a more complex vehicle typically will have more parts and can have a higher failure rate. Part of pushing the edge of technology, not riding on the coat tails. But basic QA math

JT>>>But if you want to include percentages, we JT>>>can do that too! So here is how I did it:
JT>>>I took the amount of problems divided by JT>>>the 1095, and it gave me a percentage.
JT>>>Lexus is at 17% meaning that there is a 17% JT>>>chance that something will go wrong with a JT>>>Lexus over 3 years.

Mistake #3: Since it is for every 100 cars produced, move the decimal over 2 spots, and BTW I corrected it to the correct value 1.39 Defects/1095 Days= .00126 or .126% chance of a defect surfacing per day.

JT>>>The least reliable brand, Kia, is 36% JT>>>likely to have a problem with their car JT>>>over a period of 3 years.
JT>>>The difference between Lexus and Kia is JT>>>19%. Lexus' are 19% more reliable than JT>>>Kia's.
JT>>>Mercedes has a 25% chance of something going wrong with their cars in three years.

Mistake #4: While the math is incorrect due to the incorrect calculation in Mistake #2, your basic principle of one potentially having less issues is true. However since you are subtracting percentages from each other (something you really can't do), you are pointing out mearly the differences in the two percentage figures, NOT the defect rate and reliability factor. So those figures are not really of much value.

JT>>>Lexus' are more reliable than Mercedes by JT>>>8%. Not .003 like you previously stated.

Mistake #5: Again Lexus 99.873% MB in this case 99.736% (Yes I forgot to do the percentage correct before, but I caught it...heat of the moment?) so the difference actually is .3% Mathmatical but irrelevant.

JT>>>That’s unfortunate, but not impossible. On JT>>>a side note, Audi ranked lower than JT>>>Mercedes with 312 problems while Honda JT>>>rated 201. But maybe your Accord was JT>>>just a lemon.

LOL I was waiting for that! but the Audi is another argument all together! The Honda maybe atypical, but the Nissan we have is far, far worse. 4 years and $5K in repairs in the last 12 months with 48K on it, not a prime example of Japanese workmanship.

Since you like JD Powers so much why don't you add up IQS and VDS results to get the real picture of the overall ownership experience.. It can be suprising. Not really much of an issue right now but with 2006 IQS coming out and all of the quality issues at the Toyota plants over the last year, Toyota is in for a nose dive. Life is always hard at the top. Really there is not a real final argument. Until any reporting entity ranks the defect by severity. But now that isn't exciting. Or should I just invest in a new Avalon, I hear they are hovering around 10 to 15 defects per car on the IQS... YIKES!!! where is Yugo when you need it?

Before you start posting crap again.
Yesterday you were comparing your $1200 Prius depreciation to that of a luxury car @ $3100 to show the inferiority of your Toyota.

Today we are at $1200 vs $1045 for the GTI. Keep in mind this is the US where Toyota products hold more value than VW.
The difference would be even bigger if Toyota offered some kind of diesel under $20K in the US.

In 10 years the TDI will still be worth at least $5K. It will continue to depreciate around $1k per year. On the other hand the Prius will be at the junkyard with zero value. $20K down the drain in 10 years. $2k per year, which is, double the depreciation of the TDI.

BTW, did you bother to look at that ebay link.
Check out the potential of every diesel. You can run them on used restaurant oil.


WE CAN GROW OUR OWN FUEL AND HAVE CLEAN AIR. INSTEAD OF DRILLING AND POLLUTING.

BTW, I'm not a green freak or anything, but if you’re buying the Prius to help the environment and your pocket you really don't have a clue. Prius owners should really do some research.

In the long run the Prius will pollute more than a conventional car and it will be worth $0 in 10-15 years.

Maybe the GREEN BOYS should start egging Prius' instead of SUVs.

Maybe my Accord was a lemon too. It blew the transmission at 45k mi.

My Camry was a lemon too. Blew the trans @ 50k mi.
Damn I keep buying Japanese lemons.

With my bad luck I wonder how I ever bought multiple MBs from 1988-2005 with hardly any issues.

Whatever you say JT. You’re probably the only idiot that believes a hybrid has great resale value....LOL
Let me know how that Prius works out for you when it hits 100k mi and the batteries start failing.

You give new meaning to a hardcore Toyota fan.

You know it's crap and you still defend it. You don't even own one. You just go by what Toyota claims. Go drive one an let me know what kind of MPG you get with normal driving style, not some 90 year old grandma style.
At least I own a Golf diesel and know what the car is capable of. BTW, it hardly loses any value in Europe. I can still pretty much sell it for the amount that I bought it for.

Where is that genius Prius vs. E300 comparison of yours...LOL?

I think you do need glasses my friend
From the EXACT URL you went to. If you can't see it clearly, please turn the resolution down on the monitor.

Lexus #1 1 @ 139
Porsche #2 @ 149
Lincoln #3 @ 151
Buick #4 @163
Cadillac #4 @ 175
Infiniti #5 @ 178

By your accounts of 189 Lexus would rank #6

Notice a trend here? as you rank lower the defects per 100 go up, not down. So 139 is correct.

Hint: if you look at the bar graph you also see Lexus is under the 150 mark...


As per the per 100 produced figure you think is bunk. JD Powers calls it (PP100). Here you go! Cut and pasted directly from the site you listed:
"The industry average improves 32 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100) compared to 2004"

So, again, if you have 139 defects per 100 cars produced you get an avg of 1.39 defects per car or 139 per 100.

I know a good optometrist if you need one... ;)

I see a lot of attention being focused towards you, you might wanna give it up on this one and live to fight another day. I will always be here

go here and read:

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060511/AUTO01/605110403/1148

J.D. Power overhauls car quality survey

Quote #1:
The results are based on the number of problems reported per 100 models. Last year, Lexus topped all brands with 139 problems per 100 models tracked, or an average 1.39 glitches per model. Kia, with 397 problems per 100 models tracked, placed last in the 2005 study.


Quote #2:
Survey questions will be broken down into two categories, defects and malfunctions, and design problems. The design category allows respondents to comment on shortcomings that are not a mechanical problem but still an issue, such as the placement of cup holders or factory-installed CD-changers in the glove box.

It seems the reliability results are sooooo close between top and bottom they need to stir the pot a bit to keep showing diffences. I guess fractional differences in reliability are not enough.

MORON ALERT...your last statement sums everything up.

Man you seriously got no clue...the fact of the matter is that Diesels do have far better resale than hybrids in most places outside the US.
Anyone who dares to dispute this is stupid or just plain ignorant. Ben is correct when he states that in Europe Diesel vehicles hold their value unbelieveably. Going by your USA-Centric posts JT i dont think you know that there are any other countries in the world.

People on this forum seriously DONT BOTHER arguing with JT, he never responds to your questions when he knows that your right and he vigourously defends Toyota/Lexus at every available opportunity by quoting JD Power surveys. Wake up JT - there is no such thing as a JD power survey outside the US. why? you ask, because it means nothing. Ben i salute you, your not so ignorant as to believe the US is the centre of the automotive world and you actually respond to peoples points.

JT...... WTF DO Drive?

A Tercel or a Corolla? or bit more upscale

Toyota does make a decent product, but most are a souless and devoid of character. Reliable yes indeed, but "generic" in the truist sense of the word. I would recommed them to people that really are not an enthusists, and merely want basic reliable day to day transport, AND don't mind seeing themselves at every traffic light. The Lexus SUV here are just like taxis, a dime a dozen. If you prefer to stand out a bit, or show taste you buy something else.

I guess it is kinda like buying a Rembrant or a litograph copy of one. The original has soul and moves you, but it must be cared for. The lithograph is something you hang on the wall in a plastic frame because you think it looks cool. Both are art to a degree, but one will always be only a copy.
Maybe those who stray from the flock (toyota), really don't care about minute percentage points in reliability, or the fact they are so popular. These "rebels" tend to gravitate for expression and precision and leading edge technology. Not mearly a rehash of 3 year old technology. To truely lead, you must "INNOVATE" not copy. If you take the time to read automotive production history you will see one thing loud and clear. Over 80% of the truely defining innovations in the automotive world are either German or American. The Japanese have mearly a handful of these and most of those are in the last 10 years. Where have they been in changing the course of technology? Leading by a few minute points in reliabilty by riding on the coat tails of other may be the way.

You tell me.

I give you a challenge. Name 10 truly great innovations that Toyota brought to the automotive market over all of history. The hybrid as in the case of the Prius, was Honda forte'. So hack away at the books bubba, and see what you find.

Look, Learn, Educate. You might see things in a different light.

Sounds a bit like you have run out of ammo..<br><br>
<br><br>
Can't name a single Lexus/Toyota innovation of merit? Either you are not as educated in the brand as you think you are, or there are none. You tell me. This is typical of marquee freaks that can't back up a simple argument with a fact. Maybe because there are none?<br><br>
<br><br>
I see you skirted the question about what you drive. My guess is that you do not own a Toyota product, maybe in love from a far? Sweet but so sad.<br><br>
<br><br>
You say Mercedes is half as reliable as a Lexus, you obviously flunked out of grade school math. I guess since you missed 5 more questions on a 100 question quiz you feel that those that those scoring 100% were 5 times smarter than you? They were 5% at best. Your math holds no water and not a single person on this posting series backs you up. I wonder why?<br><br>
<br><br>
Innovation is not everything, but if it were left up to those that did not innovate, you would still be driving a death trap fom the 60's.<br><br>
<br><br>
Well I see you never adressed the original challenge for some reason, and like to quote about a friend's MB irrelevant issue. I prefer to go about what I know and have lived. I have owned many cars including Hondas, Mazdas, Nissans and even a Toyota. I will not stoop to calling them crap like you seems to relish. I call the ownership of these cars as uneventful and very generic. Taxis at best. Drive and dare own a german car an you will see what I mean. But you would never do that. It is too easy to hide behind some 3rd parties survey rather than drive a true driving machine. Simply read the enthusists magazine reviews of the german cars you loathe, and what do they say? Superlative review typically follow. Heck even consumer reports list the Germans on their best buy list.<br><br>
<br><br>
You argument are basically worthless due to the fact that you hide behind trivialities and urban legends. When you can pony up some proof you will have an easier time with it.<br><br>
<br><br>
The best is yet to come Honda, Nissan , and even Toyota are grappling with major quality issues the last two years. And your touted VDS report will echo that out. The badges are already tarnishing and the tide will shift again. Everything in life is cyclical and the new kids on the block will be back in the middle of the pack where they belong. If I were you I would worry less about the Germans and more about the Koreans, they are your true foe.

3:48 AM!!! for your last post! Dang! Now I do feel important!

Well we can go back and forth about each brands merits and past owner history if you like. What we both seem to polarize on, is that we made the best choice for each of us. (duh!)

You gravitate towards the reliability factor which is a strong suite for your brand of choice. And one in which the bar is set very high.

I gravitate towards innovation and individuality and expression. I worry far, far less about the reliability factor. Due to the fact that any issue most likely will not put the car out of commission, simply be an annoyance at worst. And simply put, 1 or 2 extra visits for an issue over 3 years is nothing in the overall mix. Just schedule a visit and pick up a courtesy car and go.

I guess that is why some people (not us) are accountants and others are athletes. Different strokes for different folks.

The differences are night and day, My wife drives Japanese simply for the same reason that you tout, reliability. HOWEVER she even mentions that my German car with 142K on it has had less issues than her car has had in the first 40K. My car is a 1998 her is a 2000. Her car is up for replacement, and now she is torn. Do I go with what everyone else says is reliable ? (Japanese) Or should she go with what I see at home is more reliable (German). She also noted that the German cars tend to rank higher in crashworthiness than the Japanese. Another factor that is important to her. (Around here a yellow light means 5 more cars can go and red means 2 more can).

She is torn, for every JD Powers survey there is, another states it a different way. In europe for example Toyota and Honda are ranked like 9th and 10th overall. Different driving values over there bring up different shortcomings. They also tend to gravitate more for control and handling where Americans go for how soft the car rides ect...

The BIG problem with any survey is subjectivity. A Lexus owner may simply ask less of his vehicle than a Mercedes owner and therefore have a higher satisfaction level, it is relative to the role the car plays for the owner. Down here we have a lot of 30K millionaires. People that make $30-$40 a year and drive a car with a $700 payment. Those people are living more on the edge than a typical premium class owner. To them reliability will be a deciding factor. They simply can not afford the cost of an issue.
I guess the true question to those individuals, is have you bitten off more than you can chew?

Anyway you look at it no one can claim reliability as the only factor to buy a car. It is Total Cost of Ownership and perceived satisfaction, sometime that is not quite a black and white as we want to believe.

As for you question about the C350 vs the IS350

To me not much of a contest:
C350 for basically the same reasons this review wrote:
http://www.cartoday.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=035333

But you can probably find an example of another test that differs. (Isn't free speech wonderful) Funny that same magazine has 6 pages of Toyota ad in it and one BMW and no Mercedes Benz ads. Yet it still ranked the Lexus 3rd (that usually does not happen, money talks). Lack of personality, bland handling, lack of character. Funny reliability didn't even make a blip on the radar screen. BTW the Lexus is brand new design (and a very nice one too) and the MB is several years old. so even with a clean slate and prime examples to go by, they still could not beat a several year old German design. Typical. Life is not all about 0-60, most people go around corners too.

There you have at it. Since this thread is getting old, if you would like to spar a bit more, we can move to a newer appropriate thread where the conversation may get some outside opinions. I actually enjoy this a bit, you have passion at least and that makes it fun and interesting.

I am moving up the threads a bit. you can respond to my previous post but I will have to cross paths with you in the future threads. I doubt I will refer back to here again.

You see JT I'm not the only one with this opinion. I know it's hard to prove, but I'm certain that Lexus owners expect less from their cars. I've seen it with my own eyes. My friend with a SC300 had numerous small problems that never bothered him. The only time he would take the car in for service would be for a major problem. Like the time his AC broke (evaporator leak).
Before you start posting the same old crap that you know BMW and MB owners that switched to Lexus. Let me just say that is a very small number of people. The majority of Lexus owners were Toyota owners.

If I were as picky with my Camry as I am with my MBs the car would be at the shop every day.

BTW, stop making excuses for the new IS. It lost to an aging C class. If it had a sport suspension, if it had this or that…too much BS. How about if it went against a C55 or the new C class due in 08?

Actually I didn't bother naming more people, but I know of 3 more one with a LS, one with IS and one with a GX. The first one went from a Land Cruiser to an LS, the other from a Camry to an IS, and the third was another Camry to GX.

All three could care less about cars as long as they drove from A to B. I rode with them numerous times and found (in my opinion) a lot of small nagging problems. If it were my car it would have been at the dealership, but it didn't bother them.

That is a total of 4 that I know personally.

BTW, who said anything about owning a C class? You think you can smoke a C55 too?

Just as fast doesn't cut it my friend. Anybody that wrote that obviously knows nothing about performance.

Mercedes claims 0-60 4.9s
Lexus claims 0-60 5.3s

That's half a second. If you knew anything about performance you would know that is a huge difference. Ohh wait a minute you drive a Lexus you know nothing about performance.

Keep dreaming about Lexus performance.
Until then the C55 with 362hp and 372 lb-ft will wipe the floor with the 306hp/277 lb-ft IS350.

BTW, I did notice the 5.6 sec time for the IS on Edmunds.
Knowing MB and how conservtive they are with their figures the C55 would rape the IS350 by almost a full second.

Yeah yeah I've been down this road before... if we add this if we add that...it never really ends.

This is why I let F1 do the talking with their whopping 400+ million budget.

The IS350 can't even handle a C350 on the twisties. What makes you think it can even compare to a C55?

Really? Like what?
What kind of mods would you add and keep the reliability of the hand built C55 engine? NOS? Turbos?

Keep dreaming buddy. If they were capable of making a better car they would have built it.

You just completely dodged the reliability issue. You can strap turbos and NOS to any car. SO what?

Lets not even go down this road because I have a friend that owned a turbocharged IS? It was the most unreliable piece of crap ever. Fun as hell when it works, but very unreliable and expensive.

I told you earlier these type of discussion never end. If I add turbo, if I add NOS, if I strap a rocket to my car, etc.
If somebody gave you $400 million to mod an IS you would end up with an F1 car and we both know how crappy Toyota is in F1.

I can't prove mods are unreliable. Really? Says who?

Even Jo in Alabama knows that if you take an engine and transmission that was designed for 306 hp and start adding mods to it and end up with 600 hp that something has to give.

You're the only ignorant person that would think you could add $30k worth of engine mods and keep it as reliable as the factory. Why don't you ask your dealer what would happen to you warranty if you decided to add another 300hp to your IS.

Not Mercedes. That would be just one problem extra per 3 years. We are talking about the type of quality that would make a YUGO look like the most reliable car in the world.

Exactly. You finally get it!!! I'm so proud of you. It's 2.83 problems per one car ON AVERAGE. The key word is average JT. Some might have 1, some 3, some 6, some 10, but on average one car out of the 100 that had 283 problems will have 2.83 problems.

Nothing can be more flawed than dividing 139 PROBLEMS by 1095 DAYS.

You're a genius JT.

It's time to look at how flawed your brainless conclusion of 13% and 26% really is. I will use 1st grade analogy for you.

If somebody put 139 bombs inside of 100 cars (distributed unevenly) do you really think that you would have an 87% chance of picking a car without a bomb? According to you a Lexus has a 13% chance of having a problem in 3 years. Which means you have an 87% chance of getting a trouble free car in 3 years.

Sure whatever you say JT. Keep dividing problems by number of days. It sure makes a lot of sense in Toyota land. Get some medical help my friend.