Strike Two? Toyota Tops NTHSA Recall List For Second Year In A Row

Can't see how people perceive that toyota makes quality cars based on the number of recalls. Especially considering when the majority of these recalls originated as cover ups!

Their prior success is now their Achilles heel.

In this case it is total number of vehicles that determines the rank. So 1 recall for a load capacity sticker may cover several hundred thousand vehicles.

Infiniti could have 6 for real issues that wouldn't total that.

Overall I don't believe they are that much superior or worse to anything else on the road.

They just had a reputation based on a myth that has caught up to them..

kpaxx says "[I] Can't see how people perceive that toyota makes quality cars based on the number of recalls."

A large number of people perceive BMW's and MB's cars as "quality" vehicles, even though they have not been noted for their lack of defects. "Quality" is to the buyer however the buyer defines it.

BlackDynamite - The myth was "problem free".

Even though a recall may not be a problem (ie: load capacity sticker) it is still a dealer visit to fix. Most of these are not simple in and out ordeals and require time out of the day to perform. The problem is that no one quantifies recalls as visits to the dealer (due to the complexity). It is far easier to calculate a smaller window of time with a tangible visit.

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I guess in a nut shell lets say you have two cars for three years:

The first one has 3 warranty issues that are all resolved with 3 visits. There are no recalls on this vehicle.

The second has zero warranty visits but was recalled 3 times for safety issues.

Which is worse?

The one underlying factor that gave toyota its reputation is that it used to sell simple cars (i.e cars with crank windows) and to build a simple car with good quality is easy. This is because lower complexity leads to a lower propensity to problems. This is what toyota built their reputation on; remember how simple the tercels and corollas used to be? However, now toyota builds highly complex cars which they do NOT know how to do well as a result their cars are not very good. In the end poor quality and increased engineering complexity leads to many safety recalls.

Compound this with parts and engineering/design sharing across models you end up with toyota being the Recall King of the decade....and a lot of sorry suckers.

Kpaxx- In a way are right. As soon as Toyota started tackling more complicated vehicles, started becoming more like everyone else as far as quality control goes.

Put it this way: For each added component or system, there will be an associated failure rate over time. These all individual failure rates add together so that with each level of complexity so the quality has to be higher overall to maintain the same overall failure rate. The number of failures overall determines overall reliability.

So a vehicle with 100,000 parts needs to have higher quality standards and a lower failure rate per component, to deliver the same reliability of a vehicle with 50,000 parts. Simpler design leads to better reliability overall if the quality standards remain the same.

The problem is the consumer wants both.

Actually Joe Limo or Cdoke could explain this a bit better than I could but you can see a basic equation to prove the point that complexity matters:

Simplified failure rate (?BR) of a braking system is determined similar to below:

?BR = (?AC + ?SP + ?FR + ?BE + ?SE + ?HO)

Where
?AC = Total failure rate for actuator, failures/million hours
?SP = Total failure rate for spring, failures/million hours
?FR = Total failure rate for brake friction materials, failures/million hours
?BE = Total failure rate for bearings, failures/million hours
?SE = Total failure rate for seals, failures/million hours
?HO = Total failure rate for brake housing

Totally see your point Agent009! The one thing that has to be considered here as well is that toyota as a whole builds simpler cars yet their real (not perceived) quality metrics are not any better then other manufacturers. Hence it could be argued that toyota quality is below average.

I think in the past they were indeed simpler. But as Toyota matured they quickly realized they need to pick and choose technology and place it in vehicles. This might have been the catalyst to thier downfall.

But you have to wonder why most Toyota models didn't have logic in place to prevent full brakes and full throttle until after the recent events. Even the most basic VW had that built in.

Yeah.....didn't VW have this in their cars in the 1990 and it is now 2010 and toyota needs to be forced to have logic in place to prevent full brakes and full throttle. I guess toyota is just ignoring safety as a requirement in their car design.

Sorry BlackDynamite, I did not proof read that one. I probable should have used "simple" or "more simple" not simpler. Please excuse my poor grammar.

If Toyota had adressed the problems when they arose (like other manufacturers)instead of telling owners there is nothing wrong with their cars(Driver error implied)this never would have happened.This is an accumulation of years of DENIAL.

Remember they weren't doing anything the others don't do to a degree. They just got caught doing it over and over again.

The reason why toyota had more recalls is becouse toyota issues recall when there are some problems while many other automakers aren't recalling cars despite serious reliability problems.

Proof:
"But Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz are among the worst automakers overall in terms of reliability..." according to Consumer Reports.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Reliability-Survey-Says-GM-Makes-HUGE-Strides-Asia-Dominates-Europeans-Floundering-58761/

The law applies to every manufacturer.Within 5 days they have to notify NHTSB.The others did.Toyota didnt so the penalties.

009, BD, Kpaxx, Fijian, Steve - this is the best exchange I have seen on Autospies. All of your comments are very insightful and "restrained". 009 your note about toyota's sheer volume will have a higher weight/implication on failure. BD your call on the use of "myth" is fair and reasonable. Kpaxx - the observation of the cars that built Toyota quality perception were simpler vs their recent cars are more complex and are more prone to errors are very logical in my mind (fair for both Toyota and also fair for the other car mfrs that have had more years making more complex cars). And Fijian - I agree with you Toyota has been hiding what they've known for a number of years, not owning up to their familiarity of the incidents, going after a whistle blower, and even possible destruction of evidence, do justify the penalty levied so far.

Yes this is the best dialogue exchange in months, very refreshing to see this. x10

With a significant amount of PR anything can shine with the ignorant people, Toyota reminds me of a very popular coffee shop, full of tasteless dumb people, and I am not talking about Starbucks, i like there coffee. It's a fact that Toyota has been loosing there reputation as quality.

surprise! toyota is just another car company. they make cars that start most every time and occasionally have issues. just another average car company.