Bob Lutz Tells WHY Cadillac LOST Its Shine To The Germans And Asians

Hey Bob planet earth is calling you , shit wrapped in chocoalte paper will always be shit.......

"...arguably of higher quality"

And THIS from the top Agent at Spies!!!!!


Bob is NOT the ONLY problem with arguments like this floating around!!! We DON'T make better cars than Audi, Merc, BMW, Volvo, Lexus, (I could go on!!!) even in our wildest wet dreams, Agent!!! There was a time when we could be honest about having our asses handed to us, go into the shed, and emerge with a BETTER product than the other guy! Those days are all but GONE!! (Except for a few patriot and scud missiles!) We still dominate in ARMS, not science, math, or manufacturing that a global economy needs!!

"With that trend came the loss of prestige, so that the more affluent, better-educated demographics began to shop elsewhere: Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar brands that were more expensive, arguably of higher quality, and, most of all, in limited supply"


And by this argument, if you sell well, it's only a matter of time before people flee your brand?? The Germans made quality and IMPROVED on it yearly!!! That's how THEY became successful, Agent!!! Not because the bourgeoisie turned their noses up at what the proletariats bought!!!

And for the uninitiated, Billy, why don't you tell the good folks what kind of suburb of "HatLanta" Buckhead is!!! I am SURE you see more Range Rovers than most!!

And the Cherokee is built on a Mercedes ML suv platform. German engineering still prevailed.

Funny you mention one end of the planet to the other when Land Rover is the only SUV to drive around the world, that being said your statement is invalid from a car company that hasn't driven from on end of the workd to the other. Once again, the jeep is left behind the rover. Don't follow me, you won't make it. lol. Seriously though the new cherokee is a very nice vehicle and quite capable offroad in stock form.

Having left my area code frequently, and having spent time in Germany, I found it interesting that so many puttered about in sub-100 HP Fiats, Renaults, Skodas, etc. These are vehicles with less refinement than I'd expect in a 15-year-old Buick. Yet so many self-hating Americans have been brainwashed into the Euro superiority complex (as can be observed on any given day's posted comments on this website by the trolls-in-residence).

Bob is more than likely referring to the days before American sales and German protectionism allowed the huge technical leaps made by BMW/MB/Audi in the modern era. The truth of the matter is that American companies did all of the groundbreaking work in pollution controls and safety devices we now take for granted... While the Euros sputtered about with carburetors in the mid 70s (or mechanical injection at best) dumping clouds leaded gasoline HC, Cadillac was offering computer-logic-based electronic fuel injection and capturing 90+% of pollutants via the industry-standard catalytic converter they pioneered and granted to the world patent-free.

When they could only dream of safety features like airbags in a $10,000 Mercedes, GM was offering them to the public in a $4000 Impala. While the the Germans were toning their thighs pumping brake pedals, Chrysler was offering electronic ABS in 1971. When Mercedes wanted to add automatic climate control to their boxy taxi-cabs, they sourced it from Chrysler. Feel free to research any of these little-known facts and disprove them.

However, American cars were "common" in the 70s and typically owned by "the man", "the establishment" and all the other words that dirty hippies used to descibe their parents generation. So in order to rebel, they bought brands marketed as rebelious. No one really thinks a BMW 2002 is a good looking car... It actually looks more like a H.S. metalshop project outfitted with universal trailer tailights and lots of exposed phillips-head screws. BUT it was a nice way to say "F-U" to the ol' man and his powder blue Caddy.

American companies, while possessing technical superiority and resources at the time, failed to react to the trend. The result is an entire generation that thinks an M5 is so very advanced in comparison to a Cadillac, because years of marketing (Ironically, the "ultimate driving machine" that Lutz championed when working at BMW.) have left an indelible stain on the minds of most Americans.

If I'm wrong, campaign for the German governemnt to remove the 19% tax on American-made goods, and we'll see how many CTS-V's get exported to Germany.

YOU were there when fire was invented, I'm guessing!! Get your old head out of your ass or YOU will end up where I suspect you already are --in the "black tar" of your aged existence! So, your (excuse me) LOGIC is that we have all been brainwashed and the quality of Audis, Mercs, BMWs, and others of the world has been just a huge mind fuck??? Whatever you are smoking, see Dr Drew for a cure!! If you have the time, go into a dealership and drive a CAR! Don't worry they don't have hand cranks any more, don't be scared!

"Yet so many self-hating Americans"


"...comments on this website by the trolls-in-residence"


The name calling started with YOU!!!

Really? This is the best reply you can come up with?

"YOU were there when fire was invented"
"in the "black tar" of your aged existence!"
"they don't have hand cranks any more, don't be scared!"

So your basic complaint is that I'm "old"? Oh my, perhaps I should have killed myself before reaching the ripe old age of 38. Or maybe I should just unlearn the things I know? Knowledge BAD! Historical fact BAD!

I could start the mind-wipe with having been present when MB ML-series SUVs were tested competitively against Jeep GC's in the early 2000s and the ML's had to end testing early because the budget alloted for replacement parts was exhausted after two weeks. (Don't worry, they did continue using the route Chrysler designed for Sebring convertibles, lol... Jeeps stayed off-road without failure.)

Um, to the Star-Trek guy... German protectionism doesn't work against German EXPORTS. If their 19% tax on American imports doesn't exist (and much loved by IG Metall) you'd do better to counter my arguement. Please don't further confirm my belief that you really don't know squat (because I want to embrace the Borg) by labeling crumple zones (which are an evolving science) as a Mercedes "invention". If it was an invention, do tell first used in what year? Would it be fair to say that American cars from say... the early 1960s didn't attempt to control crash energy, and were just a series of randomly designed parts?

[img]http://www.fairimage.org/Chrysler%20crash%test.jpg[/img]

..and if you don't know who IG Metall is, they are the all-powerful Euro/German autoworkers union, with governmental ties/power the UAW could have only in their wildest dreams. They LOVE the 19% tariff added to American goods (and rebated to German exports)... No small coincidence that Europe's number one auto manufacturing nation has the highest auto import tariff in Europe I suppose, lol.

Yeah, it's all just a matter of American's being fat and having some bad roads I suppose...

1c3am5. Your comments are a breath of fresh air. I would even go farther to say it was American ingenuity that gave the Japanese the tools to build cars. Even today they are attempting to build full sized trucks using American pickups as there model.

You could have simply stated that you forgot more about cars than IMofM or eldard had ever known collectively.

Thank you bfgcuda... Were you able to see the link/photo I posted? My internet-access is limited at this location, so I don't know how to post a photo from a third party. If you can make it work, feel free.

I tried but no cigar.

BSBB
bfghemicuda
1c3am5

All Americans, I am guessing?? :) Nothing wrong with defending your country's contribution to engineering or anything else!! But, should the Greeks come back and claim philosophy, let's say, as their own to the exclusion of all others??? I am sure you would all agree "NO!" My point is, rest on your LONG, LOST TO TIME laurels and see where it gets you!! And to the comment about tariff, are you trying to say, if the playing field was level, the WORLD would sing the praises of American cars as being BETTER than brands like Ferrari, Aston, Bentley, Audi , Lambo, Merc, BMW, Lexus, Pagani, Bugatti, Lotus, etc????? And my, for a person of ONLY 38, one of you sounded like the pages of the history books are akin to reading the Wall Street Journal! Needless to say, you all have your opinions and I have mine! I bet not one of you though, IF (and I did say IF) you had the means, would pass on a DB9, 458, Mulsanne, A8L, Aventador, S65, Turbo S!!! I think there is some anti-American sentiments here, don't get me wrong! I don't share them!! But if you can all go to sleep tonight knowing that this country is safe (in the way of car manufacturing from companies that almost went belly up), then have at it fellas! We will ALL see what the future holds!! There are plenty of T-Rex bones in museums to peruse!

It was refreshing to read a factual comment supporting American car engineering. There are a handfull of those on this site that have an anti-American agenda which is fine but gets old. The bashing could begin, but we would get nowhere fast. My comment was not aimed at quality of vehicle [which is a seperate debate] as much as respect for what has been contributed.

Thank you for dodging my question!

Only a fool would argue with facts, or as you say, "contribution" My point goes strictly to "...quality of vehicle." That is the ONLY thing that will save the American car maker! Not what contributions were made in the past! I, for one, thinks the Vette should be a SERIOUS contender to any Ferrari or Lambo in EVERY way --marquee, prestige, performance, esthetics you name it! But that is sadly not the case! Why not, I ask?? Not to drop names, but a reviewer like Clarkson of Top Gear is totally out of his mind? There is the perception that American cars, performance wise, are rocket ships strapped to metal boxes! The craftsmanship and fastidious attention to even the minutest detail, the obsession over being the best at what you do is somehow a lost art to us! Shame, considering where we came from and how far we have fallen!!

Yea I gotcha. But using your example of the Corvette, It could be highly refined as could be the Viper. The question is, is there a customer base that would support the higher cost? Personally I don't know. If there was it would take time to prove the refinement. On the other hand ther are a large amount of supporters that like the fact of a Corvette/Viper beating the Ferrari/Lambo with less sophistication. As far as quality, I have seen all american car improving ie. Grand C.

BSBB as soon as I pressed "Submitt" I thought of the same thing. There is a huge aftermarket in the states for the Hot Rodder that exists nowhere else. Thank you SEMA for all you do.

The LF-A at $400k! There is a base! And that car was built from the ground up by a car maker's FIRST foray into "hyper" cars using self-taught ingenuity!

Quote:

"IF you had the means, would pass on a DB9, 458, Mulsanne, A8L, Aventador, S65, Turbo S!!! "

Whoa... I don't recall saying anything remotely close to "foreign cars are crap" did I? No need to get defensive, and I don't think the hyper-expensive name-dropping was required. We're just talking about ordinary Lexus/Audi/MB sedan vs. ordinary Cadillac, not $400,000 supercar vs. $50,000 car.

The topic being discussed is Bob Lutz's claim that a new generation of American's abandoned US luxury cars because they were no longer viewed as "different", or "exclusive". I believe Mr. Lutz is talking about a period in time from roughly 20-40 years ago, when foreign luxury makes were first viewed as competiton.

You want to talk hyperbole? Here are comments that preceded mine:

"We DON'T make better cars than Audi, Merc, BMW, Volvo, Lexus, (I could go on!!!) even in our wildest wet dreams"

"Comparing the new M5 to a CTSV is like comparing a space shuttle to the wright brothers self propelled glider"

"Plus Americans have horrid taste, so trying to get a bunch of tasteless Yanks to design a decent sporty luxury car is like trying to find a unicorn"

"No, you can't compete with German or Jap engineering.

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So I brought you back to planet earth, and reminded you that American companies pioneered technologies that are now considered commonplace. I don't consider that "resting on laurels", I consider it having knowledge of history that doesn't come from a marketing campaign, or something a 25-year-old writer at Motor Trend wrote down as a "fact".

If you want a more modern take, I cited the example of what a piece of unreliable, sludge-prone crap the original ML320 series was, and why the new ML will be based from a chassis largely developed by Jeep engineers working in Detroit... despite what the MB "marketeers" will tell you. I would also cite technologies like Magna-ride, On-Star (and other telematics) cylinder de-activation, hybrids, non-battery hybrids, as places where the Euro makes are playing catch-up.

As to this statement:

"And to the comment about tariff, are you trying to say, if the playing field was level, the WORLD would sing the praises of American cars as being BETTER than brands like Ferrari, Aston, Bentley, Audi , Lambo, Merc, BMW, Lexus, Pagani, Bugatti, Lotus, etc?????"

Every car on that list is $60-$500,000 or more, so barely relevant. I do think that most American cars are better than the $25,000 Fiats, Renaults, VWs, etc. which are far more common on the streets of Europe than high end MBs/BMWs and the exotics you mentioned, therefore more relevant.

If given a chance to compete without tariffs, I do think many Euros would enjoy speciality cars like the PT Cruiser, V6 Mustang, Jeeps... Those models are already some of the most often exported. In time, a business case could then be made to further adapt them to European tastes. EXACTLY as the European makes did w

Looks like I got cutoff... Continued:

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"And to the comment about tariff, are you trying to say, if the playing field was level, the WORLD would sing the praises of American cars as being BETTER than brands like Ferrari, Aston, Bentley, Audi , Lambo, Merc, BMW, Lexus, Pagani, Bugatti, Lotus, etc?????"

Every car on that list is $60-$500,000 or more, so barely relevant. I do think that most American cars are better than the $25,000 Fiats, Renaults, VWs, etc. which are far more common on the streets of Europe than high end MBs/BMWs and the exotics you mentioned, therefore more relevant.

If given a chance to compete without tariffs, I do think many Euros would enjoy speciality cars like the PT Cruiser, V6 Mustang, Jeeps... Those models are already some of the most often exported. In time, a business case could then be made to further adapt them to European tastes. EXACTLY as the European makes did when their exports began to sell in the US... They added more powerful engines, better A/C, auto transmissions, and even (God forbid) CUPHOLDERS!

But by virtue of a closed market, (Some) Euro makes have been safely growing in a vacuum. Don't believe me? How about this European person...

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"European manufacturers simply do not close plants. The reason for that, in turn, is that they simply do not have to. In fact, they’re often paid not to. The last time a German plant shut down, World War II had yet to begin.

This problem coincides with European governments’ apparent determination to make the automotive sector the last bastion of economic nationalism on the continent. More than half a century has passed since the Treaty of Rome was signed, yet European governments continue to act as nursemaids to their domestic automakers while discriminating against those of other countries.

Their motives for doing so may be admirable. Preserving jobs is one—but ensuring that human needs are met is an imperative all of society must meet, not one to be forced, inefficiently and ineffectively, on industries that can only do so artificially."

Sergio Marchionne, if you didn't recognize the quote.

Cadillac lost its shine when it made front wheel drive crap with cheap door panels and switches that fell off. the armrest always falls apart and the power window and seat switches just dangle. 70's on up American cars interiors were phenomenally cheaper made and didn't last half as long as Japanese or German cars. The CTS is a worthy competitor and Cadillac is creating the best luxury cars America has ever made. Aside from the DTS and Escalade, Caddy is making an American car I can say we should be proud of. Problems is its a day late and a dollar short. Just like it took decades for people to see how much better Toyota Camry and Honda accord was than out crap we made from the 80's and 90's. CTS is the flat out best car we have ever built. the New vette needs to match the interior quality and fit and finish and needs the plastic panels not to cave in 2 inches at the slightest touch like the back bumper of the current vette. Performance wise it is every bit as good as what Germany and Italy offers. dynamics need to be polished (vipers generate very impressive numbers but are a nightmare to drive near the limit) and fit and finish needs improvement. Look at the GTR. for once the japs actually give a bigger bang for the buck without having cheaply made interiors and body panels. They are proof it can be done and offered at a reasonable price without cutting corners on interior and fit and finish.