What other number than 55 can scare a M3.......? How about 63?

What letters can scare BMW and already have? RS....

GermanNut....I hear what you are saying but, hears the problem. Audi had to drop a V8 in the RS to beat the M3. Which has an I6. So, while the RS is a great car Audi had to stack the Hp to beat the M3. Just like all the other manufactures who try and compete with those guys. But when the playing field is leveled. For example BMW 2008 V8 M3. Audi will not have a chance.

note: check the specs on the BMW CSL, which has an I6. It betters the RS by 0.1 sec in 0-60, now you tell me who is scared of the letter "M".

or you can look at it this way BMW3W. Mercedes-Benz just launched their 6.3L AMG engine and now a drop-top Mercedes-Benz CLK63AMG Cabriolet will probably beat the M3.

Sure, Audi needed to beat BMW and in order to do that they needed a V8. Now BMW needs a V8 to beat Audi...

It's like a merry-go-round. The cycle keeps going on between all 3 German competitors Audi, MB and BMW.

Pretty soon the 6.3 AMG engine will be obsolete as will the 500 horsepower V10 from BMW in the E60 M5. when compared to Audi's bi-turbo 550 horsepower RS6.

I like all those phonies who call Audi a rebadged Volkswagen. It may be a rebadged Volkswagen but its build quality is better than what you have, the interiors have been the benchmark (better than what you can offer) for the last 12 years and there hasn't been a single bad review written about an Audi interiors, they cost more than your competing models (Audi's RS6 vs. BMW M5 & MB E55, Audi RS4 vs. BMW M3 & MB C55) and they have the firepower to defeat both their respective BMW and MB counterparts in straight-line acceleration and even track performance.

The arguement that because Audi does not sell as many cars as BMW or MB it is not at their level is utter nonsense because Audi has not been around for long enough.

With their product assault which includes the following models: Audi RS4, S6, S8, RS6, Q5, Q7, A5 and R8 along with TTS or RS and S/RS3 along with S/RS5 I think Audi will more than compensate for this numbers game in sales don't you think??

11 additional models is a crazy number and having seen what Audi is capable of with the RS4, I would be awfully worried about the upcoming RS6, R8, TTRS, RS5 and RS3.

If each of the upcoming RS models has as many positive reviews and sales as this current RS4 and you combine that with Audi's benchmark interiors, benchmark build quality and two new SUV's you have yourselves the #1 premium brand in the world...move over BMW.

Sales are not indicative of quality. You should know that BMW supporters. Even if it were Audi is about to unleash a living hell for BMW and MB.

Just look at all the positive reviews of the new TT. Get the idea what is happening with all these reviews...THEY ARE ALL POSITIVE and the new A8 surely will not dissapoint in its interior or next generation styling either!

sales:quality

no way proportional

look how many people bought the previous escalade and that had an interior straight from the tahoe/suburban/yukon

and people bought all those a-classes even thought they were complete garbage. it was a cheap merc, and quality or roadtests don't sell cars, advertising and perceived brand kudos does. thats why even though road testers say they hate toyotas people buy them and when they say they love the latest big french car, nobody buys them.

and the new tt looks like it will be amazing, it might even replace the z4 on my "i want it" list

but this new merc won't be as dynamic to drive as an m3, amd will be $$$$$ more expensive.

Check the review: We have the new TT labeled as a Cayman Basher by this very website: Autospies.com

Rupert if you are thinking about replacing your Z4 with a TT wait for the TTRS with 350 horsepower!

Audi is not a re-badged VW. In fact it has more Itallian DNA if anything. You really can't go wrong with either of the big three (Audi, MB, or BMW). The TT is a great car with more Hp. But, I just take my eyes off the BMW Z4 coupe.

I think we have finally gotten rid of the stupid arguement by BMW supporters claiming that Audi is a cheap, non-premium, rebadged Volkswagen, slow car with a crappy interior and terrible ergonomics and is inferior because of sales.

How long has BMW been around? For that matter how long has Mercedes been around?

Look at how long Audi has been around and look at what they have done!

Volkswagen group is the art of design, performance, and corporate stardom in the automotive world. They do have say in what happens at Lamborghini, Porsche, Bentley, Volkswagen, Audi and OH MY GOD...BUGATTI!

ttrs.....yummers
the z4 coupe does stand out, but i think a bit too much. the tt looks more balanced, the z4 coupe looks like it wants to kill you, and if i wanted a murderous car, I'd buy that ASMA mercedes ml-gladiator disaster.
and with regards to bmw/audi sales, we musn't forget that bmw was on the verge of collapse in the 70s (i think) until it made the 2002 which saved it.
volkswagen is now a very powerful automotive group, in europe more so than america. it owns (or manages or controls, you know what i mean) vw, audi, lambo, bentley, bugatti, SEAT, skoda and porsche (to a degree) and (since audi comprises the auto union) has the rights to Horch, Wanderer and Dkw. Horch was a Maybach rival, maybe they'll rekindle it? think of what it's managed to do with skoda's reputation in the last 10 years, it comes second in many car surveys (second to lexus). there is at least one car in all vw brands that i want.

It still baffles me that Mercedes needs to build a 5.5ltr or 6.3ltr v8 engine to compete with the 3.2ltr naturally aspirated straight 6 of the M3. All this does is confirm the 3.2 ltr inline 6 in the M3 to be one of the best engines ever manufactured.

oh yeah that i6 is Amazing with a capital A. sounds fantastic, goes fantastic.

FYI - AUDI is a rebadged VW and is made in CHINA! If you ever go there there is Audi's everywhere. MB & BMW are made in germany (bar the bottom of the pile models manufactured in RSA) Also there are a lot of people out there saying the RS4 and RS6 etc etc cost more than their comparative models in the BMW and MB range! This is just funny! I have to ask have you ever been into a car dealership, Audi, BMW, MB? The Audi dealer can knock 10% off the RRP of the RS models easy as and do it everyday of the week. You wont see a MB or BMW dealer doing that to an M5 or an E55. RRP are subjective, how much one can purchase the car for is the real question here and i tell you that the Audi's are much cheaper.

bmwmpower, stop talking crap.
bmw z4 and x5 made in america, m-b ml, gl, r made in america. c class merc made in south africa.
and how is the car being cheaper a bad thing? and i think the chinese appreciate good engineering, good quality and good cars.

BMWMPower

Just because Audi has a much larger market share in China than BMW there is no need to cry. Most Audis are made in Germany. BTW, I have yet to see a single dealer discount the RS4, with some even adding as much as 10k to the price, and the car still selling.

So let me pose a question to all the BMW fans (or anti-fans)......if the current debate is that MB and Audi had to drop massive V8's in their engine bays to compete with the I6; then why is BMW going with a V8 for the next generation. Why don't they try and pump out more from the 6? Won't then your point me mute?

Honestly i think the 3.2ltr in the present M3 is about as good as it gets for a I6 of that size and that they can't squeeze a significant amount more out of it without sacrificing other things. Hence the need to bring in a V8 to battle the competition, the fact of the matter is that BMW are able to superiorly tune their engines in the M series, and that to achieve similar power outputs from similar capacities other manufacturers need to supercharge them or put in hairdryers.
Look at the upcoming RS6 that needed 2 hairdryers stuck onto the V10 to be able to top the M5, and again the same was the story with the soon to be obsolete 3.2ltr I6 from the E46 M3. There is a reason why the BMW engines keep winning awards such as engine of the year and alike.

They may be dominating in China but that doesn't mean they aren't made in Germany. Are you envious of the Chinese market?

Audi will kick anyone's mainstream ass when it comes to interior design.

THAT IS A FACT

Honestly...(imo) there are no letters that gather more envious stares, more curiosity, and more prestige than AMG. AMG is all about stuffing powerful engines in places they shouldn't be to create absolute monsters. Mercedes is never shy about creating machines that seem docile and beautiful on the outside but ridiculously powerful on the inside. The CLS63 AMG is the vehicle that embodies all that is AMG (again, imo).

Don't get me wrong, I BMW's "M" line is fantastic, but having the money, I'd go with AMG first. That said...the best comparison will be with the new CLK63 AMG and the 2007/8 BMW M3

The 3.2l in the E46 M3 certainly has hit the end of its evolutionary life. That much has been acknowledged by BMW itself. Although I am a staunch beemer fan, I just can't help but think that we are always playing catch up. MB brought out the v8 on the C-class some donkeys years ago, Audi has also done it for a while in the S4 but BMW is only bringing out theirs only now. It may suck, but that's just my opinion. The only consolation for me is that the E46 M gave the S4 a good run for its v8 and the C32 also got a hiding, then the c55. And in any case that C55 is nose heavy. Makes you wonder how it handles. Which also makes you wonder in the case that it does handle well, that how then does the M3 handle. Must be heaven on wheels.

But still, why is it that Audi and MB always bring out cars with bigger engines and greater horsepower than their BMW equivalents? When the E55 first came out it was a then M5 eater. Car magazine (South Africa) ran the story. That M5 really got clobbered. But then BMW brought out the 5.0l V10 (0.5l smaller) and returned the favour.

Another question. 5.5lx8 cylinders v/s 5.0lx10 cylinders which engine has the advantage here?
It seems like the Beemer has a bigger "total capacity" to me. Hmmm!

Ok pageonline read what you just wrote clearly and very slowly. The reason why Mb and Audi brought out the V8's was because they were the ones playing catch up to BMW's M3 which still kicked ass even with the I6 and their V8's. So now since Bmw is going to put out a new M3 thats going to kill the Rs4 and C55 then Audi and Mb will have to go to desperate measures all over again.

Why does everyone assume that Audi or Mercedes drop a big V8 into their cars to "beat the M3"? The answer is, they don't.

Audi and Mercedes' know their target markets and what they want. The same applies to their RS and AMG divisions. So while the Mercedes E63 AMG might be faster than the BMW M3, it might not be as well-balanced. And that's perfectly fine since the E63 AMG according to Mercedes' themselves is the "limousine among sports cars". That should tell you something.

The BMW M3 is a superb car not only because of the high-reving 6-cylinder engines. It also depends on the suspension tuning, steering feel, weight-distribution etc. etc. etc. The M3 is a true purist car, a car meant for racing and track duty. I would hardly call the CLK63 AMG a true racing car, since it is made for those who enjoy Mercedes' comforts with a bit more power and more sport.

Stop assuming that these automakers are trying to beat the M3 or M5 etc. They are not. And if an Audi or Mercedes should be quicker than an M3, that doesn't mean they gunned for beating it. These manufacturers stick close to their philosophy, which ain't even close to BMW's. Car magazines like to claim that the BMW M5, Audi S6 and MB E63 AMG are "rivals", when in fact, they aren't. Each car offers something uniquely different for different buyers with different expectations.

@ RUPERT

Only the RHD C-Class variants are made in South Africa, like those going to the UK. All other C-Classes are made in Germany.

@ Y2006

***The reason why Mb and Audi brought out the V8's was because they were the ones playing catch up to BMW's M3 which still kicked ass even with the I6 and their V8's. So now since Bmw is going to put out a new M3 thats going to kill the Rs4 and C55 then Audi and Mb will have to go to desperate measures all over again.***

Sorry, this is bullshit. Carmakers here are indirectly competing with one another in terms of performance. What they really press forward here are their respective philosophy's. BMW M is all about purism, Audi RS is a mix between MB and BMW with AWD and MB AMG is about luxury with power and improved handling. When Audi or MB stuffed a V8 into their A4 / C-Class, it wasn't really to "kick the M3's ass", but to give consumers what they wanted. The C32 AMG was an excellent car, I had the pleasure of driving it, but consumers wanted a V8, especially American consumers. The same deal with the Audi, hence these guys reacted.

FYI, the C55 AMG isn't an M3 competitor as the magazines like to put it, and so is the S4. The C55 AMG is a luxury car with power to spare and better handling over your stock C-Class. That's it. In no way does MB market the C55 AMG as an M3 killer. And I've seen C55 AMG 0-60 times as low as 4.8/4.9.

bmw have been making i6s forever, so they know how to get out the best and the have the race program which tunes the i6, so they find it easier to tune up an already made engine, rather than make a new one. however it is easier for merc and audi to make v8s as merc have always done them and i think v8s are cheaper to make. its why american "sports" cars like the cts-v have a huge 6.0 to compete with audi's 4.2, it is easier for them to do that.
don't forget the c55 and rs4 are both saloons, and so appeal to a slightly different market to an m3. does a c55 have the same kudos as an m3? no way.
m-b and audi aren't trying to beat bmw, they just realised they needed something in that market. and why not, it sells and lifts the brands image. think how differently mercedes was looked upon 20 years ago before amg came along. was seen as a bit of an old man car, just built invincibly.

BMW530i....

I couldn't agree with you more, but with all the engine talk I just had to ask the question.

I would take the M3 CSL if I had the right bank account....except I can't stand alcantara on the steering wheel.

@ Gert

***BMW530i, I agree with you to the last letter. I absolutely love Mercedes and couldn't be bothered with the purist driving experience a BMW offers. BMW make the best engines in the world. People don't seem to get this: If Mercedes' 55AMG, 63AMG or 65AMG beats an M3, it doesn't count. The M3 is a naturally aspirated 3.2 i6.***

BMW makes good engines, but so do Mercedes, Audi, Lexus etc. The bar has been raised dramatically and it is safe to say that most manufacturers have well-designed and refined engines out there. I've been impressed with the Audi, BMW and MB diesels I rent in Europe and here in the US, I had the pleasure of driving the SLK350. Wow, the engine might only have "268-hp on paper", but it feels like the car has much more than that. Refinement and response? First class.

I wouldn't put BMW M's and MB AMG's in the same class. Most people wrongly assume that AMG's are trying to match BMW M's, when in fact, they don't. An M product is for the purist driver. Someone who likes to control the car and enjoy curves and the track on weekends (this is just an example). Your average AMG customer wants a Mercedes' with beefed up performance and handling, but without sacrificing Mercedes' values like comfort etc. Two cars for two completely different desires. ;)

@ Mark

***I couldn't agree with you more, but with all the engine talk I just had to ask the question.

I would take the M3 CSL if I had the right bank account....except I can't stand alcantara on the steering wheel.***

Just concentrate on the road, not the steering wheel when you drive. :p

Thats exactly right. Mercedes needs a big fat 6.3 liter V8 475 horsepower to beat a BMW 333hp I6. Damn thats just sad. No matter how much you Audi and Mercedes fanboys want to brad BMW will always be the superior car. With is responsive stearting and porshe like handling.

mercedes probably only made the 63 so they could stick the new 7-tronic gear box on it, the 55 amg (since it's so torquey) would rip it apart. literally. bmw 4 ever, cadillacs do too. the cts-v has a 6.0 with 400. its a way of cutting costs, as the materials don't need to be so highly stressed.

6.2-liter V-8 that makes 475 horsepower that lame merc. check the new m3 v8 for an engine 400+ hp from a 4 liter v8.
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I smell a blinded BMW fan. First of all, the new MB engine is 6.3-l and has 514-horsepower, even more than the M5 FYI. Mercedes has long relied on bigger displacement for TORQUE. I am a BMW fan and even I know this.


------------------------------------------------
Thats exactly right. Mercedes needs a big fat 6.3 liter V8 475 horsepower to beat a BMW 333hp I6. Damn thats just sad. No matter how much you Audi and Mercedes fanboys want to brad BMW will always be the superior car. With is responsive stearting and porshe like handling.
------------------------------

Wow, I am ashamed to be a BMW fan, because idiots like you who apparently know nothing about BMW's competitor think that BMW reigns no matter what. Moron. Like I said before, Audi and Mercedes' have their own agendas, which is hardly trying to beat BMW at what BMW is good at. The Mercedes CLK63 AMG is not an M3 competitor. Please get that out of your head. How can a car, which is biased towards luxury and comfort, be considered an M3 competitor? Just because car magazines compare them isn't long enough a reason to claim that they are. The only reason they compare these two is because of price and perhaps similar power output. If they tested sport, the M3 would win. Performance? I suppose the CLK63 would be quicker in the straights. Luxury and comfort? Hands down the CLK would win.

bmw 530i, sorry but it is a 6.2. mercedes badging is mad. the 200 kompressor is a 1.8 and the 280 is a 3 litre. completely barmy. the 320cdi and 280cdi are the same (3.0) engine in different tune

The Audi RS4 sure is a BMW M3 competitor and it is a true competitor at that.

The RS4 is faster in both straight-line acceleration and track performance than the M3. The RS4 also has a NA engine producing a whopping 420 horsepower and it has an exhaust note that will intoxicate the soul.

The RS4 is the second of these bad-boys (C55 & M3 being the other two) to feature a massive V8 and this time Audi wasn't joking.

The RS4 has been proven to fly by the M3 in straight-line and also defeat it at the Nuburgring.

I forgot to add that for a car that weighs nearly 4,000 pounds and has AWD by being able to drive the way it does is surely a thing of beauty.

It may not be doing power-slides from the more experienced driver in the M3 but it can take an average driver and make him the super star.

This car is truly a force that the M3 will have to reckon with when producing their upcoming V8.

Need to clear up a little confusion ...Audi's V8 was not designed to compete against the M3, it was designed to demolish the M3, which it does in the form of the S4.

The RS4 is waaay out of the M3's league so I will not even mention it here.

For the last time, Audi and MB stick to their philosophy while BMW sticks to theirs.

Would you want BMW M to copy AMG? That means A/T transmission, softer suspension etc. I have no doubt that AMG's are capable sports sedans / cars, but they weren't designed to beat or rival BMW's.

Audi is a different matter. I think Audi is more of a threat to BMW M, but at the same time, Audi seems to be sticking to their philosophy of what a sports sedan should be. That means Quattro (AWD) and impressive performance.

Both of them don't RIVAL or want to beat BMW M. If they did, Audi and MB would both have developed manual transmissions and a racingbred suspension setup etc. Sure, they like to claim that these cars are designed to rival one another, but when you examine each and every car upclose, you can see that this can't be true.

I think the new M3 with 400+BHP will beat all it's competitors.especially in the performance, ride and handling area.

And secondly the CLK AMG,the Luxury Sports Coupe/cabrio is not the right M3's competitor.The C class AMG is.

And i think the current RS4 will drop down many places when the new M3,C 63 AMG,Lexus IS-R 450+BHP,Infiniti GTR..will hit the market.
Till then the RS4 can enjoy being in the top rank and beating the old M3's.

I think more than Audi the MB,Lexus and Infiniti will be the greatest threats to the benchmark of everyday's
SUPERCAR.THE M3


JUGNU-----THE CARMAN

None of the AMG's are really in rivalry with BMW M's, because both of these tuners offer different philosophies on the subject of sports sedans. Enough said.

Shouldn't the M3 be compared to the S4 and the CLK55, while the M3 CSL to the RS4 and CLK DTM?

So the E92 M3 CSL will most likely outperform the RS4 because it will come out much later.

ljbreit

The CSL is not sold in US and it is a stripped down version, basically a track car. The CLK DTM is a very limited version that is also not available in US and costs 200+ k, a one off car basically.

GermanNUTHEAD, you are obviously obsessed with your Audi's. Do you drive a Volkswagen or something? M3 and CLK are in different categories. MB is more luxurious than BMW will ever be. I'm not putting down BMW, BMW M, or any of their models. I saw in a comparison test on a track between the CLK500 and the 645ci. I'm not much of a technical guy but all I know is the MB beat the BMW.

Like the guy said in the comment above, I'd pick an AMG over an M anyday. AMG has more prestige to it than M does. M is pure sport and power. I'm into luxury more and since AMG offers powerful engines, then why not have the best of both worlds. Unfortunately BMW does not have the best of the luxury world. They came a tad short.

As for Audi's, I'd pick a BMW over Audi, and a MB over a BMW. If you can afford it go luxury/sport!. Why just sport!?

IMO! don't need GermanNut on my case with his 'information & facts' lol. It's just a comment board.

I drive an Audi and have driven BMW and MB as well. Why go for luxury & sport when the sport/luxury combination of a BMW or Audi is even better. Maybe when I'm ready to retire I'll prefer luxury over sprot but until then its BMW and Audi that get my money for a car.

chewy

I understand that these are special models but just because they are more expensive or not available in the US shouldn't mean that they aren't comparable.

The CSL and DTM's performace are more along the lines of what audi has chosen to offer here and they represent the best that each brand has to offer in a street legal vehicle of that category.

Fair enough, it's personal choice. I myself prefer a Benz. I'm more of a conservative looking guy so it suits my style anyways. Since I'm not that much of a racing type of person any difference between the 3 (great german companies) I won't notice nor will I care. In the end their all German and in the end they got their pros and cons. They all have something the others don't have and it's all fair game. That's how the business works.

I read somewhere once that the CLK55 AMG was the "best AMG track car" - even better than the SL55 AMG. Apparently, it was a good combination of light weight (compared to other AMG's) and an engine with just the right amount of power.

I still think of the CLK as more of a luxury GT cruiser that's smaller and cheaper than the SL and CL.

BMW530i, that is a given. Mercedes coupes are more of luxury gt cruisers than actual track cars. Combination with powerful engines and luxury = winning formula.

Gotcha, thanks. ;)

Lets clear the air on this subject. BMW builds all the M cars for a 5 year life cycle. They always debut with a larger engine with the new body configurations after the current body has been out for 2 years. BMW has been planning and testing a V8 engine in their M3 since the old one came out. Someone stated earlier that the RS4 in much faster in straight line acceleration than the current M3 I6. The Audi is about .3 of a second quicker but that is largely due to a V8 engine. If I am not mistaken though, The RS4 is on sale for about $ 74k. Then the S6 is brought up in a comparison against the M5, but it isnt even faster or better in performance that BMW's 550.

What I find amazing is that the magazines try and compare car that are nothing alike. The Audi S6 is a nice car but has no business being compared to a M5 or E63 AMG. Or the new Audi RS4 vs a M3. The Audi is new and I understand that the M3 has always been the car to beat in this segment, but come on. There is now way that is a fair comparison. The Audi should win every performance category.

The question is what does what other number scares a M3? Nothing .... The M3 is the benchmark in this segment and has been pound for pound the best sports car. Rated by all the magazines and test that have been done for the last 20 years. Until someone can prove over time that they should be feared and not a one shot wonder, then the M3 has nothing to fear.

"What I find amazing is that the magazines try and compare car that are nothing alike"
media hype works wonders for sales.

M3 all the way! nothing can scare an M3 not even a CLK73 :p! BMW has its own ways of demolishing the competition. Get out of the way clk63/rs4, there is an M3 behind u!!!!!!