Is the Lexus LS-460 the king of high-tech?

The new S-Class is very very nice in person and the interior is top notch. So far the LS looks sweet from the exterior, but gotta see it in person. The 7 will be left behind, but I am sure BMW will change that soon. Gotta love recent flagship models, you can't lose! They all are coming out with technology to help assist drivers while driving (7 series least of all; for now). All of the features besides the multiple cameras are equal to S-Class, but the S-Class has brake assist that LS does not have. So call it even and leave it to preference.

The new S-class is not in serious trouble.

Dealers in my area are totally backed up on orders and a sport AMG S550 is a year wait for some.

Not to mention the car looks and drives fantastic.

When Lexus introduced the LS in the early 90's....do you think Mercedes was in trouble then............NO.

What has changed. The S-class is more fantastic than ever.

And you mention $100,000......guess what the Lexus Hybrid LS costs,,,,,,,,,,,$100,000.

I cant imagine someone with 100 grand choosing the Toyota over the proven 7 series and S class.

How much of a fan are you of MB? How much do you know about the cars? There is no "AMG S550". There is an S550 though... and, an S55 AMG.

The LS Hybrid costs close to $100,000, but there is a reason for this. Dare to compare what you get in an MB S Class for $100,000 and the LS 600h for $100,000?

You can't imagine? I guess you have no imagination or lack critical thinking. Somebody, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the LS outsell or is at LEAST very comparable in sales to both the S and 7?

The S class is in trouble? I've been hearing the same BS for the last 15 years.

MB really underestimated the demand for the new S. My local dealers are completely sold out.

The LS looks like an obese Camry. How can you even compare that Lexus turd to this

Your logic makes no sense at all. The rear is BMW. Really? Do you want me to post Maybach pictures from 1996? Fender flares are Mitsubishi. Really? As far as I know fender flares have existed since the invention of the automobile.
The headlights are from Nissan. Really from what model?

With your logic auto manufacturers should just stop designing cars.

There will always be similar details. The problem is when a car looks 80-90% like another car. Best example LS430 and the W140 S class 92-99.

Two can play this game.

The taillights are from a Honda, exhaust straight from an Acura, the whole front end with headlights straight from an Acura.
All grip door handles straight from MB.

It also has the Banglebutt or Maybach trunk. Call it whatever you want.

At least the S class doesn't have an identity crisis. I love how even a Toyota fan calls Lexus products Toyota and then JT jumps in to save the day. I told you a million times JT if you are so ashamed of the Toyota/Lexus link why even bother buying a Lexus?

At least the S class looks like nothing else on the road. It has great presence. Unlike the LS that has the typical obese ass straight from the Camry.

Good luck trying to figure out if you're driving behind a Camry or an LS.

They all have headlights, 4 wheels, doors, tail lights. With so many car makers and so many models, they are bound to have similarities. They will all look alike because the car makers are scared to bring out cars that don't follow a formula. Look at the backlash that BMW got on the 7 series! It doesn't look like any other car so it's ugly? wtf? I owned a 2003 745 and I loved the fact that it looked like a spaceship, like nothing else. Now they have dumbed down the look like a smart girl acting dumb to garner attention...

Yes, the S550 is in pretty short supply. That's all that is correct about your comment. I am in the market for an S550 and there are tons of them out there for sale even though each dealer is only getting ~6 a month. What car would not be in short supply if you are only releasing a few at a time?

If you are looking for an AMG sport (S550 with AMG rims and tags), my local dealer has 2 on the ground, ready for delivery to anyone with 98k.

There is no official pricing for the LS460h. It may be more than 100k! (or less)

"I cant imagine someone with 100 grand choosing the Toyota over the proven 7 series and S class."
Well, I have 100 grand and I want the most for my hard earned cash. I would buy the Lexus every day of the week and twice on Sunday over the MB if it was available now.

Please guys, get your facts straight when you post. Never lie or BS about facts that are readily available. You are on the internet already for goodness sake, google before you post!

I wonder how much YOU know about cars?

I am referring to the S550 equipped with the AMG Sport Package.

However the AMG S63 will be here soon.

Have you guys ever seen a Lexus that has just arrived at the dealership off the truck?

THERE ARE TOYOTA STICKERS ALL OVER IT

And that is a fact my friends.

And I would be willing to bet anything the Lexus Hybrid will cost $100,000. They will position the car to go head to head with the 760Li, S600, W12 A8L etc. I have actually heard north of 100 grand.

Ben You should seriously consider getting yourself a life. It wont cost you anything, you are very boring! Familiarity breeds Boredom.

Bye!! please dont come back to this blog.
Rather Stick to BMW OR MB blogs!! please please!!
LEXUS DOES NOT OWE YOU ANYTHING!!

Like it or not Lexus is the New king town not only in the IS, but the GS and LS segement as well. Their car are far more superior than their competitor. Just because they did not have a long list of racing history Does Not make them inferior. Please with your idiot common how it just a rebadge Toyota, if you say that, than I can say the same the M3 is that not same 3serie? no, same thing with the IS350 is way difference than a Toyota. More technology, work, time and engineering are put the Lexus Divison. It is not fair to say that Audi is just a rebadge VW, or M3 is same is 3 series they are not. It not fair to says that MB is just chrysler with MB logo on it and sales for 4-8 times more than a chryler. Since Chrysler bought MB in what 1994 or 2000 forgot which year it was in. Just because Chryler own MB does that mean the new MB is a expansive Chrysler "No". Same thing with Lexus just because it mother campany is Toyota, it Not the Same thing a Lexus. Lexus is far more superior in both product and technology than the Toyota, although they are the same company. So stop your bitching and crying and except they fact as they are. Lexus and other Asian car is taking over. Just wait until 2008-2009 when all of the Japanese Supercar is release. To name a few the IS450-500 GT 450 HP to 500 HP, Lexus LF-A 500+ Hp, Toyota supra 400-450 horse power, Honda NSX 500+ HP, Nissan GT-R 400-450 horse power.

Lexus

"Please with your idiot common how it just a rebadge Toyota, if you say that, than I can say the same the M3 is that not same 3serie? no,"

No....you cant.

The M3 arrives saying BMW built....not 3-series motor company.

The 3-series is not a car company.

All Lexus vehicles arrive with Toyota Motor Company stickers all over it.

BMW has become known for being one of the few independent car manufacturers left.

You may not think this is fair.....but its certainly true.

The only people who beg to differ are the ones who drive a Lexus.

"who really cares whether BMW are independent"-------me

"Just because a company has more than one nameplate, does that make it non-independent?"---------basically... yeah

"And, who cares if Lexus and Toyota are the same company"----me and Im sure others who are dropping 50-100 grand on their cars.

"Man Nate, BMW has you sold with that rediculous "independent" car company jargon"-----honestly no...but their cars have. They drive like no other.

"I would rather drive a Camry than a car that breaks down all of the time"-----and here is the only reason people buy Toyota's.

I would rather have an excellent driving car that is built like a vault and looks good for years on end.

Lemme tell u how it works here. Mercedes benz is trying to make there flagship model their most luxurious model besides Maybach akmost the smae but that is just the tail lights. I mean toyota does that for every model except the Is and Gs. The Es is the camry. The Is looks like the Gs. The Ls is the es and Gs mixed. And Bmw is on their own their designs are no where else.

A REAR only a mother could love

I'm just curious. For a company that has never invented anything how can they have the most technologically advanced car?

Lex,
You're either very ignorant or you work for Toyota. Let me get this straight you are bragging about Toyota being a homebuilder?

You might want to read up on Daimler-Chrysler and see all that they are involved with. Like Aerospace engineering, making spacecraft components, rockets, ion thrusters, navigation satellites, solar systems, aircraft components (Airbus), diesel truck, boats, zero emission hydrogen trucks and buses that are being tested by UPS and many other public transportation companies.

When you get a heart attack chances are the ambulance that takes you to the hospital will be powered by Mercedes Benz.

My father's $1.5 million dollar yacht is powered by MTU engines, which is Mercedes and so is MAN. Ever heard of MTU or MAN diesels?

You might want to do some research on other manufacturer before you start bragging about Toyota being a homebuilder.

The list sure beats being a home contractor. At least MB has the brains of sticking to what they do best.
Lets not talk about creating stuff from scratch because there is no other manufacturer that created more from scratch than MB.

Keep in mind MB created everything by selling luxury cars. They were not created by a company that sold econo boxes to the masses.

Please ladies, you all sound so silly. Buying a car is a totally subjective thing to most people. Some people like one thing, some another and both will have tons of evidence as to why their way is best. Sort of like religion in a way. My only other comment is that while I drive a 2006 Infiniti M45, which I have found to be the best car I have ever owned and I have owned many of the brands being discussed here. One of my best friends, who is a judge bought a BMW 7 Series the same time I bought the Infiniti. In that year, he has had to have the 7 Series towed 170 miles to the dealership three times. He is not a happy camper in that respect. The Infiniti has not had one single problem and will blow the doors off his 7. We have gone to the old abandoned airport two or three times and had some fun, more fun perhaps than men of our stature and age should have but what the hell. While he cusses his BMW constantly, he wouldn't trade places with God. There you have it. Subjective subjective subjective, etc.

You’re wrong again. Williams is Williams. They just partnered with Cosworth. BMW is independent this year.
Mercedes owns 40% of Mclaren and are looking to buy the remaining 60%.
You're probably not too familiar with F1 because Toyota stinks at it just like any other form of motorsports they compete in. They have by far the biggest yearly budget in F1. It's well over the $400 million mark.

They give new meaning to "MORE MONEY THAN BRAINS."

And your point.......

I have a friend who got rid of his new M45 after 2 months. The tranny blew, the speakers covers kept detaching, the Nav screen went dead every other day, a Xenon headlight went out in the first week, not mention the plastic and leather in the car was wearing terribly after a couple months. I personally feel as thought the M45 is very overrated and overpriced. Feels like a Nissan to me. The leather in all Nissan/Infiniti's is HORRIBLE. So thin, so cheap, no grain, no odor, bland. And you could break everything in that interior with your hands alone. CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP.

We all have these little horror stories. Everyone knows someone with a horrible ownership experience.

We don't have to worry about MB being outbid. They own 40% of Mclaren already.

Here is the article.

"Mercedes-Benz has described the prospect of buying the remaining 60 per cent of McLaren as 'an option'.

Competition chief for the German carmaker, Norbert Haug, suggested that 'discussions' about the matter were likely to take place in the future.

Mercedes' minority share aside, Ron Dennis and Mansour Ojjeh own the Woking-based F1 team.

Haug told 'Motorsport Aktuell': 'There is no decision about that (issue).'

He explained that he cannot imagine a 'better partner' than McLaren for Mercedes' grand prix foray. 'Ron is a good partner and my friend.'

Haug continued: 'Of course, we do not always have the same opinions!'"

Ben,Gert123456,NateFates,Sunny & company

If lexus is so inferior, then why do you waste your time on Lexus blogs?

One thing I have noticed though is that Lexus blogs are always the longest,Sometimes with record braking comments.

Lexus must be doing something right for you to spend so much of your energy Bashing them and their fans. JT,Will,Lexus & others I admire you for standing up for what you believe in.

They all claim Lexus is inferior or not comparable to MB & BMW, now why would they even bother arguing about something that is not up to their standards, umhhhhhh! I wonder, I am curious as to why!

Please ask the Bashers if they have ever heard of selective percetion? I think they are suffering from it.

AND BEN, TOYOTA IS DOING MUCH BETTER THAT BMW SAUBER IN THE 2006 F1 SEASON YOU GOT THAT!!

sorry for posting twice.

For some reason you totally forgot to mention that BMW Sauber is basically a brand new team. They will need time to get back at the front without Williams.
Toyota on the other hand has been in F1 for 5 years. They have two huge advantages one being the biggest budget in F1 and second having everything under one roof (engine and chassis).

What did Toyota accomplish with their $2-3 BILLION INVESTMENT?

THE ONLY THING THEY ACCOMPLISHED WAS GETTING CAUGHT CHEATING AND GETTING CHARGED WITH INDUSTRIAL ESPIONAGE.

THEY HAVE ZERO WINS TO THEIR NAME.

HOW EMBARASSING IS THAT?

I usually visit Lexus blogs because you guys make interesting case studies. I always wondered how a person can spend $70-80k on a wannabee MB that is designed and assembled by the same people that brought us the Toyota ECHO.

Since you are trying to convince us that Toyota is this great and smart company why don't you give us a list of what exactly Toyota invented or pioneered?

Here you go:
http://www.cartoday.com/content/motorsport/formula1/singlepage.asp?in=7739

Toyota forced Team Principals to resign quickly in order to avoid charges.

This is my favorite part:

'you have ten minutes to collect your things'

Automotive pioneering and inventions? Really? Where? Did you even bother to read any of it?
Looks more like a list of useless patents or something similar.

133 6,753,435 Intermediates for vitamin D and processes for the preparation thereof

113 6,814,988 Process for optimizing milk production

Maybe Toyota is working on a system that fills your Lexus cabin with Milk and Vitamin D during an accident.

Go do some research and come back with innovations that we actually use today like SRS, ABS, crumple zones, Xenons, ESP, BAS, DOOR ASSIST, KEYLESS GO, SMART KEYS, etc.

What point?
Like I said earlier give me a list of something useful from the Toyota camp that is being used in every car today. Don't come here with some useless list of patents. I'm not even sure what this list is. It looks like some kind of patent list from all the companies owned by Toyota. However, most of it is retarded like Automobile is listed 10 times without any other description, Automobile bumper, automobile taillight, Milk, Vitamin D, etc.
What the hell is this?

If this is some kind of list of patents from their companies maybe we should start looking for patents from Maybach, Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Smart, Freightliner, Detroit Diesel, Man Diesel, MTU Diesel, Orion Buses, Setra, Mitsubishi, Sterling Trucks, Thomas Buses, Western Star Trucks, Airbus, Daimler Bank, Daimler Financial, etc.

You get the point?

"Is the Lexus LS460 the king of high-tech?"
Without any wait i'll say yes.

It is a perfect Ultra Luxury Saloon.

LEXUS:Success

1)Lexus reache for the sky:

Lexus LS,a true rival for all big Germans.And this is only the start of Lexus's bold new World.

Beat Germans at their own game:quantity,quality,innovation

2)Toyota's deep pockets:

Lexus is able to make so many new cars so quickly because it's a part of Toyota.Toyota market value is $255bn according to the Wallstreet journal.

In 2003,Toyota assigned 2000 of it's 13000 designers and engineers to Lexus,and we're already seeing the results.European sales alone could almost quadruple to 100,000 cars a year by 2010.

3)Secret of Toyota's Success:

Lexus became the US's most popular luxury brand by making bulletproof cars.In 2005,the JD power vehicle dependability/reliability survey crowned Lexus as the car maker with the least faults for the 11th year running.MB was in 27th place
(MR BEN).

Lexus quizzes every new owner to check they r happy with their dealer.
According to Lexus spokesman:"Having 80% of satisfied coustomers might be okay for some brands,but we want to be in high 90s"
Today lexus has the best dealers and most Satisfied Coustomers ever.

4)Performance hybrids:(Read very important)

Lexus is on course to sew up the luxury hybrid market,while BMW and MB play ctach-up.
Lexus hybrids'are all about pure driving excitement,instant acceleration,the fell of g forces'says GS450h chief engineer SHIGETOSHI MIYOSHI.FUEL CONSERVATION IS A SECONDARY BENIFIT.

LS600h will be the first V8 petrol electric hybrid and will do 0-100 in 5 seconds.It's more than 2 years ahead of Germans planned hybrids,Meanwhile lexus is increasing product of the RX400h to reduce waiting lists.


Lexus----an overall Winner
Insiders says in 6-9 years lexus will cross all Luxury brands and will become the Highest selling Luxury brand in the world.


JUGNU----->THE CARMAN

"Is the Lexus LS460 the king of high-tech?"
Without any wait i'll say yes.

It is a perfect Ultra Luxury Saloon.

LEXUS:Success

1)Lexus reache for the sky:

Lexus LS,a true rival for all big Germans.And this is only the start of Lexus's bold new World.

Beat Germans at their own game:quantity,quality,innovation

2)Toyota's deep pockets:

Lexus is able to make so many new cars so quickly because it's a part of Toyota.Toyota market value is $255bn according to the Wallstreet journal.

In 2003,Toyota assigned 2000 of it's 13000 designers and engineers to Lexus,and we're already seeing the results.European sales alone could almost quadruple to 100,000 cars a year by 2010.

3)Secret of Toyota's Success:

Lexus became the US's most popular luxury brand by making bulletproof cars.In 2005,the JD power vehicle dependability/reliability survey crowned Lexus as the car maker with the least faults for the 11th year running.MB was in 27th place
(MR BEN).

Lexus quizzes every new owner to check they r happy with their dealer.
According to Lexus spokesman:"Having 80% of satisfied coustomers might be okay for some brands,but we want to be in high 90s"
Today lexus has the best dealers and most Satisfied Coustomers ever.

4)Performance hybrids:(Read very important)

Lexus is on course to sew up the luxury hybrid market,while BMW and MB play ctach-up.
Lexus hybrids'are all about pure driving excitement,instant acceleration,the fell of g forces'says GS450h chief engineer SHIGETOSHI MIYOSHI.FUEL CONSERVATION IS A SECONDARY BENIFIT.

LS600h will be the first V8 petrol electric hybrid and will do 0-100 in 5 seconds.It's more than 2 years ahead of Germans planned hybrids,Meanwhile lexus is increasing product of the RX400h to reduce waiting lists.


Lexus----an overall Winner
Insiders says in 6-9 years lexus will cross all Luxury brands and will become the Highest selling Luxury brand in the world.


JUGNU----->THE CARMAN

I don't understand why you guys are arguing with the thing that doesn't exist. A car is a car. It cannot be better than what a car should be. Lexus is for lexus fans. Mercerdes is for mercedes fans.

That is how it should be. Now stop arguing!!

When I am wealthy enough, I will probably buy 1 of each for three different feelings or moods. Although, I think I will wait until BMW finds their style again!

As soon as you figure out that a patent is not an invention then you will see how pointless your argument is.

Are you trying to prove to me that Ford is 2 times more innovative than Toyota?

The previous S class had somewhere around 350 patents. It did not have 350 inventions.

Why do you think Ford is on top of that list? Because they produced the most cars. Patents come with each different model.

Wake up!!

I'm still waiting for you to find one invention from Toyota that every car is using today. Something that we are all familiar with.

I don't really care that Toyota never invented anything, but I hate when people come here and start posting crap about how Toyota is the best thing that ever happened to the auto industry.

My point was that even thought my friends BMW leaves him stranded by the side of the road about three times a year, he is still totally loyal to the brand. Gee, you girls must be a lot better informed than Consumer Reports. They rated the M45 and the Lexus the most reliable in the industry and Mercedes and BMW both in the lower third. You girls really need to straighten those poor ignorant souls out a little bit. One more thing. I am the third generation in my family to have a net worth in excess of 100 Million. I can drive any car on earth. I spend a lot of the winter every year at my home in the south of France and there I drive a 1997 Corniche that was given to me by my mother. In reality, it is a total piece of crap in terms of performance and being fun to drive. BMW and Mercedes are good cars and I have driven both in all the top model ranges. I like having something everyone on earth doesn't have that is still sensible. I long ago passed the point of having something to prove by what I drove. But spare me your utter ignorance regarding what the rich do and don't do and what they drive and don't drive, you don't have a clue.

I grew up knowing a very, very, very rich family in Canada involved in agriculture, oil & gas, investments, property management, technology, etc. They are more wealthy than most of you could ever imagine. With a little knowledge of what I am talking about, you all probably know who they are or have heard of them. However, the father of the guy I was friends with - very, very, very old money (5th Generation) - was not the most flashy person you had ever seen; he drove an Oldsmobile Aurora; his wife drove an Oldsmobile Sillhouette. I can most definitely agree with Osprey when he says "you guys have no clue."

You should introduce your friend to the Lemon Law. I've never heard of a BMW getting stranded once every 4 months.

You're worth 100 million and you read consumer magazines? Get some help buddy.

Consumer magazines are written for people that don't know jack about cars. The only people that I can imagine actually taking anything written in consumer magazines seriously and base their purchase decisions on it are WOMEN.

I know an Indian guy that owns 5 hotels and multiple other businesses and drives a 80s Mitsubishi van with a broken AC. I've seen so many clothes in his car I think the guy sleeps in it. What's your point?

There will always be the odd apple, but for the most part the really wealthy do not drive Lexus', I mean Toyotas.

Next time you want to compare MB and Lexus maybe you should open your eyes instead of reading WOMEN magazines.

1. 80% of MBs sold in the US since the 50s are still being driven.

2. Guinness world record for most miles is held by a MB Taxi @ 2.8 MILLION MILES. The previous record was at 1.4 for a Volvo and before that was another MB at 1 million, which means nothing from Japan has ever gone over the 1 million mark.

3. MB's E class is offered in 16 variants worldwide. That is more than the whole Lexus brand.

MB offers 3-5 times more cars and engines than Lexus and you are complaining about 1-2 extra visits to the service department. GET REAL.

On top of that they are doing the most when it comes to new innovations. They don't sit in the back seat waiting to reverse engineers other people’s ideas.

as always. the Toyota/Lexus/Scion machine has divided cyberspace into the Japanese vs the Germans. everytime i come to a ToyoLexScion blog i read about 25% then skip the rest.

Question: How come the M5 Review blog only has two posts and the 760iL six? Why are all the Germans wasting their time bashing the Japanese instead of hailing Germany?

things that make you go "hmmmmm"

anyways. based on the pics (and reliability history), i'd take a LS460 over the S550 anyday. the S550 (in those pics) from the front looks like a late 90's Honda Civic with MB lights and grill. and the back...

well...

just phuqin ugly. sorry.

i did see one in black in person though. it was nice but nothing spectacular.

Stop twisting things. The Greek taxi driver was used as a sample of what a German car is capable of, 2.8 MILLION MILLION MILLION MILES. Double the previous record of the Volvo at 1.4 million and probably 4-5 times more mileage than anything from the Toyota camp.

"What does more engine selection have to do with # of trips to the garage for service?"

Maybe we should simplify this for you.

Lets say a certain manufacturer makes 3 cars and 3 engines and another makes 9 cars and 27 engines. Who do you think will have more issues?
A 2 year old would know the answer to that.

ONE MORE TIME, THE MERCEDES E CLASS IS OFFERED IN 16 VARIANTS WORLDWIDE, WHICH IS MORE THAN THE ENTIRE LEXUS BRAND.

80% of MB sold since the late 50s does not mean they are all classics that are driven to car shows. We are talking about cars sold in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc.

I put 300k miles on my 88 300CE without any problems and sold it in immaculate condition. It didn't even have any cracks in the leather.

Lexus is only 16 years young. If their cars were so reliable they should have all of their cars on the road minus the ones lost in accidents.

You should stop trying to discredit Mr. Benz and Mr. Daimler because we all knew that steam carriages existed. The whole point is that today’s cars are based on Mr. Benz’s creation. Last time I checked our cars were not powered by steam. Before steam there were horse carriages, so what? We can keep going back until we find out who invented the wheel and give him all the credit.

Maybe you should look at the link you provided. Do you see the big yellow question and answer on top of the page or are you blind?

The link shows some extra history of the automobile a then you come here and try to discredit the father’s of the modern automobile. What are you trying to accomplish? The founder of Toyota was still in his pampers when Mr. Benz invented the car and Mr. Daimler invented the motorcycle.

Nice try with the ML, but the first generation of MLs were known for causing a lot of problems for MB and they are made in the US. Are you expecting a brand new plant to start making flawless cars? Last time I checked Lexus doesn’t assemble any cars in OUR COUNTRY!!!!

Gems and lemons? When you have 4 out of 5 cars sold in the US since the late 50s that are still on the road today, I wouldn’t really call that a fluke my friend.

Your Guinness link needs an update. The Volvo broke the record in March 04 and this guy donated his car to the Daimler museum in July 04.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/classics.cfm?classicid=5040929.001&mercedes=1.html/country/gcf

Check out the pictures. The car with 4.6 million km is in better condition than most 10 year old Toylexs'

Unlike your RX that was brought over from Japan the ML was brand new when they opened the plant. On top of that the RX is built on the Camry platform. It's basically a raised Camry.

It seems like you are not very familiar with the auto industry. It's a FACT that US Toyotas have more issues that the Toyotas from Japan.

C class has a lot of problems. Really? I've never heard of it. Maybe the first year production, like every other car. My sister in law drives a first year C class, so I'm pretty familiar with it. She has 90k miles and no problems.

You would have to be blind not to see that the Japanese "copy and paste."

You like their cars that's fine, but don't come here preaching lies. Everybody knows they copy. If you think they have their own ideas I challenge you to name them. What are these inventions from the great Toyota and Honda?

I dare you to name just one. How hard can that be?
Just one invention that every car uses today.

I can name 10-15 from MB without even thinking about it. Inventions you should be thankful for every time you get into your car.

Personally, I think there is a place for all of the manufacturers. I recently helped my mother (no I'm not 16) look for and purchase a new car. The choices came down to the BMW 3 series, Mercedes C280 AWD and the Lexus IS250 AWD (we live in the snow belt).

I've owned 5 BMW's (the last being a 1999 540ia - which was the best of the bunch), so I was partial to BMW. My mother was partial to the Mercedes. To everyone's surprise, she bought the Lexus.

Why? I'll tell you:

The BMW had some wierd ways of doing things - starting with the way the turn signals operate (talk about reinventing the wheel for something that already works just fine), the car tramlined (even with the standard wheel set) making driving a job that requires constant attention to and adjustment of the steering wheel to keep the car in it's lane (yes , we drove more than one). Last, but not least, many owners I know have had to make constant trips back to the service department to correct things the dealer just scratches his had about. Over the years, I have always found this to be the case about BMW. They introduce the car and do the balance of the R&D while cars are in customers hands. Year 3 of a model run is a good time to buy a BMW (witness the latest 7 series, iDrive and other electrical problems);

Mercedes: For a manufacturer who once ruled the prestige and luxury car market (knocking the once mighty Cadillac of it's perch), it has fallen a long way in quality and customer service. The current C class is outdated and the interior has been cheapened to the point where one can hardly say it stands above other premium brands and fails the comparison against others. The worst, of course is customer service. The one dealer in our city can't fix them (and contrary to those who bow down the the great Mercedes Benz, they do break) and often admit it - leaving the customer to live with problems.

Lexus: Fresh styling, sporty drive (not quite as edgy as the 3 series, but heads above the Mercedes), great interior fit and finish and a promise of customer service beyond our expectation (which has proven to be true) were the main reasons. The car has been exceptional and the dealer picks it up and drops it off if it needs service (and is happy to hand wash it if my mother drops by with a question about how "this or that" works.

My point? In day to day life with a car, what is i,portant is how well it serves your needs. Personally I think Mercedes is in trouble. I don't care for the styling (a personal choice - to each his own) and wouldn't spend $100,000 on a car in it's introduction year given all of the QC problems Mercedes Benz has been experiencing of late (just check with Edmunds or others). I find the styling of the new Lexus LS a bit boring, but less gaudy and confusing than the S class. I'm sure it will be a rock solid performer, with fewer problems - which is how Lexus has gained the market share it has (both with Lexus and Toyota).

My money these days would hav to be on the current 7 series. I've gotten used to the styling (now that others have followed suit) and friends that drive them say they are now relatively trouble free.

Ahh ... the middle of the model cycle.

As for patent filings - what do they really mean? A 15 year old can have a patent registered. It doesn't mean that it is useful or grondbreaking - just that no one has registered the idea before.

Thanks for proving my point. Lexus is for women that need to get from A to B. A true auto enthusiast would never buy a sofa with wheels.

Just the fact that you would let some 18 year old punk drive and wash your car speaks volumes about Lexus products and owners.

You know Ben, you make some of the most incredible statements and expect to be taken seriously. The wealthy don't read Consumer Magazines? What planet are you from anyway? How do you think people become wealthy other than inheritence? They become wealthy by making wise decisions in where they place their money. The wealthy know where to get information on just about everything and they are smart enough as a general rule to turn to those who specialize in various fields for information. They do what they do well and they rely on others who do well in their areas. They don't try and be a know it all, as it is very dangerous. You are not a wealthy man Ben, and you never will be. No one who is as radical as you are has the mental flexability and the mental discipline required to see the entire picture from every possible position, understanding and appreciating other relevant points of view. No fortune has ever been MADE without that characteristic. Your radicalness dooms you to the same treadmill forever.

I beg to differ. The rich do not get rich by reading consumer magazines.

I can just imagine Leno, Trump, Seinfeld, etc picking up some stupid consumer magazine and actually purchasing a car according to some results.
Why don't you go out and purchase a Hyundai Azera? It just beat the LS430 in satisfaction surveys.

Do you have any other comments? How about the fact that JD surveys show nothing about the severity of problems? Was it a burnt light bulb or a slipping transmission?
Was it in the shop for a few hours or for 10 days?

How about the fact that MB offers 3 times as many models and 4 times as many engines worldwide compared to Lexus?

How about the fact that TOYLEX has ZERO inventions used in every car today?

You come here and start bashing me and then claim you are worth $100 million. Yeah right, if you were worth that much you wouldn't be wasting your time on blogs and you sure wouldn't be bragging about a Toylex.

An informative post of nothing on the patent numbers. I'll give you an example everyone has a patent number on AWD system of some sort. A patent number equates to an idea, not a ground breaking innovation. While impressive, it may point more to the prolificness of a marketing department not true innovation.

Hmm lets see what they invented:
6,899,374 Multiple door coupe
Damn! Lexus thought to add doors to a coupe first!

7,044,545 Vehicle seat
Where did we sit before?

D490,019 Automobile
OOps I thought MB predated that one

D499,951 Door handle and housing for an automobile

Door handles too!

How about a little more facts than fluff guys...

Nice try, but you will need to do more research.

Variable valve timing has existed since the 70s. The only difference is that other manufacturers don't need to stick crappy vvti emblems all over the car to sell it and to make it look like they are the ones that invented it.

HID headlamps? You are kidding right?

Open up you headlamp and let us know who makes the parts. I believe Lexus uses OSRAM. They can't even make a light bulb without the Germans.

These are specific innovations and only and handful of many:

Safety cage construction with front and rear crumple zones: Possibly the most important innovation in automobile construction from a safety standpoint, this is now used in nearly all cars and trucks. It was was first developed by Mercedes-Benz in 1951. A reinforced structure surrounds the passenger cabin, and the structure of the front and rear parts of the car is designed to deform in a controlled way to lessen impact forces transmitted to that central structure and further protect occupants.

Anti-lock brakes were first used in Mercedes-Benz cars in 1978. They have been standard equipment on all Mercedes-Benz cars since model year 1989. The acronym ``ABS'', coined in 1972, did not originally stand for ``Anti-lock Braking System'' as one might expect, but ``Anti-Blocking System.''

Traction control: Introduced in 1986 to reduce wheelslip in wet or icy conditions.

The first air bags offered in the North American market were in Mercedes-Benzes in 1988.

Stability control: The Electronic Stability Program - ESP - in which electronic controls for the engine, traction control system, and ABS system, augmented by sensors for fore-and-aft and lateral acceleration and deceleration all communicate in order to determine if the car is entering an out-of-control state, and decrease engine power and direct braking force on specific brakes to regain control was a Mercedes-Benz innovation in 1995. Other manufacturers have developed similar systems, but if it says ``ESP'' and is not on a Mercedes, it's licensed from Mercedes.

Brake Assist: Now used by many other manufacturers, this uses sensors in the brake system to determine if the driver intends to stop quickly, and, if that is the situation and the brake pedal is not being pressed hard enough for maximum effect, boosts braking force. The ABS system prevents wheel lockup. It was first used by Mercedes-Benz in the 1997 model year.

Notice how more and more cars have auxiliary turn signals in their outside rear-view mirrors. First used by Mercedes-Benz a few years ago. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

You want to talk about disrespect.

Ever seen the Lexus commercials with a bunch of German engineers taking apart the RX in total awe.

Can you imagine MB or BMW making the same commercial with a bunch of Japanese engineers taking apart their cars?

It shows total disrespect and ZERO CLASS.

I will never have any respect for TOYLEX.

So what if the current RX was never built in Japan? It doesn’t change the fact that it is built on a proven Camry chassis. The New ML is light years ahead of the old ML when it comes to reliability.

3 or 4 engines with displacement changes? Maybe you should go a design engines since you make it sound so simple. Every engine and every model will have their own unique issues. You can have same engines in two different models with completely different issues. For example a V8 in a C class will have a lot more problems with heat than the same engine in the S class.
You sound like JT. The other day he was trying to convince me that a CLK coupe and a CLK convertible are the same cars. Little does he know that a convertible has a completely different chassis. The convertible has a potential to have so many problems with so many moving parts compared to the coupe that will have ZERO issues with the roof.

Let's just look at the engines they offered in the US from 2000-2007

220, 230, 230k, 240, 280, 320, 320 CDI, 32, 350(3v), 350(4v) 430, 43, 450, 500, 550, 55, 55k, 600, 600TT, 65TT,

Keep in mind this is just the US. They offer so many more gas and diesel cars worldwide.

You should do some research on variable valve timing and you will find out that it didn't not come from Japan. Just because Honda plastered Vtec and Toyota VVTi all over their cars doesn't mean they invented it.

The first working engine with variable valve timing was in a Fiat back in the 70s.

Patent: nice to know, but if it never made it on the road then what was the point? The world is full of patents a majority of them are just ideas period, of no real use at this time. So kill the patent list.

Invention: something totally new, you actually did something. Some have merit, some do not. EXAMPLE: Everyone has an innovative cruise control, all work a little different hence a unique innovation, but there was only one original invention, the rest are adaptations.

Concentrate on who brought what to MARKET first, not the adaptation, that it is really all that matters if you think about it. This is where true innovation really is.

So what has Lexus/Toyota brought to market FIRST... I believe therein you will find the truth. I scan the net and I see a void in Lexus?Toyota, In most any german brands I find a wealth.

By admission the bulk of Toyota's innovations have been manufacture oriented, focusing on improvement of the manufacture process and automation. Yes that makes a reliable product to the .003 percentile. They have proven that and deserve Kudos.

However the focus on that alone, produces a car devoid of personality. When Hyundai's look as good as a Lexus and becomes as reliable (already there guys), then you have an issue as to why the Lexus cost so much.

Now, perfomance and personality will make a difference. This is were the Germans have their strong suit. Listen and read and you hear superlatives such as "surgically precise", "razor sharp", and "refined" uttered by the enthusiast and the press. Time after time the press compliment Lexus but also say they lack the personality of other makes. (A key issue to me.)

Does the press ever say "This model is in the shop 2 less times over the course of three years less than another."? ....Nope..... I understand the reliability factor, but really if the car is under warranty, and I get a loaner, I could care less. The probability of being stranded on the side of the road in any of the cars discussed is remote at best. So in essence the relaibility factor is way overblown. Toss JD Powers out till you get severity levels. No right minded engineer would take those values to heart without the facts.

With that in mind, give me personality and you can have "mainstream middle market". I prefer to drive not commute.

It takes a lot more than small tweaks to make a rigid convertible chassis. Just look at a 90-92 Mustang convertible for example. My friend had one and after a few years he couldn't even open the doors.


You explained it to me. I just gave up on you. The difference is that you are the only person that believes in your math.

Just to refresh your memory:

139 PROBLEMS divided by 1095 DAYS = 12% CHANCE FOR A LEXUS TO BRAKE DOWN IN 3 YEARS.... this is the funniest thing I ever heard in my life.

That makes ZERO sense and on top of that you don't even know how to divide two numbers. How are we supposed to take you seriously? Stay away from numbers my friend.

You are completely lost. Do you think JD can guarantee their results? You think they can guarantee that your particular Lexus will be reliable? If Lexus was so reliable why even offer a warranty?
For Christ sake you guys make it sound like Lexus never needs servicing and MB and BMW are being towed around on tow trucks.

Now you want to compare a short wheelbase to long wheelbase. How much do you want to bet that the CLK convertible and CLK coupe do not share 90% of their parts?

According to your logic of engine chassis, tranny, seats, etc. then the Camry, ES, and RX are all the same car. I won’t argue with the ES and Camry. It is the same car.

BTW, you can't put "every" and "average" together just for your convenience. The statement should be: According to JD the average MB out of 10 tested had 2.83 problems in 3 years.
Some might have 10, some 8, some 5, some 3 some 1, and some ZERO.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that?
A 2 year old knows it makes a lot more sense than your 139 PROBLEMS divided by 1095 DAYS = 12% CHANCE FOR A LEXUS TO BRAKE DOWN IN 3 YEARS.

Above should read "out of 100 tested"

You can read about the history of variable valve timing here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

Some of the stuff was invented some was pioneered, but there is no doubt about who contributed the most, especially in the safety department.
Mr. Benz didn't invent the 4 stroke engine. This was the work of Mr. Otto, another brilliant German.

Engines are not MB's problem. They build the best engines in the world. The proof is 4.6 Million kilometers.

The majority of MB problems are electrical gremlins. When you consider how complex they are and how many more models and engines they offer plus the safety, plus the history, plus the prestige, I have no problem with visiting the service department 1 or 2 times more than Lexus (every 3 years).

Until Lexus actually starts building the RX in the US let's not compare it to the X5 and ML.

BTW, when I drive my E class I don't have to worry about somebody pulling next to me with basically the same car that cost half as much (Camry vs. ES)
or that my car is assembled next to the Toyota Echo.

Really? You're very misinformed. MB parts might find their way into Chrysler products, but never the other way around.

There is a reason why the X5 and ML were the most troublesome for BMW and MB. Lexus doesn't build anything in this country, so no matter what you buy from them all the profits and jobs go back to Japan.

Let's not get into politics because you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

You misunderstood me with the E. I meant that I don't have to worry about my cheap "twin" pulling next to me. Like a Camry pulling up to an ES.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I don't think my country sucks, but I do appreciate products from the World's greatest engineers.

BTW, the Yaris and Echo are assembled right next to your Lexus.

Read Plano_A4's post above if you are interested in just a few things MB invented and pioneered. Ever heard of crumple zones? They keep you and your family safe everytime you drive around in your Lexus or any other car.

named invention of the year I think by Popular Mechanics or Popular Science. Also, adaptive front headlight system.

"The new Lexus IS250 is the first production car to come with a dual chamber passenger airbag.

The IS's airbag has a two vertical sections, leaving a dip between the two halves that cradles an occupant's head in the event of an accident.

Lexus says this system is more effective as it spreads the forces of an accident more evenly across an occupant's head, shoulders and upper body.

The Lexus IS250 is also the first car in its class to come with twin passenger knee airbags.


Source : http://www.topgear.com (11/8/2005)"



"AFSiAdaptive Front-lighting Systemjis a headlamp orientation control system that takes into account both steering angle and vehicle speed to orient the headlamps to an angle that provides better nighttime visibility. This is the worldfs first system of its type.

AFS provides a wider range of visibility during cornering, the illumination of gaze point of up to 300% of that offered by conventional fixed headlights, with visible distance increased by some 35%. From the driverfs viewpoint, vision is improved at all vehicle speeds by the automatic lamp orientation which is determined by both steering angle and vehicle speed."

http://www.denso.co.jp/motorshow/2003/en/booth/pdf/pdf13_e.pdf

For all of the German Fanboy WANKERS out there: For crying out loud, these companies couldn't care less whether you lived or died and you spend YOUR lives defending them by way of bashing the competitors in these blogs. What a crying shame. Such a waste of time. Also, if you love your cars and the way they drive so much, why don't you hop your lazy ass off of this computer and go for a drive. Is your car in the shop? Or, do you like the idea of being part of some sort of exclusive society more-so than actually driving?

Good job you found one "improvement" from Lexus. They reshaped the airbag to fit your face better.

Everything else existed way before Lexus started claiming for their own.


JT,
Please read everything before posting your crap. Did you notice the 10 was a typo and I corrected it in the next post.

FYI, these types of surveys are always based on averages. Do you think JD can survey 100 different cars and get 139 problems again?

What school did you attend? Did they ever teach you that you can't divide two variables?

You are dividing CAR PROBLEMS with DAYS. What the hell do car problems have in common with days and years? WAKE UP JT!!!!!

You are obviously biased.
Just go and google and find out about what selective perception is?

JT and Crew ignore this person, let him huff and puff until his brain blows with jealousy and insecurity.
Please do not entertain him anymore, his arguments are flawed and he repeats the same things in every blog, he has just become boring!

NB:JT & CREW.
WHEN YOU ARGUE WITH A FOOL PEOPLE MIGHT NOT NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE.

HE THINKS HE IS CLEVER!

The truth hurts doesn't it? Enjoy you toilets.

"I'm worth $100 million and I have nothing better to do than to brag about my toilet."

If you had you $100 million you would be on your yacht right now and driving a Bugatti. But instead you hang around blogs and promote Toyota products. At which Toyota dealership do you wash cars again?

You make me laugh.

JT, get a life you will obviously argue till you die even though you know you are completely wrong. Anybody in the JT crew want to back up 139 PROBLEMS / 1095 DAY = 12% chance for a Lexus to have a problem. That is the stupidest thing I ever heard in my life. 12%? Maybe you're a psychic JT?

I think Sylvan has a remedial math tutoring class for you. You seem to have a issue grasping the concepts at hand.

JD Powers figures, silly as they are, are all we have to go by, so we will again use them. No severity level indicates a bit of sensationalism, and because the paranoid for some reason think a defect is life threatening. I guess fear sells too.

3 year time period of the survey or 1095 days (365*3=1095) Got that?

139 problems per 100 cars or 1.39 problems per car on average. (Lexus)
283 problems per 100 cars or 2.83 problems per car on average. (MB)

ASSUME THE WORST! And each defect equals the same number of days out of service for the vehicle.
(IE 5 defects = 5 days out of service.)

Lexus = 1095–1.39 days out of service or the vehicle is without issues 1093.61 days
(1095-1.39)/1095=.99873 or 99.873% of the time there are no issues.

MB = 1095-2.83 days out of service or the vehicle is without issues 1092.17 days
(1095-2.83)/1095=.99.742 or 99.742% of the time there are no issues.

Now JT states incorrectly that the avg. MB is in the shop 1.44 times more often by these figures so thus it is twice as unreliable. Correct ONLY IF there is more than one defect, and they were caught at different times. Reality indicates you typically wait a bit and not drop everything on a very minor issue (like a cup holder not retracting) and if another comes up the car goes in the shop then. (to procrastinate his human)

If a the car goes in for a truly minor issue immediately, you probably have too much time on your hands or have no clue about anything mechanical. (Oh my! The glove box light is out, I need to take it in to the dealer before more thing go wrong). So, in this case the visits to the dealer are the same.

Anyway you cut it 99.873% and 99.742% reliability are both great figures.

But wait what is the error rate of the survey?

Well JD Powers won’t release that for some reason. Again not enough information to truly be accurate.

Even if the MB has 1.44 extra issues that to me is not an issue. Typically in that time frame I would have to bring in any car for scheduled service to maintain the warranty, so it get done then. Again what is the real issue? The fact is you have a figure with no basis that shows a perceived difference. To me the proven superior crashworthiness in the MB is far more important than the JD Powers gibberish.

JD Powers needs to explain severity levels IE broken cup holder vs. a transmission failure. And also explain the margin of error. There is no creditability without either.

Get real and look and look at the facts.

Anyone can make a survey and ask specific questions and show what they want. The fact is even JD Powers admit they have to revamp and they have started to change. The new IQS is out on the 7th and it asks more questions and starts to make an attempt at severity levels. (About time) Will it be perfect? Heck no, but better than what it is now. It is a stab to show more substantial differences between the makes. Reliability factor according to them is not as big of an issue as it used to be. (I know you guys know better).

Right now a major, failure is the same as a sticky cup holder. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that this is flawed. Besides the Hyundai is poised to knock off the Lexi logo so be prepared to crawl to the corner and lick your wounds, it will happen.

All scientific studies have guidelines, boundries and a margin error. However this is a marketing survey so toss that out.

Remember JD Powers is a for profit entity, and if they can not report something substantial, then no one will buy their data. In the IQS JD Powers also considers it a defect when a cup holder in not the right spot for the owner. It would not be a stretch to think that flows over to the VDS to. They do not comment on that.

So what is a "defect" to JD Powers? Only they know.

I would rather worry about safety and other issues rather than trivialities in a market survey. Want facts? Go here and explain why Audi and MB beat the similar Lexus in the crash results.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=10

They win primarily due to engineering... hmm novel concept. I guess I would rather live another day after a major crash than save a few bucks and vist the dealer bit less often.

I wonder if JD Powers will have a new survey with a column under days spent in hospital after a crash. I wonder how that would stack up?

Fuel for the fire.

The point is you can take whatever data you want and skew it.

Right now JD Powers is in your corner and the crash tests are in the German corner. Both will tout the virtues.

Both place a great argument to who is better. The fact is they probably both are, damn near equal depending on the owner. To mindlessly slam another make without basis is stupid. To quote facts and take them out of context it stupid. So all I care to bring to point, is that you interpret them as you can, and make your choices.

Right now if you glance at it, Lexus is top rung in reliability but has a lower survivability rating.

That made my choice right there, if I were to split hairs (which is what we are doing here). I choose to error on the side of safety, no matter how marginal it is.

If I owned a BMW, or MB which I do not. I just looks at only the facts and not get petty "with mine is better than yours".

On the safety end, why did nobody on the German side that is so safety-conscious compliment Lexus' innovation in the dual airbag department

Hey that might be a Lexus thing only, I don't have a MB, but they have a double layer bag in use since 2005 models.

But over all it is all about how the crash dummy is affected, not the whiz bang behind the bag. If a benefit is not seen it may not be deployed.

Damn found this after the post button.

State-of-the-art Mercedes-Benz passenger cars like the new S-Class are equipped with a total of eight airbags: two adaptive front airbags, four sidebags and two windowbags. As well as being able to test itself, the airbag technology is maintenance-free and remains functional for the entire lifetime of the Mercedes Benz passenger car.

In addition, the PRE-SAFE® anticipatory occupant protection system – unveiled by Mercedes-Benz in 2002 and still not available in this form from any other car manufacturer – further enhances the protective effect of the seat belt and the airbag. Advance tensioning of the front seat belts and repositioning of the seats ahead of a potential accident prepares the occupants for a possible collision, meaning that the seat belts and airbags offer the highest possible level of protection when activated.


As of October last year that was current.

"Airbags have been a leading safety feature of every Lexus model launched since the original LS400 made its debut in 1989. Technology, engineering and design have been constantly refined since then to deliver ever more efficient and effective operation, with the new Lexus IS 250 making the latest major advance in occupant protection with the world’s first dual-chamber passenger airbag.

Unlike conventional airbags, which inflate in a single unit, the new dual-chamber version has twin vertical sections, creating a central depression that effectively cradles the face while dispersing the physical impact of the inflated bag across other parts of the head, shoulders and upper body.


The airbag is based on the Lexus Omni-Support concept and presents less risk of injury to the front seat passenger, without compromising the level of protection against primary impact forces.

Not only are all versions of the new Lexus IS 250 equipped with the dual-chamber passenger airbag, they are also the first premium D segment models to feature driver and front passenger knee airbags. Further protection is provided by seat-mounted Thorax-Abdomen-Pelvis (TAP) side airbags, with greater capacity to provide wider protection across the body.

Together with curtain shield airbags which run the length of each side of the vehicle cabin to protect both front and outer rear seat occupants, the IS carries a complement of eight airbags as standard on all models."

This was also awarded by Popular Science 'Popular Science Top Tech Innovations of 2005'.

And the Lexus IS has 10 airbags :)

From the Lexus USA Site:

Airbag
Driver's Front
Advanced (SRS) [9]
Driver's Side
Seat-Mounted (SRS) [9]
Driver's Side Curtain
Advanced (SRS) [9]
Driver's Knee
Knee (SRS) [9]
Front Passenger's Front
Advanced (SRS) [9]
Front Passenger's Front Side
Seat-Mounted (SRS) [9]
Front Passenger's Front Side Curtain
Advanced (SRS) [9]
Front Passenger's Front Twin-Chamber
Twin-Chamber (SRS) [9]
Front Passenger's Front Knee
Knee (SRS) [9]
Front Passenger's Rear Side Curtain
Advanced (SRS) [9]

Total of 10.

I know you spent the whole day looking for Toylex innovations and all you could find is a reshaped airbag.

However, you need to do more research before bragging about the number of air bags in the IS.
8 bags were used in the old S. I think the new S has 16.

BTW, the 2005 SLK had knee bags. Leave it to Lexus to brag about something that has been on the market for 2-3 years.

You are better off changing the subject because MB will wipe the floor with Lexus safety. Superior chassis, more bags, dual stage bags, Presafe, Neck pro, etc.

Lexus still has trouble building a safe chassis, so it doesn't really mater how many bags they can stuff in there. Bags will not help you in a rear end collision.
The new GS and 2006 LS scored a MARGINAL in the rear end collision test.

For all I know we are in cyberspace and whether you are worth a $100 million dollars or not I do not care.

I do not know you and you dont know me for all I know you could be lying there is no way i can verify your economic status.

Stop boasting you insecure thing!

My friend who lives up my street has 9 diamond mines two copper and a coal mine in Africa plus Charter service , he owns 4 gulfstream jets.
He drives a full spec Land Cruiser VX and a Jaguar
XJ and he is very wealthy, who the hell do you think you are on the face of this planet.

Bill Gates Drives a lexus you MORON and so do many rich people, dont come with that Crap that you just wrote , there is no way i can verify you status. This is cyberspace

Now go crawl back into that dark little corner you have been hiding all this time and be a good boy!
And for you information I drive a modest ML500 and
A BMW 320D Which is Crap (been to the dealer 4 times in 28000 KM)!! I am trading it in for either a Lexus IS250 or an AUDI 20T FSI.

I dont boast about things which other people cannot even see, there are plenty of Wealthy people out there and you do not even feature in the top 3000.

FIND SOMETHING BETTER TO DO WITH YOU LIFE!

I have explained this before but I will repeat it S L O W L Y for you.

the survey ecompasses 1095 days and the 139 is per 100 cars.

Quote from JD Powers 2005 VDS "The industry average improves 32 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100) compared to 2004."

139/100 = 1.39/1 simple 3rd grade math. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Now agian you failed to see the ASSUME factor in the days out of service.

So lets take it this way if you don't want to accept assumptions or draw you own conclusions.

(The following is mearly an example or the possiblities of the JD Powers VDS survey. The names have not benn changed to protect the innocent, because we don't have to)

I will say the MB had 2.83 issues and they were 1. A cup holder sticking
2. A small rattle under the dash
3. And the .83 can be a bad interior light bulb.

The Lexus had these following 1.39.
1. Engine threw a rod and had to be replaced.
2. the .39 will be the transmission is slipping due to a flakey ECU module.

Ok according to JD Powers VDS this is an entirely plausable scenario. Would this really happen? I would venture the truth is in the middle somewhere. However since we are such a polarized group, I don't think we will even come close to moving to the middle.

Ok, I have just some gasoline on the grill, I have my firesuit on and I just stuck a match. So let the fun begin.

My apologies I got you mixed up with our friend Osprey. He was claiming to be worth 100 million.

Can you name anybody else besides Bill Gates? You make it sound like the Lexus is his only car. I know for a fact that he owns a Porsche 959 (very rare) and a Mercedes SLR. He probably owns multiple other European cars. You read somewhere that he owns a Lexus and all of a sudden it's his favorite car. Lexus fans never seem to amaze me. It just shows how insecure you are in your little Toyotas. I can name 50 famous people that own MBs without even thinking about it. Can you even name 5 that own a Lexus?

You obviously don't know basic math.

Stop using EVERY and AVERAGE together. They don't go together.

According to JD the AVERAGE MB out of 100 tested had 2.83 problems during 3 years.

This is not the same as "EVERY MB will have 2.83 problems" or another bonehead quote from you "EVERY MB will have an average of 2.83 problems."

How do you come up with this stuff?

Stop skewing a simple quote just to cover up your FLAWED MATH:

"139 PROBLEMS divided by 1095 DAYS = 12% chance for a Lexus to have problems"

I took Ben's test and this is what I found

1. Britney Spears drives a SLR McLaren
2. Paris Hilton a Bentley Continental
3. Lindsay Lohan Mercedes SL65 AMG convertible
4. Tom Cruise has a Porsche 911
5. Rene Zelleweger has a 911 also
6. Madonna Maybach 57
7. Charlize Theron Land Rover Range Rover
8. Shaquille O'Neal: Rolls-Royce Phantom
9. Jerry Seinfeld has over 20 Porsches
10. Jay Leno has a fleet of European cars but no reference to any Toyoya or Lexus in his stable.
11.Kevin Costner a Land Rover
12.Sly Stallone a Land Rover
13.Bill Murray a Land Rover
14. Queen Elisabeth a Land Rover (she still drives it)
15. Demi Moore a Land Rover
16. Tom Cruise a Land Rover
17. Meg Ryan a Land Rover
18. Don Johnson a Land Rover
19. Mel Gibson a Land Rover
20. Jack Nicholson a Land Rover
21. Barry Manilow a Land Rover
22. Drew Barrymore's BMW M3 convertible
23. Ben Affleck's Aston Martin DB7
24. Brad Pitt's 2002 Mercedes-Benz G500
25. Justin Timberlake's Mercedes S600.
26. Ralph Lauren a Land Rover
27. Donald Trump a Maybach

Now the Flip side:
1. Cameron Diaz toyota Prius
2. Leonardo Di Caprio Toyota Prius (4 of em)
3. Julia Roberts Toyota Prius
4. Tyra Banks Lexus SC
5. Meryl Streep Toyota Prius

Funny of the non euro cars, the Prius is the most popular of the hits I went to.

Fashion statement or a tree hugger problem? It is an interesting concept to own a watch that cost 5 times more than your car.

CNK, JT find some more Celeb owners of Lexus, I am curious. BTW my list came from Forbes and Money Magazine.

If you had 300 balloons for 100 kids. How many per kid?

Talk about being slow.

Here are a few more celebrities off the top of my head:


1. Jessica Simpson SL500
2. Ashely Simpson G500 or 55
3. Jennifer Aniston G500
4. Courtney Cox CL600
5. Michael Jordan SL55
6. Keaunu Reeves CLK
7. Ben Affleck CL
8. Shaquille O'Neal CL600
9. Gwyneth Paltrow ML
10. Paris Hilton SLR
11. Hillary Duff CLK
12. Justin Timberlake S600
13. Drew Barrymore M3
14. Kanye West G500

15. Jeremy Clarkson (World's biggest auto critic)
S class / SLK

I could keep going, but you get the idea.

thinks that the new e90 3 Series is a total piece of garbage and gave the Lexus IS 350 the 2005 Car of the year award. Regardless of what he thinks and what new money thinks, my opinion stands apart from them so "independent" people shouldn't care. Funny... BMW preaches independent thinking and actions, however, they rely on a campaing that is designed to influence others' opinions.

Go back to school JT. You need serious help.

JT I still dont't get how you tabulate math.. I bet your check book is a wreck...

If ANY car had 139 problems over the first 3 years I would torch it.

The simple fact is that of the OWNERS SURVEYED, that out of every 100 cars there were 139 issues reported. So again 139 issues/100 cars = 13.9/10 or 1.39 per 1 car AVG or the 3 year time period.

I even cut and pasted an outside article that said this exact thing and you still don't believe it. You are indeed hopeless.

JT why do the German cars you despise, typically have better crash test scores the the technologically "superior" Lexus? Well Rather than a "survey" lets go to a scientific test with proper supervison and checks and balances and see what the results are.

2006 IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) ,tests show:

Luxury Cars the A6 beating the GS

E-Class and BMW 5 Sereis beat the LS430

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=10

***********************************

MidSized near Luxury the A4 and the IS300 tie, but the A4 is 4 year old design the IS is brand new.

BMW 3 series beats the ES330.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=15

********************

Luxury SUV

Volvo, BMW and Mecedes all beat all Lexus SUV's

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=50


Do you motice the trend. The Lexus vehicles lack the technology to rate higher than the Germans typically. Now that is technology, it is not all about reliability ratings.

I ranked them by direct competition. You may indeed have a LS430 out rank a Mini in the same test, but that is not apple to apples.

Luxury Car order when sorted only by class, the GS ranks well. The LS is at the rear of the pack where I would typically expect an Avalon.

Audi A6 2006 models
Lexus GS 2006 models
Infiniti M35/M45 2006 models
Volvo S80 2006 models
Lincoln LS 2006 models
BMW 5 series 2006 models
Mercedes E class 2006 models
Acura RL 2006 models
Infiniti Q45 2006 models
Lexus LS 430 2006 models
Lincoln Town Car 2006 models
Cadillac CTS 2006 models
Cadillac STS 2006 models
Cadillac DTS 2006 models

Mid Size Luxury (a 4 way Tie IS did not beat anyone), ES did not fair as good, like a Camry should)

Saab 9-3 2006 models (Tie)
Lexus IS 2006 models (Tie)
Audi A4 2006 models (Tie)
BMW 3 series 2006 models (Tie)
Acura TL 2006 models
Lexus ES 330 2006 models
Volvo S60 2006 models
Saab 9-5 2006 models
Mercedes C class 2006 models
Acura TSX 2006 models
Infiniti G35 2006 models
Jaguar X-Type 2006 models

Luxury SUV

RX and GX ranked in the lower portion as expected.

Volvo XC90 2006 models
Mercedes M class 2006 models
Infiniti FX 2006 models
BMW X5 2006 models
Acura MDX 2006 models
Lexus GX 470 2006 models
Lexus RX 2006 models
Cadillac SRX 2006 models

You looked at sort order but failed to look at the test results to note that(why didn't that suprise me).

Anyway, the who idea of the exercise to to show you that Lexus is not the all time leader of the pack. While they are good, they stand on no podium alone as the pinnacle of safety, there is no clear cut winner. Actually overall, all models avg they prob rank middle of the pack.

You do bring up a good point about the mainstream SUV's. But with Ford's dismal results latetly I bet they are all gun shy as this is a difficult test.

BTW again for the record I do not own a BMW or MB. I actually like the Lexus in general, however I not would consider any of them at this time. The only issue I really take too, is the fact that many of the Lexus fans are sold 100% and think they have bought the finest technology know to man. Simply not true. They refuse to see the whole picture (blinded by love). I also step in and discuss other makes as well, so I am not anti any brand.

Don't take my comments as personal they are not meant to be. We all have our preferences and Lexus is not there yet, but they are getting close.

This line should be:

You looked at sort order but failed to look at the test results to note that it was a 4 way tie.(why didn't that suprise me).

"We all have our preferences and Lexus is not there yet, but they are getting close."

Sorry, but I don't get it. Close to what, the Germans? Even the Germans didn't score perfectly. Take for example the C Class. Also, let it be known that there is a new ES 350 replacing the ES 330. Both the new C and ES would have scored significantly better.

"The only issue I really take too, is the fact that many of the Lexus fans are sold 100% and think they have bought the finest technology know to man. Simply not true. They refuse to see the whole picture (blinded by love)."

This is true of any brand. What, you think only some Lexus fans think their brand is the best and immune to failure? I can say, "Only German fans stereotype Lexus fans as being pretencious and say that Lexus fans think their cars are perfect in every way", just from my experience with you! I am a big fan of Lexus, but I make as much constructive criticism as the next guy (not German fanboy fanatics though.... NOT saying that all German car fans are fanatics; I am just addressing the fanatics as there are in any brand fanbase). You are not immune to being a stereotype...

I didn't initially preface the German’s as THE leader. JT assumed that a while back. (Maybe insecurity on his part). Just because I own German (and Japanese too) doesn't mean I own the best. I have never said that. JT has assumed that, but I have never stated it.

JT preface has always been the following. "Since it rates so high in the JD Powers survey, it is the undoubtedly the best." All the JD Powers survey really shows is that they have done an exceptional job of hitting a benchmark. This survey in no way is not 100% factual nor is it scientific in any manner.

If we are comparing reliability as the DEFACTO standard, then I will give you the award for now. The problem is, no one in the automotive arena considers it as important as JT. Even Consumer Reports rates the Lexus High but places "less reliable" cars on the best picks list year after year. Why? Because there is simply is more than one factor to judge.

Reliability (A Lexus benchmark)
Performance
Balance
Quality of materials used
Build quality
Design
Features
Safety

All of these come to mind. Is the Lexus supreme in all of these? No neither is MB or BMW. But, if I think of who has more of these together at one time, Lexus does not come to mind.

Actually, no car built in the US at this time does. Which is sad. The recent quality issues experienced at Toyota assembly plants are quite evident. They will be resolved, but history indicates that they will return and manifest themselves.

BTW: I have owned many Japanese cars and I can sum it them up in two words. Uneventful, and Uninspiring.

The main reason is the philosophy of building the lowest denominator brand first and then releasing the upscale based on it at a later date. It is fundamentally flawed at this level of a vehicle.

Actually, no car built in the US at this time does.

Should have been posted as:

Actually, no car built in the North America at this time does.

Yeah still drudging it out here, isn't it amazing?

Sales are not equal to the best of anything other than sales. Honda sells more civics so does that make it a better car? Nope.

High sales simply means you have found a balance between function and price point. Economics 101. Ford really discovered with the Model T, not the best, but simply a great balance of affordability and function. They hit a sweet spot.

Toyota sells more low end and mid camry's than top line ones. Does that mean they are better. No.

Please don't confuse sales with anything other than sales.

I know a LOT of people with German cars. I know a LOT of people with German cars. Friends' 7 Series, M, S-Class, TT, Jetta, on and on... all had more than one significant problems; all new. Steering pumps, cyclinders not firing, electronics, engine (Jetta)... Friends, family, and self with Japanese cars: Smooth sailing. I am not saying that German cars are all bad, but there are some models that seem to be forever plagued with problems, and others, like MOST 3 series models that don't have a lot of major issues.

Another thing. THat IS that was tested in the IIHS was a 2005! So much for your excuses. IT says that the 2006 models will be tested later in 2006. Why do you have so many excuses plano? I also like this quote by you,"RX and GX ranked in the lower portion as expected." Expected by who, German car fans that wank-off to pictures of BMW tailpipes? God man, get a grip!!! No, not that kind! Reality! Why do you expect the Lexus models to score more poorly? Hmm? God, I have had enough of this BS.

Last time I l;ooked a rear end crash was still a crash. And typically is would assume that a majority of front end crash are in the the rear of another car. To discount the rear end crash rating is a diservice.

In yur estimat i certainly hoped the GS would rate higher due to the fact it is a new model unlike the others tested. But the IS simply barely made the mark.

On the JD Powers, I can't explain it any better to you. So I guess we will have to "agree to disagree" and duke that out when it is appropriate. Still JD Powers is still just a "Survey" nothing scientific.

German vs Japanese

In my book both countries make outstanding vehicles. So to me it is not a German thing. But I think it is a great diservice to consider Lexus the pinnacle of anything other than reliablility. It simply is not true.