Small Fish In A Big Pond? Lexus Hopes It Can Sell 500,000 Cars Globally In 2012

A bit of perspective globally for the big guns in 2011:

BMW 1.38 Million
Audi 1.3 Million
Mercedes-Benz 1.26 Million
Lexus 0.5 Million

Correction

Lexus 0.4 Million

"I doubt Lexus wants BMW, Audi, and Mercedes taxi cab and rental car business."

Man, these lame comments are getting old.

I don't even consider Lexus to be a luxury brand. No history or heritage. Go to the BMW and Mercedes Museum and see what a luxury brand is all about.

Slapping a fake gold L badge unto a Camry isn't luxury.


How does that comment feel, angryinch1, huh?

And the CT or HS isn't a taxi? You see them down here at the airport lined up in the hybrid taxi line.

@ pondosinatra

History and heritage defines the brand. I live in Munich and I am not far from BMW Welt and the BMW Museum and I often travel to Stuttgart to visit the Mercedes and Porsche Museums. A few months ago I was in Ingolstadt checking out the Audi Museum. In these museums these brands showcase their history. From the beginnings to now. It's fascinating, emotional and lets you know that you're buying a product from a brand that's been around for a long time and has done it right.

Now, please tell me what's wrong with a Mercedes C230 or R-Class as well as a BMW 318i Compact?

I've actually driven both the C230 with the 2.5-l V6 and an R320 CDI 4Matic when I worked for an MB dealer and found them to be good vehicles. The R-Class was comfortable and spacious and also handled well for such a large car. The C230 was eager, refined and was a competent drive. Are you going to slam the C230 because a "2.5-l V6 isn't luxury" or something? Are you telling me the R-Class "isn't luxury because it looks weird"? What's your problem with these cars?

And I drive a 2007 BMW 118i 5-Door and it's a good car. It gets me from A to B in a safe and fun manor and it's reliable. The only extras I have are a sunroof and A/T transmission. Other than that, the car is standard (cloth seats, no navigation system [because I bought a cheap 120 Euro nav system from an electronic shop]) and guess what? I AM TOTALLY HAPPY WITH THE CAR. It drives great, it's fun, it's reliable and it gets me from A to B.

And you know what's luxurious about the BMW 1-Series? That you, as a customer, can tick off the options and features you want in your 1-Series. That's luxury: the freedom of customizing your car and creating something unique and individual. I can pick the stuff I know I will use and need and not buy some fully-loaded luxury car that has so much crap and useless gimmicks onboard that I will never use and more importantly don't need.

Look, Wimmer, even BMW had no heritage when it first came into being. And Infiniti has plenty of internal culture- look at how the tuners went crazy over the G35, or how the current G is today's Skyline in Japan. You can't argue that the Skyline has no meaningful heritage. And Lexus? Even within a brand this boring, there's some. Lexus pioneered the reliable luxury car back in the '80s and rocked the market by undercutting the 7-series and S-class. That, my friend, is a legacy.

But a brand's history in no way affects its present state - look at Porsche building SUVs or how Ford, which started out with the utilitarian Model T, is now producing everything from the radical Shelby GT500 to the funky, economical Fiesta.

angry: you're funny. well i doubt the germans want the tarted up camry business. lol

or the corolla business (HS and CT). or the harrier business (RX).

that's rich enthusiast. The Harrier no longer exists. The HS and CT are not Corollas. But you know all that. lame. but i expect nothing less.

The HS and CT do in fact use modified Corolla platforms.

I'd love the specs that prove that HS and CT are Corolla derived. Anyone....crickets.....chirp chirp

"The CT200h is based on the MC platform, which also underpins the Lexus HS250h hybrid, the Scion tC, and the Toyota Corolla."
-Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2011-lexus-ct200h-review-lexus-ct200h-drive

Lexus owners leases rate is probably more reflective of the owners overall age than anything else. Older people grew up in a world where you always owned your cars.

Younger buyers that are attracted to the German brands listed are a generation back or two in general and do not hold to the same need to own something tangible.

Look at those people that buy videos to own vs the Netflicks generation that use it and lose it. It is more about the experience than the ownership.

Wow. Comparing a Camry to a 1-Series and 3-Series. What a genius.

To be fair you have to add Toyota to the mix 9.0 million vehicles....Still beats vw audi.

Please show a link and evidence where it states that a Toyota Crown Majesta is equal to a BMW 7 series or MB S class. I have a hard time believing anything you post, angryinch, since you're such a blind Lexus fanboy.

weird, someone does a simple request for information simply gathers an insult? oh wait it's angryinch... nvm lol

The Lexus fanboys have not replied to my challenge since the link and information don't exist. It's pure fantasy along with the notion that nothing in a Toyota or Lexus ever goes wrong.

My sister got rid of her Prius II a year ago because it was unreliable.

Wheres Justacar? This means Lexus is more exclusive right than Audi right?

LOL there is a fine line between exclusive and minimal sales.

Exactly my point, but Justacar seems to believe Audi only selling half of what Mercedes, and BMW sell in the US makes them exclusive, and under performing. lol.

Do you choose to ignore the fact that badgewhores go either way? There are a plethora of people such as yourself who whore yourself out to the Japanese makers and their false reliability ratings created mainly from delaying inevitable recalls for over a decade... oh but wait, VW has terrible reliability, it might as well explode just looking at it. </sarcasm>

I love how the Lexus fanboys take over this thread and deboost everyone who says something negative about Lexus. At the same time, when a fantasy make-believe-comment is made about Lexus it gets massive boost support no matter how stupid or unreal it is.

Lexus isn't even a global brand in the sense of their rivals. They sold 400,000 cars last year of which what, 350,000 were in the US alone and the other 50,000 were sold globally. Of those 350,000 sold in the US, 70% of sales were made up by the ES and RX.

The only market where Lexus is truly successful is in North America. They're a failure in Europe (the UK and Russia are their "biggest markets" there), they're not sold in South America or Africa (except South Africa). Asia and Australia make up the rest of Lexus' "world market". Yeah, what a truly "global brand" they are.

Funny how Angryinch1 thinks that leather is all that. So are the Camry Deluxe and Harrier better cars than the 3er because of leather seats? Are they going to win a magazine comparison because they have leather seats?

Hell, even in Japan some of the most high-end luxury cars, like, oh, the Crown Majesta, use high quality cloth seats.

Leather is overrated. Back in the '50s and even '70s leather was optional on many luxury cars including Cadillacs and Lincoln.

I personally hate leather. It's slippery, shiny and difficult to clean and it doesn't last as long either. My dad has a 2011 MB E350 CGI Sport W212 and I hate the leather seats in it. Our ex-2002 MB E320 Sport W211 had a cloth-leather mix where the inner part of the seat you'd sit on was cloth and the surrounding side support was leather. It looked far better than 100% leather seats and it also felt much better because you wouldn't slide all over the place.

Leather is overrated. And leather doesn't define a luxury car since you could literally get leather on a POS like a Dodge Neon or Geo Metro.

angry: you're totally right. covering a corolla or camry in leather and changing the badge makes a luxury car. it's definitely not about substance or engineering.

A very telling fact is hidden in the bottom of this article.

"Ohara said he expected overall Lexus sales in Japan to be only slightly higher than last year's 42,365 vehicles. BMW sold 34,195 vehicles in Japan in 2011, while Mercedes sold 33,207 and Audi 21,166."

So after 6 years on the market in Japan, Lexus is the number 1 luxury car. 6 years ago, everyone thought that Lexus would tank in Japan, that Japanese would only buy luxury cars from Germany. Lexus quietly cracked that open, in fairly short order, just as they did in the US.

I understand they are also doing quite well in Russia and China. They still undoubtedly have some inroads to make in import-averse Western Europe, but that may just be a matter of time too.

If you add US and Japanese sales (~240,000), that still leaves some 165,000 sold elsewhere. And that was in a down year. Lexus has definitely gone past the US only days. Western Europe may be the last market they succeed in, but succeed they will.

are you aware of how closed off the japanese auto market is? the domestic makers have 96% market share.

see "how japan has maintained the most protected and closed auto market in the industrialized world."

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:xjBmKMnDo-YJ:www.americanautocouncil.org/default_files/Japan%27s%2520Protected%2520Auto%2520Market.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjo4gcF2diDUrjNqja6zFyXNIFgnaNg1jPw6U7-8kKp2RRerebIrDQszlhP_qbXVM911nbPtt4XSDIufr02MSkqBDtyvuXUfzvKUt_hOsbwQQanGTQu09_xQP4xv01XibN7SXKD&sig=AHIEtbR2GljnZ0HTuZcO_OKL7bXqju7Dcg

angry: so please do explain the fact that no foreign auto maker has more than a single digit percentage of the japanese market.

how about enthusiast, you explain how the rich Japanese, notorious brand snobs, have embraced Lexus after 6 short years, when Germanspies and its lemmings insisted that Lexus would fail in its home market.

TheTruth should call himself "TheLiar"



"Germans Outsell Lexus At Home In Japan"

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/01/germans-outsell-lexus-at-home-in-japan/

why are you all babbling about the japanese market? it's not a level playing field. japan is one of the most closed auto markets in the first world with all kinds of import taxes, restriction, bizarre tariffs, etc. it's a testament to the japanese brand snobs that they'll happily pay 2 or 3 times MORE for a german car over a japanese car.

if lexus priced THE SAME (forget about more expensive) as bmw or mercedes in the US market, sales would collapse.

Oh Willis, nice try. Thank you Spy6 for schooling him.

Enthusiast, I will agree that the Japanese don't purchase a lot of foreign cars. Bertel of TTAC explains repeatedly how this doesn't exactly make Japan a closed market, for a number of reasons. But fact is, Japan has been quite open to the German luxury brands, to the point that you and all the Germanspies cronies laughed till your bellies ached a few years ago when ToMoCo decided to Launch Lexus in Japan. Yet now, 6 years later, here they are, number one in Japan. EOC. Period. Indisputable. Who's laughing now?

which cars, EXACTLY, are going to drive a 25% increase in sales in one year?? a few thousand new GS isn't going to cut it.

you are incorrect. refer to the 2011 year end post on this blog and you'll see that the 3-series makes up about 25% of bmw sales....while the RX is nearly half of lexus sales and the entry level ES/CT/IS make up virtually all the rest of lexus sales.

I am sure the actual companies care about what they sell worldwide, it's not like oversees money is worse less. Especially since none of this companies are headquartered in the US.

they probably will. lexus is value entry luxury brand and SHOULD always sell more volume since their weighted average price is well below bmw, mercedes, porsche, etc.

twice the cash? please do share your sources. they've all given very similiar incentives in the past. do you ever consider the difference in MSRP? similar equipped mercedes/bmw models are many thousands more than a comparable lexus.

as you all point out regularly, the german cars have very little luxury features standard (the focus is on engineering) despite high base MSRPs.

for example, just go the lexus and bmw sites and build the cars:

fully optioned 2012 IS250 sedan: $40,839
fully optioned 2012 328i sedan: $54,120

GS460: $59,190
550i: $91,195

LS460L: $95,430 (fully optioned is just cracks the BASE price of an S550)
S550: $131,300

so if the germans through an extra $1,000 or $2,000 incentive compared to lexus, how does this make up for MSRPs that can be as much as $35,000 apart? curious to understand.

bd: read your article. apples to orange. according to your source, bmw spend $1500 over industry average (including all cars, NOT just luxury brands). what does lexus spend?

also, let's talk NET sales prices. taking $1500 off MSRP of any bmw still leaves it many thousand more expensive than a comparably equipped lexus. as you all like to point out, EVERYTHING is optional on many bmws while standard on lexus.

The Toyota dealership near my office services Lexus. This is a Toyota/Scion only dealership. In the words of DeNiro to the pimp "Why don't you suck on this."

I likes me this statement:

"But Toyota's 23-year-old premium marque has also struggled because of its weak image in Europe and Japan, where German giants BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi dominate."

[quote] Wimmer "History and heritage defines the brand. It's fascinating, emotional and lets you know that you're buying a product from a brand that's been around for a long time and has done it right."[/quote]

1)With all their history and heritage, you would think they would be able build a solid car! Yet AUDI,BMW,MB and VW are known to have electronic problems, bad dealer service, and expensive repairs and not to mention having to leave your car at the shop.

2)Of all the German brands Porsche IMO is the only one who takes quality seriously.

3) There is no excuse for the above listed brands to charge a lot of money for options that should BE standard on cars costing 95K and up.

4) In my area you see much more BMW and MB both private or dealer certified in the used car lots then you'd see a Lexus.

I find it funny when I hear Americans bash GM, FORD, Chrysler for poor quality , yet buy European cars that are more expensive that have poor quality especially in the electronics of their cars.

I should correct myself and say Lease instead of buy because that's what majority of North Americans do! They brag about how great the brand is but none of them exercise the buyback option because deep down they know they won't be able to afford the maintenance of these German cars. My neighbor on the 8th floor of my Condo drives a 2006 Audi A8 cringed when his service cost for a repair came to $12,000 something about changing an engine.

I also find it amusing how some people here bash a Toyota, considering that my neighbor above my Condo yet my neighbor's wife who lives above me traded in her E Class for a Toyota Corolla. when her garage spot was empty for 2 to 4 days you knew her E-Class was at the service shop for some repair. This lady barely drove her MB yet it had lots of problems. So much for history and heritage.

I've leased both the BMW E65(Bangle butt 1st generation 7 series)and an MB CL550. That Bimmer was by the far the worst car ever of all the cars I drove. The CL550 wasn't as bad but its very annoying when you have to leave the car at the dealer on numerous occasions. I drive majority of the time on Highways to meet my clients for work.

At the end of my lease I jumped ship to a 2008 Lexus LS460L AWD car came fully equipped and then some. Followed the maintenance service and never had any surprises. The car is rock solid and trouble free.

THE LS460L may not handle like a BMW (the ultimate driving machine WHEN NOT IN THE SHOP)or an MB (Built like no other WHEN ITS BUILT RIGHT THAT IS) but at least it's always on the road and not in the shop, and that's what matters to me the most because, the more clients I see the more contracts I sign, the more money I make for my own business.

But the LS is so unbearably boring... how can you stand to drive a limo like that and still call yourself an enthusiast?

"1)With all their history and heritage, you would think they would be able build a solid car! Yet AUDI,BMW,MB and VW are known to have electronic problems, bad dealer service, and expensive repairs and not to mention having to leave your car at the shop."

Do you really think that these brands got to where they are because they built unreliable and poor quality cars? Um, no. Their reputation for high quality cars comes from that the fact that they built and still are building solid cars.

I come from a Mercedes family and we've never had any electronic issues whatsoever with out "poor quality/unreliable German cars". We had an '85 300SE (W126) that we only sold in 2008. It never had a problem aside from a loose screw holding the alternator inside the engine compartment. Wow, such poor quality. What a piece of crap, eh? We sold it with 280,000 km+ on the odometer.

My dad still has his 1989 Mercedes 500SL (R129). Nothing has ever gone wrong in that car. Every 50,000 km the roof mechanism needs to be tuned and checked for alignment. That's it. Is that a reliability issue? Hardly. 312,000 km on the clock and no issues.

Even our ex-2002 E320 Sport (W211 never gave us any trouble except for that dead battery one winter. We kept that car until late 2011 with almost 200,000 km on it. It never once failed us. And it was also loaded with features. Now my parents drive a 2011 E350 CGI Sport W212 - bought second hand (45,000+ km on the clock) - and are touring all over Europe in it putting on more miles.

I drive a 2007 BMW 118i and I've never had any serious issues. The worst thing that happened to me was a faulty ignition coil in cylinder number four that was changed by BMW Mobile Service within half an hour of me calling them.

We've also owned Japanese cars in the past. Our three Mitsubishis, two Galants, one Pajero, had their A/Cs fail, interior rattles and one Galant had an unreliable engine. We also had a 1998 Nissan Cefiro that was constantly affected with electronic glitches and transmission issues. We could live with the electronic glitches (radio, windows, mirror not working on one day), but a faulty transmission? Um, no. We got rid of that "reliable Japanese car" within less than two years.



"2)Of all the German brands Porsche IMO is the only one who takes quality seriously."

Oh please. What a silly statement.

Do you really think Audi, BMW, MB and Volkswagen don't make QUALITY CARS? There is a difference between quality and reliability for your information.

The Citroen 2CV for example was a very reliable car but was cheaply made. In essence it was very reliable, but of poor quality. Hell, we can even say the same thing for those supposedly good Japanese cars of the '70s. Reliable? Yes. Quality? Hmmm, not sure, they all rusted away in the '70s, and yet I see tons of older European cars from the same era still running strong with little to no rust on them - and many of these cars don't even have classic status or will

never be classics. Yeah, good reliable Japanese cars that last forever. Give me a break. In the '70s and early '80s their rust-proofing quality was CRAP. Fact.

If you think Audi, BMW, MB and VW aren't quality cars, then why are they so sought after on global markets? Why are people willing to pay so much money for these cars and the badge that is on them? Give me a break that these are not quality cars. I find it absolutely silly on your behalf to label them as non-quality cars. German cars are also engineered with the Autobahn in mind. That alone means a lot of thought goes into structural rigidity and safety and the overall QUALITY of the car and its components.


And my statement still stands. Brand prestige and its history and heritage are important factors when it comes to a luxury brand.

Funny how you think Lexus is so special. It's not. They're not a blip on the radar in Europe and with the boring and unappealing crap they're currently offering here they'll never a blip on the radar here.

One more thing. I am a professional photographer specializing in automobiles. I am constantly at classic car events and around owners of these cars. They appreciate their cars because of what they stand for and the history and heritage of these brands, be it Ferrari, Fiat, Citroen, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Renault, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Rover etc. History and heritage and what those cars stood for back then and now is what makes them so special. A Citroen 2CV or Fiat 130 Coupe or Mercedes Ponton are cars that bring a smile to your face and bring back old memories and above all create FASCINATION and an EMOTIONAL CONNECTION to the brand.

Lexus? I feel nothing. Lexus to me are Toyotas with leather that are designed for North American tastes with a bunch of useless gimmicks inside that nobody will ever need.


"3) There is no excuse for the above listed brands to charge a lot of money for options that should BE standard on cars costing 95K and up. "

Do you know why these cars cost so much? No you don't, because you claimed they don't have quality. Bullshit. They cost so much because of the engineering prowess that went into them and also because you're paying for the name. If Lexus could charge these prices, guess what, they would. Hell, in Europe many Lexus are now similarly priced or even more expensive than their European competition - and people still ignore them.

Also, us Europeans like to customize our luxury cars. We work hard for our money and when we buy a luxury car we damn well want to spec it out with the stuff we want. No Lexus allows you to do this since they're filled with useless crap that nobody will ever need. Luxury? Luxury to us Europeans means being able to choose what we want to have in our cars. Period.

Remember that Lexus' recommended service schedule requires that their cars make more than twice as many visits to the dealership as their competitors.

What a great flame war! I love the haters and the posers in this board which probably cannot afford even the entry levels of their favorite car brand. I am heading to the Rolex 24 hrs this weekend, anyone interested in coming down and showing off their rides? I am riding my 2008 LS 460 while my buddies are bringing a 2007 911 and 2011 M3. We can compare car brands and have an educated discussion. Anyone?

Same goes for you. Showing up at a RACE in such a floater rather than something decently sporty is quite odd.

You comment, you get sucked into the inferno!

I want owners of MB/BMW/Audi, Lexus/Infiniti want speak here...

I had 2008 Infinit G35, 2009 GL4509done with lease), now with 2012 BMW X6 (with 4.4L V8)

IMO, Infiniti is not bad at all when compare to BMW 328i/330i. I have drive 328i many times, but never liked. I test drove MB and BMW many times, never liked. But once I owned it, it is different experience. Now, I don't think I can like Japanese brands anymore. I feel they are trying like Hyundai/Kia, want to be like big boys. That is just my opinion.

there is only few are out there, the owners, rest are running their mouth, "I know everything Americans"...

FromThePassengerSeat yes I admit its a "floater" but I travel quite a bit (all over Florida and up to Atlanta) because of my job so I need a car like this. It was either this or my wife's Touareg or my daughter's MINI (not many sporty choices at my household). I am itching to get something sporty but I am requesting a transfer to either Asia or the Middle East (greater earning power) so I guess I will float around until that decision is made. Good luck!

Unless Toyota introduces new models that excite consumers and clearly differentiate themselves with features and benefits the Germans and other luxury marques do not possess, Lexus will find it difficult to sell 500,000+ cars in this global market.

The time has come.....