If Lexus is globally a Tier I brand then so is Audi

Audi is a Tier 1, however Lexus by sheer sales in the US probably is. Audi is a defined global innovation leader and is defined as a "Premium" maker. Lexus is a mass "Luxury" maker by definition.

Lexus is just really being release globally, however the results are lukewarm, especially in Japan and Europe. A lack of models and history to back them up are te key stumbling blocks according to analysts.

Tier 1 is typically defined by sales volume not really anything else.

Well, asks this, would you rather own an Audi A8/S8 or a Lexus LS? To me, I think the A8/S8 is seen as more sport/luxury with better handling, and I think Lexus is more luxury/sport with refined handling and more cush.

Me? I prefer Sport of luxury, but I'm not the market for the A8/LS. When I reach that age, my attitude may change.

On a side note, I just got my first ever japanese vehicle (Infiniti FX35 for a long term review) and it is my second non german car, and I have been blown away at how well the japanese manufacturers are engineering the feel of driving a german car. The FS definitely drives like a car, and corners way better then our X5.

Props to the japanese for their continued work at beating the german makers bread and butter. They're getting real close.

That should be "sport over luxury" not "sport of luxury"

Lexus is a U.S. Automaker that introducedd its first model in 1990 and has only just started to penetrate other markets including Europe and Japan.

Audi has been selling cars in the U.S. since 1968.

Lexus is a Tier 1 automaker based on the above statements and the fact that the company has made Tier 1 luxury cars since day one and have become the best luxury brand in the U.S. in such a short amount of time.

Audi on the other hand has had twice the amount of years to built their reputation and quality in the U.S. and has failed. Partyly due to the fact that n 1986 Audi's reputation was destroyed by a later deemed false "unintended acceleration" campaign created by 60 minutes, which induced fear to gain ratings.

Agent004,

The Japanese are getting close but the Germans do not give up easily.

Being that I used to live in Japan when I served in the military; I have ever since respected Japanese automobiles.

If I had to choose now in my life (age 26) I would surely choose an Audi..... but then again the new Lexus IS is no joke either. Just like Agent004 said maybe my attitude will change when get older...But have you guys seen "Transporter 2" Oh my gosh, that Audi A8 was so damn sexy...it almost looked as good as Jason Stathom.

"The Japanese are getting close but the Germans do not give up easily."

- Agent004


I couldn't have said it better.

Lexus has big muscles behind them, in Toyota, so they have lots of backing and funding...

Audi and Lexus are great, but both has not really been respected, mainly because they are owned by a "lower" tiered automaker, VW and Toyota, where as Mercs and BMWs are independent companies. Jags were once up there, but since ford bought them out, they have gone down the drain. But Audi and Lexus are both climbing up... Truthfully, I hate Lexus, but I give them that much respect for what they have done... I own an Audi, so I love Audis and German cars...

audi is very much tier one in europe. lexus, not so much. it really only seems to be america where lexus is viewed as higher than audi.

As a general rule (not true 100% of time) Lexus prices its products lower in the US relative to the German competition. For example the LS has often had transaction prices closer to E class Mercedes than S class. So what? Well (a.) The German manufacturers have had to become much more price competitive here in the US and boost equipment levels and performance (b.) I believe anytime it wants, Lexus can boost European sales by slashing its prices and still make a profit. See example at end of this message.

So next time you Euro-readers wonder why the US market loves Lexus consider not just reliability but that also a large part of the reason is the enhanced value that Lexus has generated in the US luxury market. You can beg Lexus in Europe to put in smaller engines, cloth seats, hell why not manually winding windows? - meanwhile we smug Americans will laugh at you because we can buy luxury vehicles that are fully loaded for the price of your stripped-down taxis.

EXAMPLE:
Lexus prices in Europe are much higher than in the US. Please note that some folks try and attribute the price difference to taxes, but this is only part of the difference. For example, a loaded Lexus RX350 SE-L is about 41,600 UK pounds (= over US$76,000 at current exchange rates of one pound = $1.85) including taxes. However a loaded RX in the US is about US$47,000 before discounts. Assuming UK taxes of around 20% are included in the UK price, then the UK price for an RX 350 SE-L ought to be around 30,500 UK pounds including taxes (US $57,500) instead Lexus charges about 33% more.

if chrysler and m-b are so interchangeable, why is the next gen voyager being developed with volkswagen and not on the same platform as m-b r-class? it seems like a very strange thing to do.

It would help if the definition of Tier 1 was clearly defined, but in the absence of that, here are my 2 cents: Lexus is nothing but a reliable, boring and blandly styled, carousel horse-like handling cheap-Luxury knock off that even the Japanese who make them do not want to buy. But then I wouldn't too. If in July 05 they were mass market Toyotas and by August the badges switched and they became Luxury cars who would? No wonder Lexus sold just under 50% of the lowballed 20,000 units that were projected for Japan from late summer through late last year. Contrast that with Germany the motherland of "real" Luxury cars where Audi is the no. 1 Luxury brand. For the record, over the past few years, Audi and BMW have traded the top two slots, but MB has remained no. 3 in Germany. While all three have traded the top three positions depending on the country in Europe, Lexus is not even on the radar for obvious reasons. The only place Lexus sells is in the US where the average Joe cares more about low prices, leather and Navigation than Brand Heritage, Styling, Performnce, Handling and Sophistication. So is Lexus tier 1, it would be fair to say yes in the US market, but no worldwide, especially in Europe. Audi is Tier 1 globally period!!

BMW and MB are Tier 1 companies.
Audi is going twards being having a Tier 1 status globaly, but it's not there yet.

It needs to conquer the Us market and have clear and powerfull image like BMW.

Lexus isn't isn't even worth mentioning.
Apart from the US and a few other countries it isn't even on the radar.

DarkOneForce your comment about Audi going towards Tier I status globally, but not being their yet is false. Audi only trails in one single market but globally Audi is right there just behind BMW & MB in terms of annual global sales.

The only market where Audi is trailing is in the U.S./North American Market.

Everywhere else in the world including Europe where Audi is the #1 brand along with being the #1 brand in the home country of MB, BMW, Porsche and Audi known as Germany, Audi is a sales leader.

If you look at Asia, Audi is the sales leader in China which is a market with over 1 billion people.

There are many reasons for Audi's lack of success in the U.S. market. First being that whole 60 Minutes fiasco and the sales tank that followed it. Secondly, Audi has not introduced many of their RS or S models to the U.S except for the previous RS6 and current selling RS4.

If you remember correctly, the previous Audi RS4 never made it to the U.S. Audi also previously never had SUVs which is the hottest market around.

To fix this Audi brought over the B7 RS4 and look at the reviews it has received along with 2 SUVs with the Q5 & Q7. Audi has also brought over an S6 which has already defeated the BMW M5 in 2 comparison tests.

The new TT (Model Year 2008) is being praised for its massive acceleration improvement while keeping its great styling both inside & out. There will be a TTRS with 350 horsepower ready to battle the Z4M & SLK55/63 AMG.

The A5 is in development and going to be released next year. There will be an RS5 as well along with the never before seen Audi supercar (another market never before entered by Audi) known as the R8.

Additionally, there is an S3 that might make it to the U.S. and there is also another RS6 in the works with a 5.5 liter bi-turbo V10 with 550 horsepower.

Is Audi Tier I yet? Yes.

Is Audi going to become even more of a force in the premium/luxury market in the next 5-10 years.....Most Definetely.

* First let's get some things straight, models such as theS/RS, M, AMG, are build for image and profit margins not for volume.

* After the 60 minutes fiasco, they should have launched a great PR campaign to rebuild their image. BMW had a problem with its youppie image when the 80s were over, and even considered withdrawing from the USA, but they didn't they rebuilded the image and persevered.

* Audi should have not been so reticent to build SUVs.

* Audi only builded cars that could trully compete with MB/BMW since 2003. They should have done it sooner.

* Image/Perception. As I said since they made competitive cars since 2003 they've yet to trully escape 100% the poor man's BMW/MB perception.
Also what does Audi stand for. What is it asociated with.
BMW is the ultimate driving machine, MB in its glory days was engineered like no other.
That strong diferentiating image is something Audi has yet to create.

* For the USA it also has a problem in resale value.

audi is vorsprung durch technik, "lead through technology". and it does.

Gee well MB is also known as quality disaster these days. Audi is known as leader through technology and that is so easily apparent.

It ranges to everything from the LeMans R10 TDI Race car which is the most successful modern racecar.

The DSG transmissions which is better than SMG and anything Ferrari can try to make.

The Bang & Olufsen is the best sound system around.

MMI is easily the most intuitive out of i-Drive & COMAND.

THere you have it Audi's motto of being the leader through technology relates to everything from racing victories to gearboxes to sound systems and user interface systems.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Let's not forget Quattro. No other company uses 4 wheel drive so consistently to their advantage in terms of handling & acceleration like Audi.

Audi is not a sales leader in China. VW once was, until GM took that position from them with Buick.

Audi is the sales leader in China for cars in the premium luxury segment (BMW, MB, Audi, Porsche etc..) with a 65% market share.

Tier 1 - who cares. Audi has proven it can't produce a reliable vehicle. BMW and MB have had continual electronic issues. Lexus, on the other hand, sells expensive vehicles at volume, treats its customers respectfully, introduces desireable innovation (hybrid) instead of gimmicky junk (BMW i-drive).

If you're into snob-appeal, buy the Euro trash. As for me, I enjoy not knowing the service manager's name...

bmiliate, hybrids are a gimmick. useless at continued speed, expenisive to buy and repair.

Ahh, my bad, I should read closer. Good eye Caltrans.

Ahh, my bad, I should read closer. Good eye Caltrans.