SPY PHOTOS: New Lexus IS500

Having achieved excellence in product quality and service, Lexus is finally (about time) getting down to making some interesting and fun cars. Looking forward to the IS500 and especially the LF-A. If the NSX replacement from Honda is not forthcoming or if it is a GT, I will have to replace my current NSX with the LF-A.

"Lexus does not want to get in to horsepower wars with their German competition"

Ironically, Lexus is doing very well in the HP wars, and beating both BMW and MB. Toyota engines are more fuel efficient for the same amount of power. The new Camry V6 is absolutely amazing. It creates more power than a 330i engine (0-60 in the new Camry is markedly better than the current 330i), yet mileage is 23-30MPG. Dang. For $23,000 you're getting a Camry that beats a 330i off the line, and add another $6k in aftermarket suspension/handling improvements and you're talking about a car with better reliability, handling and fuel efficiency than the 330i.

BMW is only the "ultimate driving machine" if compared to stock cars, but against $6k in aftermarket upgrades, that advantage disappears.

Lexus is beating both BMW & MB in the HP wars? What the hell are you talking about quizz? The IS 350 is the only car in Lexus's lineup with the most HP in it's class.

LS 430 has a way smaller engine than a 750i or Audi A8. The GS 300 has 245 HP while an Audi A6 3.2 has 255hp, BMW 530i 255hp, and MB E350 has 268hp. An IS 250 comes with 205hp and it's direct competitor the BMW 325i comes with 215 hp. Only the IS 350 rated at 306hp out-powers the MB C350 rated at 268hp.

By the way a Bimmer 330i outguns a Camry.

Looks the IS 500 will have the horsepower to beat the rivals. Wonder how the car itself will be though. Just want to point out that the Honda S2000 had a 2.0L engine between 2001 and 2005. After that the engine has been upgraded to 2.2L. Thats much better horsepower per liter.

"Wonder how the car itself will be though." Was talking about the handling and weight balance. Looks like alot of people are complaining about the VDIM too. Will these issues still remain or will this truly be a M killer?

You guys are sounding are like the Germans don't know how to build engines, especially with the comment about the Benz AMG V8 6.3, which is naturally aspirated by the way, CommonSense. Additionally, MB has always relied on big displacement for torque and longlivity reasons. This has nothing to do with their "lack of engineering compared to the Japanese". If you look at some of the old Mercedes (or Auto Union or BMW) racing cars from the 1930s and 1950s, you'll be amazed at how much horsepower per liter they have been pumping out - in those days, most of it N/A too.

Why should the Germans focus on extracting the most horsepower per liter anyway? Why? Is there a rule that says so? I don't think so. I've been to Europe often enough to figure out that they aren't crazy about engines like that. In Japan however, with stringent emission laws and engine cc laws, their manufacturers are forced to extract the most horsepower per liter. It is essentially a governmental policy which has created this trend among the Japanese. Europe? They're not that extreme. And I'd say the BMW M3 3.2-l inline-6 is a pretty good example of what the Germans can do. Could they have extracted more power from it? Sure. But if they'd gotten more horsepower out of it, the fuel economy will suffer more, the engine might need higher rev's for more torque, the car might not comply with US emissions etc. There's a bunch of considerations carmakers have to take in. They can't simply get the most horsepower per liter to please you.

BALANCE is the key. You want to balance fuel economy, emissions etc. And let's not forget that what's on paper is one thing, driving it is another. The SLK350 has what? 268-hp? Yet it can rock to 60 in under in the mid 5.5 seconds (or perhaps less). Could MB have gotten more power out of it? You bet, but they BALANCED the engine as best as possible to satisfy many criterias. Same deal with all other companies.

BTW, I heard MB is coming out with a direct injection version of the 3.5-l V6 with over 300-hp. Anyone hear about this?

NOSENSE,
Your ignorance amazes me. Since you think the Japanese are so talented why they aren’t showing it to the world in F1, the pinnacle of motor engineering.

Only a fool like you praises the HP that some sewing machine in a S2000 produces and then tries to convince auto enthusiast that it takes talent to design something like that.
Where is all of that talent when it comes to designing an F1 engine? Last time I checked Honda and Toyota are crap in F1.

BTW, the 6.3 liter AMG engine is the World's most powerful NA stock V8 engine.

Munich Rob, im think your mistaken. RIght now, the IS has the most power with the 350. THe GS has the most power the the 4GS50H (339hp) and pretty soon, the LS will have 380hp right up next to MB and BMW. So basically, lexus is beginning to beat all cars in all lineups, it just takes time.

Oh and i forgot to mention the LS600H i think it was 430hp. Keep in mind, even if bmw and MB have their M and AMG powerplants, these lexus cars are priced much lower than their competitors

Lexus Guys, lets face it, Lexus's 380hp doesnt match up to anything... ok, lets go face to face...

(current production)
Top Lexus: 430
Top Merc: 612+
Top BMW: 507
Top Porsche: 612
Top Audi: 450

Lexus people: "now lets turn this into a hp/litre war... because we cannot win the hp war..."

Does it matter if you have 8 litre and make 1001 hp? or do you have to have small engines and make a lot of hp?

Lexus person: "I have no other way to win this argument, lets bring in price as an argument. This is good bang for the buck..." Well, you know, The best bang for the buck cars are the Porsche GT3, Bugatti Veyron, or the Porsche 917/30s. Good luck getting those numbers...

Lexusadmirer,

Toyota can thank Bstone for the pace they had in the last race. It changes nothing. TOYOTA is still the biggest LOSERS in F1. The biggest budget by far for the past 5 years and they have yet to win ONE RACE.

Honda has been promising a great car every year and ended up producing crap year after year.

NOSENSE,
FYI, an F1 engine produces around 750hp from 2.4L, so stop preaching about your sewing machine.
Every car manufacturer has the technology to build a 120hp/l engine if the choose to.
Wake up you rice fool. You obviously watched The Fast and the Furious too many times.

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT:
"Developed entirely by AMG, this high-performance engine has a displacement of 6.3 litres and generates an output of 375 kW/510 hp at 6800 rpm, plus a maximum torque of 630 Newton metres, which makes the new power pack by AMG the world’s most powerful naturally aspirated eight-cylinder production engine."

Formula 1: last I checked, Germans ahead of Japs... Mclarens MERCEDES' 71 pts beats both HONDA's 32 and TOYOTA's 21. Then you add in BMW's 20, and Midland TOYOTA's ....0?!? If my math is correct, I think 91 pts is more than 53... I don't know... Could someone here help me with the math? I thought Japanese were supposed to be better... WOW! Thats odd...

btw, hate to break all your bubbles, but F1 is only the pennacle of racing in one aspect. Don't forget endurance, 24h Lemans, 24h Nurburgring, 24h Spa, 12h sebring, 24h daytona... and last I checked, leader board says:

24h lemans:
Porsche 17
Ferrari 9
Jaguar 7
Audi 6
Merc 2
BMW 1
and the lonely Japanese at 1 (Mazda, not toyota)

24h Nurburgring
BMW 18
Porsche 7
Ford 5
Chrysler 3
Opel 1
Where's the Japs?

24h Spa:
BMW 21
Alfa 7
Ford 6
Mercedes 2
Porsches, Astons, Bugattis, etc...
The TWO...TWO (2) Japanese winners were Nissan and Mazda...

Must I go on?

24h daytona? Come on guys, Porsche dominates this thing...

Any questions guys? feel free to go check out the info. They are legit...

Anyways, just before I let you guys know that this is completely pointless, I just want to say that HPs are not everything... Dodge Viper's 525 HP pushes it to 60 in 3.9s... funny how a 997 911S's 355 HP does 60 in the same time... HOW DOES THAT WORK?!?! I THOUGHT HORSEPOWERS WERE SO IMPORTANT... HOW COME A PONTIAC GTO'S 0-60 IS ONLY 4.8 WITH 400 HP, WHILE AN M3'S IS 4.7 WITH 333HP? WHATS GOING ON GUYS? HOW COME IT WORKS LIKE THAT? OR A G35'S 0-60 IS 5.8 WITH 280 HP WHILE A BMW 330I W/ PERFORMANCE PKG DOES THE SAME WITH 235 HP? IS THIS WORLD GOING MAD?

PS, I know 0-60 is not the only thing, btw... and weight/drive wheel, aeros, downforce, grip, etc also affects... so doesnt that just kill the whole HP argument? its not important, but if it is, the Germans will still win...

oh, btw, I forgot Super Aguri (HONDA), which contributes to a whole 0 pts... so that makes it:

MB 71 + BMW 20 = 91
vs
Toyota 21 + Honda 32 + Midland 0 + Super Aguri 0 = 53

hope u guys have fun reading all the stats... he he

LexusKindaGuy12 if you read what i said again you'll realize I said the IS350 is the only Lexus with the most hp in it's class.

That said a BMW 550i which is in the same class as the GS450h, is more powerfull with a 360hp V8. Not to mention the refreshed MB E500, now the E550 with 380hp V8.

you should rename yourself MunchenRob... ha ha

Everyone (CommonSense included) who is having arguments over BHP/litre:

Read BMW530i's post. It is very well written and right on the button.

What he may also like to add is how BHP/ton affects drivability. On paper 240hp from a N/A 2-litre is impressive, but have you ever stopped to wonder how that translates on the road? On a good driving road, between a S2000 and say, a Porsche Boxster, the Porsche driver would be hustling that car round at a rate of knots, riding the engines impressive torque while remaining relatively relaxed, as gear changes are kept to a minimum thanks to Mr Torque and a sane redline.

The Honda driver would be frantically trying to keep the engine on cam, which means an excess of 5000rpm at all times, this would be buzzy and noisy in the cabin, and he would have to change down for every corner because any significant drop in rpm and it would all be over. This constant redline-chasing would become irritating and tiresome after a while (something often noted by professional car journalists), while the larger-displacement Porsche would suffer no such problems.

this may be a very unscientific example of why on-paper stats can only be taken at face value, but i hope it clears some things up.

Then we see the other side of the scale- American engines. Too lazy for my liking.

The Europeans manage to find the sweet spot in the middle.

whose talking about France and Italy? Dummy... you are probably a Super Aguri fan... don't worry, they'll unveil their new car soon. And the other seat will be filled with another Japanese driver soon...

Its ok... btw, this is about BMWs, Mercs, Audis, and Lexus... When I read the article, I didnt remember seeing Renaults or Ferraris... I don't know, but am I mistaken, or are you just random? Also, sticking to German v. Japan, Germany, 3rd place, Japan first round drop out in world cup... btw, what does 24HOJ stand for? 24h of Tokachi? (but that would be a T, not J... please shed some light...

Why is it that when Lexus tries to bring out a sports car or a luxury car the hardcore German car lovers come out and bad mouth Lexus?...I think its cause they are scared and insecure cause they need to constantly have to remind themselves how good they really are. If your good, people will take notice - I see you noticing the IS500? something must be catching your eye.
Yeah BMW do build great M cars, Audi R/RS & AMG C-Class, etc etc but lest we forget that they have been doing it for many generations of 3 series, A4s & C Class repsectively. This is Lexus' first attempt to bring out a sports tuned IS Sedan. All i'm realisitcally expecting Lexus to do is to at least put up a good/stern challenge to the new M3 & current RS4. Somethings Lexus will do better and others the Audi or BMW will do better, but its going to be about the overall package. Audi will probably still be the fastest car around a track given its a 4WD, the M3 would probably be still the purists car and most fun to drive and the Lexus will be a seriously quick luxury sedan and probably the more luxurious out of the 3. Who knows....BRING ON THE IS500

lolol love the adding part for formula1. i mite as well buy a renault. i thought u were going to be quiet but instead u ramble on.

Is it really important who builds the most powerful car here? Most luxury cars these days are already OVERPOWERED, so much that we have the nerve to call 6 second 0-60 times "underpowered".

I for example don't see the point of cars like the BMW 760Li or MB S600. I really don't. Prestige aside, they waste more fuel than a 730d or S320 CDI needs to go from A to B. Given, the choice, I'd glady give up more power and go for the more realistic choice. Yes, I realize the people buying them have the money and don't care about the costs, but even if I had the cash, I'd never get one out of principle. I'd love to testdrive one, but I wouldn't want to own it.

Let's be completely honest here for a second. A 760Li WILL NOT get you faster from A to B just because it has more power. Factor in things like speed limits, traffic etc. and you're literally burning more gas to get there than you would in a 730d for example.

The horsepower wars were interesting when they first appeared, but now, with rising fuel costs, they're just becoming more ridiculous.

I think its incredibly dumb that Lexus would say that they are not going to get pulled into the horsepower war. Isn't the reason why they are sticking a V8 into the IS because of this "horsepower war". By saying that they are implying they don't want to spend the money to increase the power, which is why Lexus will never create a drivers car worth a damn.

Toyota and Honda, amongst other Japanese automakers, had been building fuel efficient non-descript allbeit reliable little people haulers for decades. The image of the Japanese car and the class of customers they were after was of no concern to the Germans, that is until 1990 or so......when everything changed.

The Acura Legend, the Lexus LS, the Nissan 300ZX, the Infiniti and the Mazda Miata ushered in an assault on the automotive world from every angle. In less than a decade the Japanese have cornered a large part of the Luxury segment (Lexus, Infiniti), the sports/sporty car segment (Miata, 350Z, RX-8, Acura), made significant inroads into the ultra Sport/exotic car segment (NSX, Supra, RX-7 and the soon to be unleashed Nissan GT-R, New Supra, Lexus LF-A,etc.).

Ther Germans who had been very comfortably perched at the top of the automotive world had to take notice.

The Japanese are coming....no, they are here and are making further inroads into the hallowed grounds of the BMW Ms and the AMGs. The IS500 is the first serious salvo that the world's largest and most profitable car company is firing at a long established German tradition of stuffing a powerful engine into a medium to small sized sedan. If history is to be taken seriously, and it should be, Toyota/Lexus have a tradition of excellence and of doing what it takes to be a real contender. The IS350 is a vast improvement over the IS300. The ISxxx, has already taken a significant market share away from the BMW 3 series and the MB C class. I believe, the IS500 will make further and very significant inroads in the direction that will take Toyota towards producing not only the world's most reliable transportation, but also some of the most interesting and fun to drive.

The LF-A will make this point with an exclamation when it arrives in a couple of years. The target of that super car will not be BMW or MB, it will be Porsche and Ferrari.

The Japanese are coming. This is the kind of competition that benefits us automobile lovers. This gives us the choice and broadens the scope of what is available either to own or to just enjoy reading about.
Long live variety and competition and I salute the Japanese to have the vision and courage to shake things up once again.

All in favor of switching this conversation over from a HP war to a Torque curve war, say AYE!

AYE!

German Torque "Curve":

_-------------------------------------_

Can't ask for much more out of an engine then that :)

"The ISxxx, has already taken a significant market share away from the BMW 3 series and the MB C class."

The aging C lass sells more units in one month than the yearly sales of the IS in 2005.

The IS500 is a joke. Lexus will need a lot more than 380 hp to compete against the big boys.

The new C63 will wipe the floor with that POS.

"Mercedes’ new-generation C class will be available in C 63 AMG guise with the firm’s sophisticated 6.3-litre V8, capable of pumping a massive 520 bhp but likely to be tamed to around 400 to 420 bhp for the compact saloon."

This car will be unreal. All you need is a chip or flash to unleash all those German stallions.

It's highly doubtful that the IS 500 will stand a chance against the BMW M3, C-Class AMG, and Audi S/RS4. What I find interesting is Lexus constantly tring to compare itself to the German Car Companies. It's seems has though they are afraid to go their own way to make a name for them selves. It like Lexus and other Japanese car companies are okay with sloppy seconds.

You guys crack me up, its either Japanese are crap or German cars are crap. I think each make has its engineering philosophy and its rarely the case when one can say objectively that one is better than others.

Germans have been making cars longer than the Japanese, they make great premium cars. That doesn't stop Lexus, Infiniti or Acura from being great premium cars either, in fact, for many consumers, they percieve it to be better.

Motorsports history? You're looking at Nring24s and Euro-centric competitions. Look what Honda did with mclaren in F1, Toyota in Lemans (ok, no real victory but the technical superiority was obvious) as well as WRC, Mitsu & subaru in WRC also, Mazda in Lemans... The scarce attempts the Japanese (works or private) teams have made an attempt at challenging european motorsports, they've done a relatively good job. There are no american or european success in the JApanese racing scene. Let's not even mention the american motosports scene here. If you go to Cologne in Germany where TOyota motorsport is based, virtually the vaste majority of the F1 operations are European...

Comparing HP is nice, but thats just magazine racing, there's alot more to a car's performance than horsepower figure.

and if you think Lexus will launch an "IS500" with "only" 380hp, you in for a surprise guys...

Ben55 and company
you are facing a brick wall.

Toyota has a lot of resources at their disposal and believe you me, they will do the unthinkable.

In reference to motorsport history, Toyota domintaded the WRC in the early nineties long before the likes of Subaru came into the fray.

The Japanese and other nations will keep on coming and coming until you'll think you are dreaming.

Since the beggining of time no nation has ever been dominant forever, things change and the balance will continue to shift somewhere else. We dont know maybe someday the Iceland will be dominant in Carmaking.

Ben55 and company your German ship will sink Someday. Trust me you do not know what you are up against.

Yeah yeah....I've heard that one before.

Toyota F1 program $400 million x 5 years = $2 Billion

Toyota's $2 Billion investment =ZERO WINS and a bunch of LAWSUITS for INDUSTRIAL ESPIONAGE.

NICE WORK TOYOTA.

How many recalls did they have this year? Maybe they should invest the 2 Billion toward quality control, so that their steering wheels don't fall off while driving.

One thing is correct though. High horsepower per liter isn't always the best way to go. This is because the amount of torque is so much lower. A driver would have to keep the rpm high all the time. A car with equable amounts of torque and horsepower will provide a better driving experience, because the driver isn't stressing the engine in the high rpms all the time to get power. VTEC and VVT-i's have this problem, one has to rev it high to get it to go. But the cars are fuel efficient (not that fuel efficiency is something that matters in performance vehicles).

Let's compare power between the new Camry and the 330i:

$24,000 Camry: 268hp, 248lb/ft, EPA 22/31, 0-60: 6.4
$38,000 330i: 255hp, 220 lb/ft, EPA 21/29, 0-60: 6.7

Toyota is winning the HP wars on their basic family sedan, that's pretty sad.

stop the hp wars, I already proved lexus/toyota lost. Quizz, you cannot just pick random cars...

"Since the beggining of time no nation has ever been dominant forever, things change and the balance will continue to shift somewhere else."

"Ben55 and company your German ship will sink Someday. Trust me you do not know what you are up against."

Roman Empire was there for 1000 years. I know its not forever, but I'm willing to take 1000 years... hell, I'm even willing to take 300 years like many other empires... Egyptian Old,Middle,New Kingdom, 3000 years... No nation is forever, but I'm willing to take anywhere from 200 - 3000 years

Ben 55

"The aging C lass sells more units in one month than the yearly sales of the IS in 2005."

Still doesn't justify that the C Class is a POS

LexusAdmirer... BMW-Sauber is 1 years old. btw, if you are happy with 4th place, than perhaps you should consider upping your standards... No excuses for BMW, but Toyota did not win either, did they. That makes them both losers of 1 GP. But why are you so concerned with 1 GP?

00JT... stats v. preference... facts v. opinion...Apparently, the C-class drivers don't seem to think its a POS...

Anyone hear that Mercedes officially announced that they were comming out with the S Class hybrid in 08?

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=116150

They say their system runs very similar to the Honda insight. Won't be a competitor to the LS600hL.

Jovi

Depends how you look at it, Mercedes redesigns a car every 8-10 years. Mercedes fans think it's because Mercedes age gracefully, other people think they're just being lazy. However have you noticed that Mercedes redesigns their cars about 2 years ahead of schedule ever since Lexus came out in the 80's?

8-10 years you are talking about is about the SL and S Klasse... The C-Klasse redesigns every 5-7 years, with a midlife facelift... Don't get me wrong, Lexus are good cars, as with Audi, But they are not yet up to the leagues of BMW and MBs in Status and Image (I drive an Audi). But both are making strides ahead...

JT,
FYI, the C and IS were both introduced in 2001. The IS stopped production in 05. The C will continue until 07 (40% longer production). The 6 year old C class sells more units in one month the yearly sales of the IS in 2005.

If the C class is a POS what does that make your IS?

A shorter production run is just a sign of our times. Everybody these days wants the latest technology. Nobody wants to drive an old car.

BTW, did you watch those MB videos of the 16 year old TE?
Remember when you questioned the FACT that 80% of MBs sold in US since the 50s are still on the road?
Well there is your proof. Lexus can only dream of building a car like that.

Maybe you can write to 5th gear and ask them to do the same test with an ES250, if they can find one....what a POS. The monster truck would flatten it like a pancake.

Munich ROb, again check the facts. THe Bmw V8 version does have more hp, but look at the 0-60 times. 5.2 seconds for an automatic Gs450h. Bmw gets only 5.4 secs in manual smg. So therefore, the GS, even though with less power, can still beat the top 5 series in a drag race

OH again i forgot to add, therefore, in the entry level segment with the IS, lexus is in the lead, with the mid size car, lexus is in the lead, pretty soon, lexus will be in the lead with everything...just takes time

Here is a site, created by a Mercedes Benz owner, that lists THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of problems that dissatisfied MB owners report on.

Check it out.....shows clearly the POS that MB has become.:-(

http://www.mercedesproblems.com/

Ben,

Please, are we about to go down that road again about that stupid comment that was basically a play on words?

Then go ahead and drive your 10 year old design C Class, while I drive my latest design from Lexus. What idiot would compare a POS 10 year old design to a new car? I just laugh every single time you mention that and you think your so proud of Mercedes.

"Maybe you can write to 5th gear and ask them to do the same test with an ES250, if they can find one....what a POS. The monster truck would flatten it like a pancake."

WTF wouldn't a monster truck flatten any car like a Pancake? Please you'll have to do better than that next time.

JT,
You obviously didn't watch the videos. Go watch the videos and come back.

Lexus can only dream of making cars like that.

Lexuskindaguy12... how is lexus in the lead? also, how do you explain R&T's 550i beating a GS450h? Thats strange isn't it...

can someone explain how a magazine with good reputation can come to such a result...

Answer: thats because a BMW is better...duh

Anyways, this is about IS500 v. M3 v. S/RS4 v. C-Klasse AMG. Dont make it any more than it needs to be. All great cars, but:

1. M3 (e92 version)
2. RS4
3. C63
4. IS500

OMg, these threads on forums and on this site are just getting "bleh". Its all preference, leave it at that, all im saying Jovi is that the Gs450h can outrun the BMW 550i...thats it! Personally i have not been in either car, therefore i cannot say which is better, we're talking about power here.

Great. More pointless arguments about the "faster car being better". Only kids think like that.

550i v. GS450h

sorry, R&T says it cant, so I say it cant... Car magazine says it cant, so I say it cant...

You are right, you do not know anything about F1. or racing... Lemme teach you... 4th place Honda, 5th place Toyota, and 6th place BMWs, none of them are winners... 2nd place ferrari, and 3rd place Mercedes, they are not winners either... so I dunno why who ever brought in F1 brought it in...

Also, NSX, its not exclusive, its just that nobody will buy a 90K Honda. and 4.8, 911 Carrera is faster, and handles better... Much better ride than a Ferrari? thats opinionated... but a 911 Carrera is faster... top speed of 175? wow... I supposed you are going to put that in Super Car territory huh?

What else do you want in performance? how fast does the engine start? How fast does it take for the volume to go up when you hit the volume up button or tell it to?

Ben,

Never saw those videos, would love to see them if you had a link. But judging from your previous comments, if that video was some kind of documentary about a 16 year old Mercedes, then save it. There are many Toyotas that will outlast 16 years. BTW do you think white collar people that often buy Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes keep their car for 16 years? Very rarely... I may not be a billionaire but I can tell you I only keep cars for 4-6 years, 6 years max.

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bIV_hHPAFQ

There are 4 parts to the video.

I'm just trying to imagine a 16 year old ES250 going through the same. It would die after the basball bat beating…lol

I think you all are forgetting the most basic and head on point here, toyata = $$$ they will do whatever they want. If you have ever driven a lexus, you will understand that their engines are near perfect, and far higher quality than both mb and bmw. They are flawless and smooth on a level that the germans can't come close to. They are also years ahead in technology, so you also get the mpg bonus.

Lexusadmirer,

If you don't follow F1 you should do a lot more research before replying. BMW was partnered with Williams before and has won a lot of races. Something Toyota can only dream about.
This year BMW decided to go on their own and bought the old Sauber Petronas team. It will take a while for them to start winning again.

Stop trying to compare Toyota to another team. There is no excuse for Toyota's present situation in F1. Nobody in the history of motor sports has ever had so much money for so long without getting a SINGLE WIN.

Ben,

The link you gave me was a "private video." I cannot view it without the owners permission.

On the other hand I could show you the Top Gear test they performed on the Toyota Hilux. No Mercedes would be able to stand up to the amount of punnishment they put the Hilux to.

I'm just trying to imagine a 16 year old Mercedes going through the same thing. It wouldn't have even lasted the first test (crashing into as many things as possible including cement objects and trees).

JT,

The guy made the videos private. Try this link:
http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Jul06/19_Mercedes_W124_E_Class_Quality_Test.html

Hilux? Don't make me laugh. The G class would eat it alive.

Ben,

Basically what that video said was old Mercedes were better than the new ones. Hey guess what I think so too, new Mercedes are crap, especially quality wise.

1. What did the baseball bat test proove? That you could make some dents if you hit a Mercedes with a baseball bat? Hello it's called common sense.

2. They spent one afternoon at that test track? Please bumpy roads are not a problem for Lexus'. You of all people should know that.

Would love to see the rest of that video.

When they completely submerge a Mercedes in the ocean, blow it off a 50 story building, set it on fire, or crush it with a trailer and still be able to run, then I'll give you some credit. Until then all you can give me is tit for tat about the G Class.

this is for every lexus/toyota fan. Toyota beat BMW in the french grand prix coz THIS IS THE 1ST YEAR FOR THE TEAM and never in history of any sports a team won on their 1st year. And BTW this is the 1st race in the season that toyota beats BMW. If u watch F1 like me u will know that toyota had reliability problems all season and NEVER finshed with both their drivers. thats a shame since toyota is a japanese automaker. Toyota had many engine falures this season unlike BMW which had only 1. The reason toyota is trying to make luxury sedans to compete with the germans is because they r losing the war against other japanese companies. toyota recalled more vehicles this year more than all other jap. companies together. TOYOTA IS GOING NOWHERE!

The point of the video was to show how much abuse a 16 year old MB can take. Anybody can take a brand new car to the test track.
There is a reason why 80% of MBs sold in the US are STILL ON THE ROAD.
Are you going to try to convince us that an ES250 would be able to do the same? yeah right maybe in your dreams.
Put a brand new Toyota under that 4 ton monster truck and it would get crushed like a Miller can.

Have you seen a 16 year old Toyota/Lexus lately? Baseball size rust holes all over the body, tail lights held together by colored tape, misaligned body panels, sagging doors, interiors that look worse than the interior of that MB after they threw in the hand grenade.

When you show me a similar video with Toylex or when a taxi driver hits 2.8 MILLION MILES in a Toylex then we can continue this discussion.

Aside from HP/Torque/Price/0-60 can't we all just simply enjoy the technology all these manufacturers bring out to us car crazed maniacs?. In the end of the day does it really matter who has the fastest car when the cars competition is already really fast respectively?

MB, BMW, Lexus, Inifiniti all came a long way. Some running for a shorter period of time than others but made big leaps to get to where they are now. The new M45 looks beautiful compared to the old Infinitis. The old Lexus look nothing like the ones being built today. It goes the same to Mercedes and BMW's.

It's great debate though fellas. Lots to be learned and argue on and it's all fair game to all of you. Like I said in the end of the day it doesn't matter who has the fastest motor. We're all lucky to even be driving. Have you seen the people in poverty in US/Canada/Africa and some parts of the world??

Feel fortunate that you can afford such premium cars.

Ben,

Oh please, you know you've seen that top gear test of the Toyota Hilux. But since you asked for it here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD0UVI99R8Q&search=Toyota%20Hilux%20Top%20Gear

Come back when you find something remotely as tough as the Hilux. We'll talk then

Ben55
You are extremely ignorant, I bet you have never been out of America. If you have maybe you've only been to Europe.

In my line of work I travel a lot, Ive been to almost every corner of the world Asia,Africa,Europe,Australia and South America.

Yes Mercedes and BMW are good cars and companies, but some of your comments are really shocking, no 16 year old Lexuses and Toyotas you must be joking.

Do you know the Toyota hilux and Land Crusiser.These vehichles have lengendary status in most countries Ive been to, they are renouned for being robust and unbreakable especially in the roughest terrains in the world and Ive seen corrolas, cressidas,Hiluxes,Land Cruisers, Camrys etc. that are older than your ignorant self can imagine. Ive seen first generation Lexuses especially the LS400 that run as if they are new.(not implying that Toyota is the only brand that cars that that can last longer than 16 years)

Got to the deserts in Africa and the Middle East. What do you find mostly? Land Rovers, Land Cruisers Lexus LX'S, Hiluxes and many other brands. I am yet to see an X5 OR an MB ML. I think you get my point.

No offence to the German brands, I own one Myself (ML 500 which is a pleasure to drive) and previously a BMW 320D, which was a pain in the A!S for me beacuse it was extremely badly engineered went to the dealer 4 times (blown turbo twice) within 25000 km , I replaced it with a lexus IS250 and I am a very happy man.

Lexus Is only 20 yaers old and it revolutionised the luxury market and they are coming out strong now with more models and a global assault, you must be very worried because if were not then you would not be waisting you time on this blog trying show us how ignorant you are.They will eventually outsmart the Status QUO.

That is why toyota is going strong and strong, eventually it is the consumers who decide on whether the most influential auto company in the world becomes number 1 or not.For now you will keep on huffing and puffing until your brain busts, you will not stop them.

The reason I hear some noise about hp is because the japanese have finally started figuring how to get some hp in their cars...which means that their latest cars are now coming close to the hp in German cars that were built 3/4 years ago. As an fyi..HP numbers alone mean nothing except perhaps a marketing gimmick for the uneducated so lets look at just a few points that make a car complete.

Styling - As a group, Japanese cars are ugly or bland across the board and lexus leads this notoriety with mindnumbing designs. Some of the Infinity designs actually look more interesting

Handling /performance - Lexus is the worst of all the japanese imitation Luxury econoboxes.. Compared to the S class, A8 and 7 Series, the LS430 handles like a school bus, and the GS450 supposedly the Lexus sports car gets 60mph through the slalom. What a joke..that's the same as a typical minivan (for example the Odyssey) and almost 3mph's slower than some SUVs. For ex. the Touareg..

Feedback to driver - None..although Honda when serious can actually do a half-way decent here

Brand Heritage - None - basically luxury bootlegged

knock-offs with leather nav and some marketing gimmicks

Innovation - None..mantra copy everything you can.
and that includes Germans and other Japanese cars - 100%..See new LS600h as an example.
Lets face it..Even if Lexus improved styling, handling etc and actually became a real competitor as opposed to a cheap-luxury (oxymoron) alternative, real luxury buyers still wouldn't touch because "real" luxury encompasses brand heritage not just leather seats and navigation.. I'll give you some perspective.. Today Hyundai, and Kia and making cars that compete well with Honda, Toyota, but are cheaper. In a few years time, they'll certainly come out with a Luxury car and some people will buy them. Are you going to be one of them???

JT,
Thanks for proving my point. Did you see those huge rust holes on the hilux? How about the pathetic interior?

What did your video prove? That a truck with a solid chassis can take more abuse than a regular car I'd like to see that test with a Toyota car or wagon. They wasted a lot time in the video. All they had to do was drive a G class through it.

Lexusadmirer,

Toyota engineering is so great that you don't even see those trucks anymore. How many did they make? How many are still around?

Toyota engineering is so great that they can't win a single F1 grand prix with a $2 BILLION investment over 5 years.

Toyota engineering is so great they had to recall over 2 MILLION cars this year.

Toyota engineering is so great they have to rip ideas from the Germans.

Ben,

No Mercedes would be able to withstand the punnishment Top Gear put the Hilux through. A good chassis and a reliable engine are key ingredients of a good car.

Tests such as hitting a car with a baseball bat or driving over bumpy roads for a couple of hours prove nothing.

BTW I'm still waiting for the video that proves that the G Class is even a fraction as tough as the Hilux.

KeyserSoze,
Spare me the Toylex speech. I've been to most parts of the world.
Your speech is worthless without percentages. A company that makes Millions of cars is bound to have a few good apples.
Use your brain a little bit. Do you have any idea how many old Toyota's would be on the road if their 20 year survival rate was at least 10%? Our streets would be flooded with old cars. Where the hell are all of those great cars?
They are at the junkyard being recycled. I would know since my father's business partner just got a huge contract to export junk cars from Micronesia. It's a huge environmental problem on small islands. 90% of the cars sold are Japanese and 99.9% that are being junked are Japanese.

At least I have numbers to back up my claim. 80% of MBs SOLD IN THE US SINCE THE LATE 50s ARE STILL REGISTERED AND BEING DRIVEN.

A taxi driver from Greece demolished the WORLD RECORD for most miles on a car. He put 2.8 MILLION MILES ON his MB taxi. The previous record was not even half of that. No, it wasn't a Toyota it was a Volvo. Before that it was another MB, which was the first car over 1 Million.
The point I'm trying to make is that Toyota produced 10s of MILLIONS OF CARS, which you guys claim to be so great and indestructible, but none of those cars has ever seen 1 Million miles. What's your excuse?

Lexus only does well in the US. We act as if we are smarter than the rest of the world. WOW...we discovered this great bargain. If the cars are so great why did they have to invent the Lexus name?
A gimmick that only works on stupid people. How many $80k Toyotas would they sell without the Lexus name?
What if Hyundai made up some luxury name and started competing against the big boys? You guys would laugh at the idea. Toyota did it why not Hyundai? We are stupid enough, so it should work.

You guys crack me up. Even the wealthy Japanese are turning to the Germans. Let me guess all of you are smart and the wealthy Japanese are just stupid. Right?

JT,
You must have missed the part when the engine was TURNED ON and DRIVEN into water, or the part when the 4 ton monster truck tried to run over it, or when they threw the hand grenade inside the interior, or when they set the whole car on fire, or when they shot it with the cannon, etc.
BTW, those roads and speed bumps are designed to simulate thousands of miles.

My friend drove his Tacoma through water. Guess what happened? The engine locked up and the insurance totaled it (bent rods).

Ben,

Obviously... link you gave me only showed two tests. Baseball bat and bumpy road test. Where's the rest?

The Hilux would have withstood the water test. If you didn't notice they completely submerged the Hilux in the ocean with 4-6 foot waves. The crew wasn't even sure if they would be able to find it because the chain that was keeping the Hilux tied to land broke. But they found it, and the Hilux was still in running condition

The Hilux would have withstood the monster truck. Top Gear crushed the Hilux with a trailer and it was still able to start up and drive.

The Hilux would have withstood the fire, Top Gear already performed that test, maybe you weren't paying close attention.

They blew up a 50 story building with the Hilux on top of it. After they found the Hilux through the rubble and remains of the building it was still able to run.

Your friends Tacoma must be in pretty bad conditions. I've taken my 4Runner through water that was over 2 feet high and it just drove right through it.

BTW I'm still waiting for that video that proves the G Class is even even a fraction as tough as the Hilux.

Can you point out where I stated that the Japanese are stupid? You should learn how to read.

JT,
It's the same link:
http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Jul06/19_Mercedes_W124_E_Class_Quality_Test.html

Just scroll down if you want to watch the rest.

FYI, anybody can submerge an old car (engine off) that doesn't have modern electornics, dry everything out and start it.
I'd like to see them try with the engine running.

Ben55

A 20 year old Land Cruiser is more robust than anything you have from Germany, I have seen it before in reality not from some website.
I told you, you have never been out of America hence Your Ignorance.

Get yourself a passport and travel,dont just go to Europe. Go to Australia, Mid East, Africa. You will see exactly what I am talking about, not the ignorant/insulting (calling people stupid) statements you are posting here.

Lexus has only unveiled their global strategy this year and there are a lot of countries where lexus does not have a presence in the world, they have previously only focused on the American market. They are planning a Global assualt in the next ten years or so.They will most certainly take away some market share from your beloved German brands.

Ben,

1. Water Test: LOL they put this thing in 2 feet of water and you think it's tougher than completely submerging a car in salt water for hours with 4-6 foot waves? This is nothing compared to what they put the Hilux through.

2. Monster Truck Test: If you recall the Hilux also started up after they crushed it with a trailer. Top of that the truck didn't run over the engine wheras the trailer pretty much fell on the Hilux evenly (including the engine bay).

3. Bomb Test: While I must admit this was somewhat impressive, it doesn't compare to putting a car on top of a 50 story building and then blowing up the building. Remember after Top Gear performed the building demolishion test, the Hilux was still able to run. They were able to drive the Hilux into the studio.

JT,
If you knew anything about engines you would know that there is a big difference between an engine that was submerged while running and one that was submerged while it was off.

The trailer was so small and light. They are designed to be as light as possible for towing. That size trailer is under 1 ton. Not even close to a 4 TON monster truck. Did you notice that they couldn't even open the doors after they dropped that little trailer on it?
I wonder which of the two would you choose to be in during a big accident.
The building test was a gimmick. Anybody that has some understanding of physics knows that the truck would never survive by dropping it straight from the top.
By putting it on top of the building you are doing two things a) decreasing the travel distance b) decreasing the velocity of the fall
Most cars would survive that test. They might not all be drivable, but most will be able to start the engine.

KeyserSoze,

Toyota's are so great and robust that they can't reach 1 Million miles...lol

Let me know when your Land Cruiser does this:

http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/gossip/moonandback-mercedes-donated-by-greek-taxi-driver-119256.php

Lexusadmirer,
That's an awful short list you got there. I'm not sure, but I think the auto parking was from Volvo.
That leaves one reshaped air bag to fit your face better and the addition of ONE gear to the auto trans...WOW
Is that all we can expect from the great Toyota engineers?

Ben,

If you drove a car through water and the engine shut off, all you have to do is pump the water out of the engine and any good car will be up and running again. Couple years ago my buddies and I went to the river, We took my friends Ford F-150. While launching the boat he lost traction on the ramp and the entire truck went into the lake with the engine running. It was eventually towed out and taken to a local machanic where after hours of pumping out water, the truck managed to start. Submerging a car in the ocean with 4-6 foot waves for hours is a different story, but the Hilux still managed to start up.

Trailers are more than 1 ton, unless your talking about the U-haul trailers. But that wasn't a U-haul trailer, it was more of an RV. I'm going to guess it weighs a hair under three tons. In any case the car was crushed evenly whereas the mosnter truck only ran over the cabin of the Mercedes, not the engine bay.

While I must admit that blowing up a building with a car on top vs dropping a car 50 stories high is different, the Top Gear test still proved the amount of punnishment the engine was able to take. Can you imagine the tons of rubble that was on top of the Hilux before they found it. And when they did Top Gear was still able to drive the Hilux into their studio.

Ben,

If I may cut in to your chat with Lexusadmirer:

The innovations Lexusadmirer mentioned are strictly from Lexus, not Toyota. Keep in mind Lexus is only 17 years old.

Dual Chamber Airbags
Auto Park
8 Speed Tranny

That comes out to 1 invention every 5-6 years... not bad.

Ben,

Correction auto park debut in the Prius. Make that 1 invention every 7-9 years.

Ben55,

Give it a rest!

OOJT & KeyserSoze,
Ben 55 is right on the mark, you mentioned 3 inventions after 20 years, but let me address them with "real" facts.

1) The first car to have self-park was the VW Futura in 1991. The germans didn't bring it to market mostly because they thought it could be litigous especially in the US, but fast forward to 2006 and Lexus invented it? Clueless is all I can say!! clueless. See link below: and note the date of the article which shows a demonstration in central park new york in 1992

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1430/is_n12_v14/ai_12516738

Also, please look at the "dictonary of automotive terms" under self-park which actually mentions the VW as part of the definition of self park.. Wake up guys, wake up!!!!

http://100megsfree4.com/dictionary/car-dics.htm

2) Invented 8 speed tranny!! That's bull. Trucks, trailers and schools buses have had 10 or more gears for years..and that's nothing new or spectacular, and the reason they do..is to ensure good power deliverally so the ratios tend to be close.. is the LS460H a truck?? This is the exactly reason I say Lexus is full of Gimmicks. Can you tell me exactly what the benefit of having 8 gears is? Adding another cog to a car that's likely to be doing only 155 tells me its either the engineers don't know how to make the transmission work well with 5, 6 or 7 or it is gimmick, I'll vote for the latter..I would like to really get into the benefits of 8 speed tranny, but can't do it in this forum. Perhaps the last gear is super tall to save on fuel, but you could do that with a 7 speed too so it adds no value expect marketing bull. Even a 250mph car like the Veyron has seven gears, but I can bet my last dime that no one body complains about its power delivery ha ha..
Guys, an invention is something someone hasn't done before not a hand me down from a school bus or 18 wheeler.. and by the way it helps if the invention adds real value not just marketing crap.. I can weld a statue to the roof of a car and claim the first car with a statue on top, but what does that mean or perhaps I'll rip off the loud horn from an 18 wheeler stick it on my car and then claim its the first car with a loud horn????. I'm still wiating to hear of a "real" invention not another bootlegged crap..

3) swivelling headlamps?? The Citroen DM & SM had that in the late 60s and early 1970s..yes 40 years ago.

Ben 55, With regards to traveling, I've been to many countries in all continents except Australia. What more I;ve worked in Europe, Africa, US And Japan and travel out of the country at least 4 times every year. If that's not enough, growing up, we had homes in Europe, US and even Africa so I can give you some perspective..

The only part of the world, people care about Lexus is in the US. Period.
In germany, the top brands are Audi, BMW and Benz in that order. Lexus is not even on the Radar
In Japan, Its MB, Audi and BMW.

In most places I've been to in Africa,

Continued..

In most places I've been to in Africa, its Benz by far, then BMW, Audi and Lexus

In China, Its Audi, Benz and BMW

Look even the Japanese don't want to touch the Lexus because they all know its really a Toyota econobix dressed up for a black-tie dinner. See links below..they only achieved 50% of their low 20,000 car sales late last year in Japan.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/feb2006/bw20060215_597701.htm

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006061


I'll do you a favor and tell you the only innovation Toyota/Lexus has come up with since inception: Its the application of excellent processes to their manufacturing process producing fewer defect and taking advantge of JIT (just in time inventory) to reduce wait time. Now I wouldn't go into how the process was created..think.. Ed Demmings, but the bottomline is that they have it and it works well, but as for producing long lasting cars, I'll save that for another time but forget it. I can write more, but see the link below for yourself

http://www.businessweek.com/print/globalbiz/content/jul2006/gb20060710_991925.htm

I'm going to back up Mercedes-Benz here because there seem to be a lot of ignorant posters here claiming that Toyota's are the only cars that last forever.

I've been to North Africa before, and what did I see? A lot of those Mercedes' they call W123. An Albanian friend of mine also told me that this W123 model was very popular in his country when communism came down. It was the only car capable of handling and surviving the poorly constructed roads according to him. And he had one, so he should know.

While on vacation in Syria a few years ago, my wife and I saw that they were still using Mercedes' that were made in the 1950s and 1960s. Now that's impressive. I've also heard that in South America, there are still a lot of Mercedes' from the '50s, '60s and '70s etc. And I too read about that diesel Mercedes' taxi with 4.2 million kilometers on the odometer. Impressive, to say the least.

There is also a 230E W123 in Singapore with 1.7 million kilometers on it with the original engine and transmission. Someone posted a link to it on Car And Driver.

Yes, Toyota has excellent cars and no doubt exists that they will last long, given proper car and usage (like every car).

So, my point? There are many Mercedes' out there that are still running. Those of you promoting Toyota, stop the friggin bias and give credit where credit is due. Áll I am hearing here are stupid comments like "Toyota is the ONLY company that can make a car that will last over 16 years...". Huh? What? Kia can make a car that will last over 16 years now for crying out loud. Every carmaker can make a car that can last well past 16 years. Stop this incredible biased bullshit already. Jesus Christ....

20 year old Land Cruiser is more robust than anything you have from Germany, I have seen it before in reality not from some website.
----------------------------------

Stop the crap. Seriously, stop it. There were only three SUV's in the 1970s and 1980s that were worth mentioning:

1) Toyota Landcruiser
2) Mercedes G-Class
3) Range Rover

Of these, the Mercedes and the Toyota had the best build quality and reliability by far. So your claim that the Toyota Landcruiser is bla bla shows your ignorance and your bias towards Toyota. Be objective and cut the crap.

Many of you are making stupid comments without examing the facts or thinking for a second.

1) European luxury brands cary a lot more prestige, even in Japan. When someone there makes money or has money to spend, he wants to spend it on something with prestige. I've been to Japan many times, a Mercedes is the most prestigeous of all German luxury cars over there for example. BMW is highly respected and sought, and Audi is the rising star. Jaguar is so-so. Lexus? No.

Furthermore, Lexus offers "American luxury" in Japan. That means a big V8 or V6 which even the rich in this market might not want because of expensive engine size taxes. There is a similar situation in Europe. The Germans offer a 6-cylinder S-Class or 7-Series in Japan. Lexus doesn't even have a 6-cylinder LS. There is an SL350 in Japan, under the SL500 and the AMG's. Lexus only has the SC430. Engine choices can make a difference in sales. A huge difference.

2) Lexus is flopping in Europe. From my observations and reading, Lexus is doing badly because again, they're offering American luxury in Europe, which doesn't fly. Europeans want smaller engines because of the taxes over there. They want diesels, and the IS220d has not been very impressive as I recently found out. The BMW and C-Class diesels walked over it with greater refinement and response, according to the review.

Now please Toyota-Lexus fanboys, stop telling us that the IS220d has the best diesel engine in the world and that it is smooth etc. YOU HAVE NOT DRIVEN IT, SO DON'T BOTHER TALKING. I've driven Audi A4, BMW 3-Series and MB C-Class diesels. I've rented enough cars there to have gotten a feel for them. I've been impressed with all of them, especially the BMW 3-Series diesels (no bias intended). Audi and MB were great too BTW.

3) Lexus (and other Japanese) cars are generally cheaper here because they're either manufactured in the US, or because the Japanese buy tons of our Dollars to keep their currency artifically weak against the Dollar, and hence make their products cheaper. Like I've said before, this is an UNFAIR TRADE practice. So next time someone says, "Japanese cars are so much cheaper, the Europeans are screwing us...", shut up, and think about what I just said. UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES. Furthermore, the Euro has been very competitive against our Dollar. Enough said.

And I am not ranting against the Japanese in my post, but I have to be harsh considering all the idiotic posts from some of the posters here.

The Genius,

You make it sound like all Lexus did was take their existing 6 speed and just slap on two more gears. The addition of an 8 speed in the end is to make the car more efficient. This car would probably do fine with a 6 speed tranny, but then again why does Mercedes need a 7 speed?

Like what huu76 said Lexus has only been on sale in Japan for 1 year. Otherwise they sell more "luxury Toyotas" than both Mercedes and BMW. Lexus needs atleast 1 decade before they can overtake their rivals in sales. They only needed one decade in the US.

I was busy yesterday, but I'm glad the Genius set you ladies straight.

I read somewhere that VW was toying around with self park during the 70s, but I couldn't find any hard evidence.

The problem with you ladies is that you watch too many BS Lexus commercials. They are masters at marketing, especially in the US. Every single commercial they make makes you believe they invented everything.

For example the one where the car is so smart in recognizes the owner. Guess what? MB had Keyless go since 2000. Lexus is about 5-6 years late for that party. I have Keyless go in my 03.

Lexusadmirer,
Touch screen is not an invention. Touch screen might be very cool and all, but it is actually very impractical and dangerous when driving. I know because I have a Garmin Nuvi for my older cars.

Knee airbags-another German first. They only thing Lexus did was to offer it in the IS which was a first for it's class.

Huu76,
Last time I checked cars are not designed for off roading. Nobody can touch MB's G class and Unimog when it comes to off roading, so spare me the Land Cruiser speech.

8 speed tranny is not an invention. When MB made the 7 it was never called an invention. It might have been a first and innovative when it comes to shifting characteristics (which I'm sure Toylex ripped apart to study), but nobody ever claimed that it was an invention.

I understand your pain ladies. We all know that Toylex will always be a follower, so you try to grab onto anything and call it an invention (touch screen, 8 speed tranny, hybrid).

Mr Porsche made a hybrid in 1898. The founder of Toylex was still in his pampers.

BMW 530,

Keep in mind you are in a Lexus thread, so there is bound to be many Toyota/Lexus supporters including myself :)

Ignorant posters? How about the German car nuts that have huge egos and come here to bash Lexus products (not you specifically).

"Toyota is the ONLY company that can make a car that will last over 16 years...".

When did anyone say that? If your refering to the conversation I had with Ben, we were talking about a video clip he posted which tested a 16 year old Mercedes. Perhaps you should read into it a bit more next time.

BTW you need to remember Lexus needs time to establish themselves. When Hyundai first started to sell cars in the US they were not doing so well either. Two decades later Hyundai has proven themselves, even the president of Toyota said himself that he is watching Hyundai very closely.

In Japan "luxury Toyotas" outsell BMW and Mercedes. I wonder if its the same in Europe and other parts of the world.

Ben,

"Last time I checked cars are not designed for off roading. Nobody can touch MB's G class and Unimog when it comes to off roading, so spare me the Land Cruiser speech."

Beg to differ. G Class and Unimog are primarily used in Germany. Land Cruisers are used all over the world. They both have a very established name so I'm not going to say which one is the superior until I have some sort of proof.

Anyways we're all a little too caught up on is who invented what. Yea Yea Mercedes has more inventions than Toyota. In the end is that what really drives customers to showrooms? Does the typical customer really care about Mercedes inventing all those nick naks. What really matters is the superior car. How it drives, comfort, value, performance, reliabuilty, safety, etc. Lexus excells in those areas, well maybe they need a little help with "how it drives" in their older models. Otherwise Lexus offers very good competition against primarily Mercedes and BMW.

Its very telling when the Toyota lovers shift the discussion away from the so called inventions when caught with their pants down.. The bottom line is for a car manufacturer as rich as Toyota not to come up with anything authentic is very telling.. The comments of the Toyota top brass at the unveiling of the Lexus 600 tells it all. "this new 8 speed one ups the competition!!" What a joke.. No one ever thought 7- speed was anything but an extra cog, but apparently the guys at Lexus do. The only thing that makes sense is that Lexus is now competing with Tractor trailers and schools buses for gears perhaps because their handling is similar. You don't need to tell me when Lexus started selling in Japan because the link I posted has all that information. And what the hell is a "Luxury Toyota"? Is the Toyota 4.0Gl (former ls400) or the Altezza (IS) Land Cruiser (lx470) Ha ha. Can you tell me how it differs from a Lexus..let me guess the badge! When Kia and Hyundai start selling Luxury cars, I'll save you a front seat to pick up a "Luxury Kia"
Dude, if you want a Louis Vuitton bag, go to 5th Ave and get a Louis Vuitton bag. Don't get the canal street version at a fraction of the price (New Yorkers will know what I'm referring to)

I challenge anyone to tell me the advantage of an 8 speed in a Lexus, and don't give me the marketing garbage from Lexus because I've read it and its garbage just a gimmick.

When I was in Dubai, I saw a ton of Benzes, Porsches, BMW and Audis, and I did see some Lexus SUVs, but speak with the Locals and they'll tell you thet the Germans reign.

Ok yes, there are also a lot of German car fans here who like to spark some arguments etc. Fine, but the bottom line is that all these debates end up as nothing more than flame wars.

On a side note, the G-Class is used by the Canadian Army, various European Armies as well as in a few Asian countries. I am willing to bet that some countries don't buy them because they're quite expensive, obviously.

And price-wise, we cannot compare a Landcruiser to a G-Class. The Landcruiser is still your value-for-money mainstream SUV while the G-Class has matured into a luxury SUV. Both have good off-road qualities, but when a government wants to buy a capable SUV for their armies etc., they'll look at the price etc. Of course the Toyota will win when it comes to that.

So the argument that "various armies or nations prefer to use the Landcruiser over the G-Class because it is better" doesn't make sense and is unfair. Both are great cars, but one of them is more expensive. Period.

Huu76,

I suggest you travel a little more go there and see for yourself, but if your teacher really went to Dubai you may want to ask him what part of town he was in.. Rather than rely on 3rd party stuff, I rely on what I see.. I like your excuse for why the Japanese have not invented anything.."its been done already", and in that same period of time the Germans have come up with truckload of new stuff, and will continue to do so... Lets face it, the Japanese have improved over the past few decades, and they continue to do, but they're still far away in styling,innovation, handling, driving excitement and prestige.

Lexusadmirer, I mentioned economy as a "logical" possibility (read my earlier comments), but again its a marketing gimmick not an innovation.. We've had a number of exchanges, but no one can come up with a just one invention.. sorry I forgeot everything has been invented already... I'd like to see that hybrid clock 40mpg (see top Gear 800mile cruise in the A8 diesel) traveling on a tank that's approx 20gallons..

Listen guys, from a business point of view, the Lexus strategy is a good strategy watch then copy its cheaper and safer, but absolutely not cutting edge.. In addition, that you get no respect from Car Connoisseurs and when you have an image problem only people who can't afford real luxury cars will be a reskinned Toyota..

Take a look at the current road and track, page 20 (Sept 2006 issue) and tell me what you see there. Ha ha.. I rest my case.. Here's a trick question what's the most beautiful Lexus Sedan?

BMW DESIGNS ARE THE BEST: STRIKING, FUTURISTIC, FASHIONABLE, YOUNG MINDED, SPORTY!

You know, all you people who are complaining about BMW's recent design is just jealous of them! BMW is the no.1 luxury car brand in the world and the 3, 5, 7 sold the most cars in its market segment in 2005 worldwide, beating Merc and Audi BY FAR!

So this simply says it, BMW's design is the way the people want it, togather with reliable first class innovation, quality and character, it can be nothing but the choice of sensible and educated buyers! The new 3 Series design is a work of art, look at the sharp front and muscular side, what car in the world can match that??? It is something potent, first and striking. It stands out from the normal cars like Merc and Audi!

That's why BMW's 3 is World car of the year and top 3 for World car design of the year! If you want to moan, why not try the ugly CLS, look what Sh1t it looks like: ugly headlights with an overcurved shoulderline (looks like it has been crashed from front and rear), ugly rear lights, too! Shame, what a piece of TRASH! The other one is the new S class - headlights so dull and fogged, can't they ever come up with something orginal and exciting?

I suppose because they appeal to the almost dead old population, who still think that Merc is a respected brand! I don't even want to get to the snoek fish degin of the Audi grille and the crying taillights of the A4, the sales show! By the way, why did Merc copy the iDrive, bootlid and interior design of the 7 if it was so ugly to some brainless bigmouths? Bangle is King and he should stay! BMW is not BMW without his works of art! Too bad for those who do not like it, you must then close your eyes, but the majority of thsi world loves it and that's what matters. We cannot help it that you lack taste!

huu76,

Ha ha you've shifted from cars to "all" inventions. It may be difficult, but lets try to keep some focus here.. This is "auto" spies now "everything under the sun" spies. Its cars, remember? I like how you move around like a GS450H when cornered..oops sorry when cornering..Anyway, you flunked the question. The most beautiful Lexus Sedan does not exist because beautiful and Lexus are incompatible, but it could..when they find a German car they can copy well...

With regards to page 20, its supposed to be Lexus' flagship expected price approx. $150,000K to compete with top Benzes, Bentley etc.. But what does it look like, A Maybach. Yes, a maybach.. Ha ha.. The new LS460 has the Honda Odyssey front and rear (apparently they copy anyone not just Germans), the seven series side profile and the exhaust pipes from the A8W12, now the new flagship looks like the Maybach.. Sad sad sad!!

Can you tell me when I said I had one of everything in my garage? What do you have in yours..are you a just a mag reader or someone who's actually driven or owned the cars you talk about? Dude, I'm on my 3rd passport soon to move to a 4th so I don't need waste time educating you about where I've been. Travel and see for yourself..as opposed to relying on third parties..

Here's another question, trust me this time its much easier.. What goes through the slalom quicker a GS450h (sports Lexus) or a Honda Odyssey (Minivan)? Please don't flunk this time or my next question will be multiple choice..

24HOJ

It sounds like you are jealous??? Porsche is nothing but a VW as well! What is so good about Lexus??? They cost even more than BMWs and Audis. Lexus is nothing but Toyota! Tap the metal on the side door and you will see why! BMW is the only luxury car company which is independent, stands on its own and successful! Wake Up! Porsche is just another VW!

@ 24HOJ

The Japanese do this. Look it up. You'll probably find something about this on any business site on the web.

And the Germans can charge high prices because THERE ARE WILLING PEOPLE out there WHO WILL PAY THOSE PRICES. Brand image is a very powerful thing, which MB or BMW for example can "exploit". These company's employ "prestige pricing". The customers benefit is that he or she will feel that they bought a product that will give them prestige and recognition.

If Lexus or other luxury carmakers could charge prestige pricing, TRUST ME, they WOULD. Simple marketing, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Let's not forget the strong exchange rate between the Euro and our Dollar, which also makes their products in our market more expensive. If you don't understand this, then you have no right complaining about "expensive" European products.

Furthermore, wages in Western Europe, especially Germany, are expensive. These companies have to pay their workforce somehow don't they?

@ LWKH

Hey kid, give it a rest. Go back to school and learn something. My comments in --> [] <--
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Porsche is nothing but a VW as well! [Wait, I won't bother responding with an intelligent answer to a stupid remark.]

What is so good about Lexus??? They cost even more than BMWs and Audis. Lexus is nothing but Toyota! Tap the metal on the side door and you will see why! [Maybe in the past they used some Toyota bodies, but they now appear to be designing cars specifically for the Lexus division. Lexus are more expensive than Audi's or BMW's? Well LWKH, of course an LS430 will be more expensive than a 318i..., moron.]

BMW is the only luxury car company which is independent, stands on its own and successful! [Anyone else smell bullshit here? What does independence have to do with BMW's greatness? Lexus is a great company, and they're owned or rather "under" the Toyota empire. Acura's are good, but they're made by Honda. LWKH, stop spreading bullshit comments. People like you give us BMW fans a bad name.]

Thanks 24HOJ, just trying my best to put objective comments here on Autospies. ;)

to BMW530i

You call yourself a BMW fan???? Are you not switchinig to Merc E soon? or are you lying?

BMW greatness has everything to do with its independence! It is because they are independent that they are No.1 and so so successful! They are completely in control of what they produce and when and how many.

Whereas all these dependent luxury car brands aare owned by little lower class car brands, forcing them to share parts to help them make more profits! This applies to all the other luxury car brands except BMW!!! Jag and Volvo under Ford, audi under VW, Merc under Chrysler and who would have thought that Lexus is trying to be in the premium car market as well with their Lexus badged Toyota? JOKE! Tap on the doors of the new Lexus, it still sounds like a Toyota! And how can you say "Toyota Empire"? It just doesn't sound right! Crown something with more class, prestige and taste like the BMW Group, not some get around cars of a lower class. It is like comparing humans (BMW) to ants(Toyota). Have you heard of an ant empire?

You all know that I am speaking the truth! That's why you are joining together to say something to convince others that I am wrong.

TheGenius,

RUBBBISH!

Which part of Africa have you been to and BTW you must read carefully before you write anything that is not beffiting to your name.
I wrote the following,"In my line of work I travel a lot, Ive been to almost every corner of the world Asia,Africa,Europe,Australia and South America.

Yes Mercedes and BMW are good cars and companies, but some of your comments are really shocking, no 16 year old Lexuses and Toyotas you must be joking.

Do you know the Toyota hilux and Land Crusiser.These vehichles have lengendary status in most countries Ive been to, they are renouned for being robust and unbreakable especially in the roughest terrains in the world and Ive seen corrolas, cressidas,Hiluxes,Land Cruisers, Camrys etc. that are older than your ignorant self can imagine. Ive seen first generation Lexuses especially the LS400 that run as if they are new.(not implying that Toyota is the only brand that cars that that can last longer than 16 years)

Got to the deserts in Africa and the Middle East. What do you find mostly? Land Rovers, Land Cruisers Lexus LX'S, Hiluxes and many other brands. I am yet to see an X5 OR an MB ML. I think you get my point."

This above is what I wrote. I never said that there were more lexuses than MB's and BMW's in other countries I was talking about other Toyotas and that's a fact, if you read a carefully you would have seen what I wrote.I dont know which Africa you went to, maybe the one in Canada.And in any case Lexus Is rarely sold On the African continent Most that you see, come in the country through some grey importer ussualy buying second hand cars from Asia.


And to BMW530i

20 year old Land Cruiser is more robust than anything you have from Germany, I have seen it before in reality not from some website.
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Stop the crap. Seriously, stop it. There were only three SUV's in the 1970s and 1980s that were worth mentioning:

1) Toyota Landcruiser
2) Mercedes G-Class
3) Range Rover

Of these, the Mercedes and the Toyota had the best build quality and reliability by far. So your claim that the Toyota Landcruiser is bla bla shows your ignorance and your bias towards Toyota. Be objective and cut the crap.

You obviously have not been out of your country and I assume its America. Like I Wrote before to Ben55
I said to him, I am talking reality not something I saw on some Website before or something I read from TIME magazine or CNN.

Have you heared of the following
1.Nissan patrol
2.Land rover Defender

You will find a lot of these aged machines still running around in some Third World Coutnries.Dont mention the G Class because you will rarely see it in Africa and in Asia.I was merely illustrating the fact the the Landcruiser and the Hilux are robust and you will find most and very old models of these vehchles still running and in good condition in the rough terrains of the areas that I have mentioned, I never said they were the only o

@ Keysor

Did you read my post? I said I've been to North Africa (Tunisia and Mali) on vacation with my wife. What I saw there were not G-Classes, but those '123 Mercedes' from the 70s or 80s, still working and running like the day they left the factory.

And just because there aren't any older G-Classes in Africa or elsewhere doesn't mean they aren't built like tanks. The G-Class wasn't as mass produced as some of the Benz sedans, and hence, many didn't find their way into Africa. Also, compared to most MB sedans of the period (we're talking 1970s and early 1980s here), the G-Class was a complex car. I doubt some street shop in Africa would be able to fix it if something went wrong. That's also the reason they use older MB sedans (usually with an M/T and without fuel-injection too) because they're easy to fix.

I regularly travel to Europe for business purposes and you'll be pleased to know that a German friend of mine has three G-Classes, two from the 1970s and one from the '80s. This guy is an offroading enthusiast and he's been around pretty much most parts of Europe and has participated in various tournaments or offroading treks. His G-Classes are a bit rusted, but you bet they still work and run fine. The next time I go to Germany, I'll make sure to bring my digital camera and try to visit this guy to PROVE to you that I am not bullshitting.

And the G-Class was rugged, reliable and able to take a beating too. Various newer reviews of older G-Classes have proven that. Owners experiences have proved that too. The Landcruiser and G-Class are in the same league when it comes to durability.

And before you say and I am a German car troll, you should see that I am being objective and giving credit where credit is due. Period.

Oh yeah, and take my advice, travel around Africa and see for yourself the older Mercedes' still running there. Most of the Toyota's there I've seen were from the 1980s, whereas I saw MB's from the 1950s-1980s there. And this isn't a rant against Toyota, I am simply stating that there are more OLDER MB's in that region than Toyota's.

I like to think of my Audi as a rebadged Porsche. A Porsche-lite.

Even if people want to say it is an expensive VW, I'm willing to bet my VW S4 is faster than your rebadged Toyota!

24HOJ

Since when does a Toyota compare to a BMW??? How can you compare something so classless, cars for poor people to a BMW? Have you not heard of neccessary and luxury?

Who does not know that Merc is part of the Chrysler Group or should i SAY THE Daimler Chrysler! The thing is that they share parts and the Merc division falls under the whole group and must listen accordingly, especially with their rediculous toy car SMART. I am a shareholder there as well and when I see the company future my BMW company will definately perform much better than the weakening Daimler Chrysler which consists of Mercedes Benz.

I couldn't care less of what Toyota is making, just mentioning thir name makes one sound cheap! Do you drive one?

To that other guy up there:

The fact that you try to cut cost does not mean that you will gain more profit, becasue there will be an affect on revenue and financial structures of the entire company! Revenue may fall due to the degration of your products which encourages fewer people to purchase them. You may ask, why do these companies still cut costs then: It is because they do not have the entire picture of what the financial situations might be and they have to explore to ge a wider picture. It is also very risky if ones bran image is distroyed by this move, like Merc has done: therefore even though they try to raise their quality, people have already got a shodow of this brand. On the other hand, BMW is not cutting costs at all and revenue is rising sharply due to better brand image and quality of products,this in turn results in more sales, lower cost per unit and bigger profit than those who are cutting cost. for those who still don't understand, read some books or attend a university.

Do not compare Toyota profits to BMW profits! It is like comparing profits of selling new computers and second hand computers which are 10 years old.

Toyota doesn't say "Shut Your Mouth and Move Forward", they will not openly say this although they wish the message got through to all their Toyota oners because there are just so many problems with their cars and they must complain, but they say"Everything Keeps Going Right" tying to convince you that everything in your Toyota is going right, which we all know is not, therefore they feel the need to tell their customers to convince them. Shame. I feel sorry for you regarding your Toyota:, 24HOJ.

No body dares to kick my a** because they will know that if they mess with a BMW driver like me, I will run them off the road and they will be the one who will be punished. Therefore no one gets in my way and I will not allow any one pass me on the road, not that they can anyway! If they even dare to scratch my car, I will beat them up myself right on that spot, most probably smash his car and throw him on his own bonnet, that would be such fun wouldn't it???

BMW is lucky to have such a loyal supporter like me and it is not me trying to make BMW look bad, it is BMW530i and those other ones who are trying to do so and I will not let anyone trash my company like this.

As a matter of fact, I do not own two dollar worth of shares in DC. Since when can you get that?? My share percentage , which in turn is owned by my compmany is 0.87%. Let me tell you that I am considering selling them as I do not see a bright future for this company although it has a sound history. I will be adding those amounts to my current BMW Group shares rather as they have a much more interetsing future and a very high target, which I believe will be beneficial in terms of final dividents.

I really do not have problems with Toyota drivers because most of them know their place and don't get in my way at all. The problems are usually caused my Merc and Lexus drivers.

a racing one let alone a driver's, that's why I can force someone off teh road without even a touch on my car!