Why Do Many Americans Dig In Their Heels When It Comes To Diesel Technology?

Because Americans are stupid.

Every Once In A While, It is good to provide some facts and let people make their own judgements.

BMW 640i 3.0L TT 320hp {36.7mpg European Combined} {5.4s 0-62}
BMW 640d 3.0L TT 313hp {51.4mpg European Combined} {5.5s 0-62}

BMW 320i 2.0L TT 184hp {47.1mpg European Combined} {7.6s 0-62}
BMW 320d 2.0L TT 184hp {62.8mpg European Combined} {7.6s 0-62}

320 figures were for auto transmissions.

Now i like to think of myself as a gearhead but facts are facts, unless i live in a country where petrol is dirt cheap or i can claim all fuel in expenses, i would be a fool to regard diesels as inferior.

I used BMW stats because i am thinking of getting the 640d but the same similarities can be found in all the German Manufacturers between their diesel and petrol engines.

Relevance ?

A vehicle with almost 40% improvement in fuel economy and less than 2% shortfall in accel performance is considered inferior by your countrymen and when i post the facts you ask for "Relevance" ?

last time i checked a 50c increase in Price for Diesel over Gasoline equates to less than 14% and even $1 increase equates to about 30%

So even at a $1 difference in price per gallon the Diesel is still better value for money

Bullshit.

That may be VW, yet with BMW there is a clear advantage with Diesel over gas. Here is Chicago, Diesel fuel at the moment is only .10 cents more expensive per gallon vs. premium fuel, which history shows that will change and Diesel will be less come summer. More power, alot better fuel economy. I am not sure why diesels have yet to fully catch on in the US>

Baloney. Don't look at cost per gallon. You have to look at cost per mile. Even with diesel selling for more than premium (as it is here in the Seattle area) it still costs less per mile.

If your friend's car smells of diesel, then he must spill it all over the car every time he fuels up. My daughter's Jetta has no odor of any kind, inside or out. The tailpipe is spotless with over 50,000 miles. My Tiguan (gas) with 9000 miles is coated inside with black soot.

That is the New 2012 3-series sedan, yet when BMw bring the diesel variant for that engine, you will see almost a 10 mpg bump. A 2011 BMw 335i sedan gas is 17 city / 27 highway .... Diesel 2011 335i is 23 city / 36 mpg highway ....

That is a big gap and easliy worth the value. You are talking about saving someone about $600 a year in fuel ...

@ angryinch1

Truth? You guys should be writing stories for Mr. Rogers make-believe-world. You're so creative - with BULLSHIT.

At that much of a price spread, you have a point. However, the Jetta TDI will get close to 50mpg highway easily. I took my daughter's 09 Jetta on a road trip that included two mountain passes. Driving 70+ where I could, I still saw 46mpg for the entire trip.

VW diesels have never been unreliable, and in general VW is a vast improvment over the 2000-2002 models. My 06 Jetta (gas) never had a significant problem.

@ thetruth

***Torque, torque, torque, that's all I hear about diesels. The 335d is slower than the 335i. plain and simple.***

So? Who cares?

The 335d is a fast car. Nobody gives a shit if it's a few tenths of a second slower to 60 mph. Nobody. It's more fuel efficient and the torque make driving it enjoyable. It's got a high top speed and is refined.

So what the hell is the problem? Oh, it's "slower than a 335i". You make me laugh. How old are you?

You remind me of one of those people we find all over the Internet with their narrow-minded outlook on these things.

"Car A is so awesome! 0-60 in 4.5 seconds! Car B is a complete piece of shit! 0-60 in 4.6 seconds! SLOW!"


^That you?^

Sure sounds like you.

@ thetruth

***Torque, torque, torque, that's all I hear about diesels. The 335d is slower than the 335i. plain and simple.***

So? Who cares?

The 335d is a fast car. Nobody gives a shit if it's a few tenths of a second slower to 60 mph. Nobody. It's more fuel efficient and the torque make driving it enjoyable. It's got a high top speed and is refined.

So what the hell is the problem? Oh, it's "slower than a 335i". You make me laugh. How old are you?

You remind me of one of those people we find all over the Internet with their narrow-minded outlook on these things.

"Car A is so awesome! 0-60 in 4.5 seconds! Car B is a complete piece of shit! 0-60 in 4.6 seconds! SLOW!"


^That you?^

Sure sounds like you.


Wimmer, you posted that in the wrong place. no matter, I'll still respond, as I did in another thread. 0-60 never seems to count to so-called enthusiasts when their choice is slower. every other time it counts. meh, can't argue with crazy.

I don't personally care about 0-60. I drive a Civic. A Prius before that. But it is a metric that conveniently gets discounted when talking about diesels.

"diesels offer clear benefits over gasoline"
and many drawbacks:
-more expensive engines relying on notoriously unreliable turbochargers
-slower than comparable gas engines
-more smog forming emissions
-fuel prices that have averaged about 30 cents more per gallon for the past several years.

So yeah maybe us 'murcans are not as stupid as euro-snobs seem to think.

Many gas engines now use turbochargers, if anything a 2.0 VW diesel is quicker than a regular 2.0 gas engine. Diesel engines are rated as clean as the vast majority of gasoline cars on sales. The only thing is the fuel price.

Gas engines using turbochargers ar not my cup of tea either. It seems to be the quick fix when a mfr can't build a decent, competitive normally aspirated engine. Turbos have also become the go to tech for the sake of small and lighter engines to help fuel economy. (Lords help us all when these things start breaking at 60,000 miles.) But that doesn't negate the fact that to achieve even a basic standard of performance, modern diesels virtually require the turbos, an extra cost and complexity that older diesels did without. And this is why these new turbo engines will not see the mythical 300,000 trouble free miles of diesel lore.

And they are only as clean out of the tailpipes as the barest minimum standard, while many gasoline and (of course) hybrid engines are completely obliterating the requirements, with SULEV and PZEVs commonplace.

@thetruth01-You are misinformed or are a "pretend" auto enthusiast. My neighbor has a 2011 BMW 3 series diesel. This car has more Torque: 425 ft-lbs. @ 1750 rpm then the 335 twin turbo model. Moreover, if you've ever seen the newer BMWs they have a feature where a fuel additive is added periodically to their gas tank (if you look on the driver rear side lower quarter panel is the access point). This converts any emission to harmless water vapors. The car hardly smelled like diesel inside. The Torque 425 lbs was so amazing, I thought I was in a rocket ship when he hit the gas, and the gas mileage was incredible.

The problem is the COST of diesel here vs in Europe. If the "petro" companies would produce more diesel or invest in the refinement process of more diesel, this might bring the cost down. But to say a diesel cars are "slower than comparable gas engines; more smog forming emissions" is not even close to being accurate with the BMW 3 series diesel. Yes - cost of diesel fuel is more, but that can easily be corrected with a little more investment in diesel fuel technology from the petro companies. However to offset the cost slightly there are MANY tax incentives that one could qualify for too. My neighbor got a $3500 tax credit on his BMW diesel. Today's diesels are not your grandpa's diesel engine from yesterday, and I would gladly buy one. Now lets get the government or petro companies to start investing more in diesel fuel and you'll see plenty of benefits.

I was comparing a 2.0 TDI against a regular 2.0 naturally aspirated gasolinge engine with around 150 horsepower.

gkearns, i trust you are the definite authority on who is a real auto enthusiast.

Ah, that's why I love Autospies so much, always good for a laugh.

Torque, torque, torque, that's all I hear about diesels. The 335d is slower than the 335i. plain and simple.

and diesel smell, i said nothing about that. i made it very clear that the best "clean" diesels are no better than the worst clean gas cars. the EPA will bear that out, do some research.

produce more diesel fuel? from what? please enlighten us on how to extract more diesel from crude oil.

and tax credits. i don't know where your friend lives that he got $3500. Your recollection is likely off. The highest credit for BMWs was $1800 IIRC. but these have been phased out anyway. they didnt do much to mitigate the other negative factors. BMW couldnt give away their diesels. VW is the only mfr selling any real number of them, and thats just because their base gas engines are so lousy. If I had to choose a VW 2.5L or their TDI, even I would go for the oil burner.

What a bunch of BS. These anti-diesel guys will do anything to put diesel down and make their overrated hybrids look so "impressive".


***-more expensive engines relying on notoriously unreliable turbochargers***

What unreliable turbochargers? There have been many turbodiesels in the past and the turbochargers generally lasted until 300,000 km before having to be either replaced or examined for wear and tear. Such is the case with the Mercedes W123 300D Turbodiesel/W116 300SD Turbodiesel. Those turbochargers were manufactured by Garret, an American firm.


***-slower than comparable gas engines***

Wow, what a major disadvantage. *Sarcasm*

Who cares? 0-60 is so overrated. Modern cars are quick in that regard and no normal car buyer will buy a car based on 0-60 times. People have different priorities. Period.


***-more smog forming emissions***

Yep. A VW Jetta TDI is so environmentally unfriendly, but a Lexus LX570, with a gas-guzzling V8 is so nice to the environment. When I think of a Jetta TDI I must obviously picture death and destruction in front of me, whereas the Lexus LX570 brings to mind butterflies coming out of its exhaust. Yep!


***-fuel prices that have averaged about 30 cents more per gallon for the past several years.***

The cost per mile is cheaper. Some people buy diesels because they just want to have more RANGE and FILL UP LESS. It's that simple.

Diesel shouldn't be more expensive than gasoline from a refining process because it's a stage in-between crude oil and gasoline. From what I hear the oil companies in America keep the prices of diesel artificially high to make more profit from gasoline, which their refineries are set on producing.

O Wimmer, nice tries.

Those 300,000 mile engines are the diesels of yore. Modern diesels with all their turbos and emissions equipment are a timebomb. turbos have some of the worst record for reliability. Combine that with German reliability, whoo, good luck there.

0-60 does matter. funny, on auto sites it always matters until your favorite loses the drag race. that never ceases to amuse me.

the best you can compare for emissions is to a 5.7L V8. Priceless. Incidentally, both engines are rated at ULEV II, proving my point that the best diesels are as good as the worst gassers.

Cost per mile, with higher upfront costs, more expensive fuel just doesnt add up when compared to an efficient gasoline engine. Like a hybrid, it takes years to recoup. If it was all about pure cash, neither choice is a good investment. Which is why so few diesels are sold, expcept the Jetta, where the choice isnt just about cash, but about the fact that the base Jetta engines, the 2.0 and the 2.5, both suck so bad, that the diesel looks like an absolute gem.

I'm sold. Had some experiences with a couple of modern diesels lately. They are more powerful, less noise and smoke.
Biggest problem I see is the cost of the fuel itself, 30-50 cents more per gallon around here. Why?

not compared to Premium fuel ( required on luxury cars like BMW or Audi or mercedes, typically diesel is only about .10 cents more.

Compared to regular gas, then that is pretty true.

Link please.

Here's the link:

http://www.insideline.com/volkswagen/jetta/2011/comparison-test-2012-toyota-prius-v-three-vs-2011-volkswagen-jetta-sportwagen-tdi.html


1st Place: 2011 Volkswagen Jetta SportWagen TDI
More like a car and less like a driving appliance, the Jetta wagon simply gets the job done with more style, feel and easily appreciated torque.

2nd Place: 2012 Toyota Prius V Three Wagon
In abstract and even on paper, the newest addition to the Prius family should, by all rights, win this. After two weeks, however, it fails to inspire us.

Jetta acceleration times

0-60 mph (sec.) 8.8
1/4-mile (sec. @ mph) 16.6 @ 83.5



Prius Acceleration times

0-60 mph (sec.) 10.3
1/4-mile (sec. @ mph) 17.5 @ 78.4

So the Prius loses based on personal preference even tho it wins on the objective measure being tested. typical of so call "enthusiast" publications. Which is why in journalism the last paragraphs are usually the least important. :)

Isn't the Prius an electric/hybrid type vehicle. You're comparing wooden bats and broom stick handles. VW is considered an all petro engine. The Prius is a hybrid (electric and gas). Of course an electric AND gas engine will have better MPGs. Gosh another wannabe auto enthusiast!! Compare a diesel car in that category with another diesel in that category; not an electric/gas hybrid. How about a GM Volt vs Prius or something along those lines.

spy6, good points again. gkearns seems to think only he can determine what makes an auto enthusiast, he's definitely on the right sight for that attitude. I also pointed out to him higher up in the thread that the reason the only real seller of diesels is the Jetta's because VW's diesels compare favorably to their other weak gas engines. But they dont compare so favorably to gas engines of other mfrs.

The US govt even tried to even out the tax field, promoting clean diesels for a couple years with credits. It didnt help anyone but the aforementioned Jetta. Yet the Prius continues to sell in droves despite the phase out of its credit years ago. And new hybrids coming onto the market that are making inroads are doing so without any incentives.

"Face it, the reason euros like their diesels, the euros tax the eff out of gasoline driving up the price sky high in comparison to diesel. If priced like the USA, I bet all those euros would switch to gas also."


Diesel is also highly taxed here. A diesel car will always be more expensive than a comparable gasoline car and there exists a heavy diesel tax here that makes driving a gasoline car actually cheaper for most people.

But we Europeans still buy diesels because we see something called BENEFITS in them.

A modern diesel is spirited, refined, gets good gas mileage (thus more range and time between fill-ups) and is also fun to drive in their own way. More people are opting for diesel-powered cars despite HIGHER OVERALL COSTS (in terms of car taxes) than a gasoline-powered car.

Hybrids are so overrated. When they're not in the city they have to lug around those batteries and electric motors. The extra weight isn't good for MPG.

Hybrids lugging around batteries, yet still getting slightly better highway mileage than the best diesels, while getting much much better city mileage. Those batteries are really not that heavy, you know.

Actually, the fueleconomy.gov rating for the Jetta TDI wagon is 33 mpg combined compared to only 25 mpg combined for the 4 cyl TSX wagon.

Funy you say that, Inside Line is testing both vehicles in its long term tests. The Jetta TDI is averaging 35.3 mpg versus only 24.6 mpg for the Acura TSX. A huge 43% better and yet another example of a diesel doing better in the real word than in the EPA test.

I find it seriously worrying that some people absolutely hate the truth .

They would say and do anything to convince themselves that the lie they tell themselves is in fact the truth.

One wonders how you manage to avoid jumping in front of a train every day.

Then again.....there is my answer.

http://www.insideline.com/infiniti/m35-hybrid/2012/2012-infiniti-m35h-vs-2011-mercedes-benz-e350-bluetec-comparison-test.html

2012 Infiniti M35h vs. 2011 Mercedes-Benz E350 Bluetec

The Infiniti had faster acceleration and better mileage.

The Infiniti M35 hybrind isnt really that good in regards to fuel economy. A 535xi sedan gets 21 city / 30 highway... A 528xi is 24 city / 32 highway. Wait til BMW brings the diesel to the US in the 5-series which has been rated in the low 40 to mid 40's mpg ....

"As-tested fuel economy for both sedans was identical at 24.4 mpg"

***The Infiniti had faster acceleration and better mileage.***


Why everyone is so obsessed with something as lame as 0-60 times is beyond me. I drive a 8/9 second 0-100 km/h car and I've never had any problems merging unto an Autobahn - not just any highway but an Autobahn - during peak times. Nor have I had any problems overtaking huge columns of trucks on normal roads with my 143-horsepower BMW 118i AUTOMATIC.

Either you 0-60 guys are such terrible drivers that you depend on fast cars to look good or merge or you have no concept of intelligent driving which involves being aware, timing your moves etc.

"One reason is that the federal fuel tax on diesel fuel is now higher in the United States than the tax on gasoline. And to exacerbate the price, in the past few years, U.S. refineries have been eagerly exporting refined diesel fuel to Europe and emerging markets. In Europe, diesel pump prices are lower than gasoline prices."

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120130/OEM06/301309935#ixzz1l0IvZ4z4


P.S. A hybrid will lose power in the high altitude of the mountains but a turbo diesel will lose none of its power.

LISTEN YOU FOOL !!!

I LIVE IN UK AND GO TO EUROPE EVERY MONTH !!!

DIESEL PRICES ARE HIGHER IN EUROPE THAN PETROL PRICES !!!

Current UK price for Petrol 132.9p Per Litre
Current UK price for Diesel 140.9p Per Litre

Diesel Cars Cost More to buy than Petrol ones
New 320d is £2,500 - £3,000 more than 320i
640d is £2,500 more than 640i

Same situation in the Used Car Market.

I know you live in a bubble but at least use Google once in a while.

Why so outraged when I'm right?


http://www.fuel-prices-europe.info/

Fuel prices as of Feb.1 2012

Unleaded 95 RON Diesel

€ 1,740 € 1,586 - Denmark
€ 1,598 € 1,548 - Finland
€ 1,475 € 1,359 - France
€ 1,562 € 1,428 - Germany
€ 1,734 € 1,685 - Italy
€ 1,757 € 1,465 - Netherlands
€ 1,924 € 1,844 - Norway
€ 1,388 € 1,332 - Spain

Sorry.......

Just so fed up of correcting stupid people on this site who think the world ends east of FL and west of CA.

You would not believe how many cretins on this site repeatedly post the same comment about diesel being cheaper than petrol in Europe even though I an others have corrected them.

Perfect definition of "Compound Fools" i tell ya.

Again. My Apologies....

Angryinch...

I see now, the only way to debate actual facts you happen not to like is to create lies and state them as fact.

Now it makes sense to me how someone could constantly lie to themselves and others and still look in the mirror, you are so crippled with your inferiority complex that the thought that the Europeans might just be on to something better would kill you.

Never mind, just as VW/AUDI sales and Market Share are increasing year on year so are Diesels sales and market share Increasing year on year so i guess there is a growing acceptance that the holier/smarter Europeans were right all along.

Sorry Mate...... go jump in front of an 18 wheeler and save yourself from reality.

Ok, let's try this another way - go to the web site below to confirm for yourself that diesel IS less expensive than "petrol" in most European counties.

http://www.fuel-prices-europe.info/

---

"You would not believe how many cretins on this site repeatedly post the same comment about diesel being cheaper than petrol in Europe even though I an others have corrected them"

If you build it they will come. The selection right now is pretty slim. Also, those who want a reliable Japanese car have no diesels to choose from. If the only options are European cars, which are expensive to maintain, then you are appealing to the wrong market. If the purpose of buying a diesel is to save money, then why would this crowd be shopping for Mercedes/BMW diesels?

Make a $15,000 diesel Honda Civic and see how it sells - it would probably do well.

An interesting study on emissions of modern diesel engines vs modern gas engines. The conclusions are similar "The current generation of light-duty diesel vehicles sold in the U.S. is lower than equivalent gasoline vehicles in virtually all emissions except NOx, and that’s being addressed to a significant degree (Bin 5/LEV II diesel vehicles being introduced; 0.05 grams NOx/mile at 50,000 miles; 0.07 grams/mile at 120,000 miles FUL). "
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/Diesel.pdf
and
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions.html

Of course you can find anything on the internet so... as you know ymmv.
BTW love the X5 diesel, very quick... as quick as the old non turbo V8 at least in roll on acceleration tests we have run. Also got right at 35mpg between St Louis and Topeka a few weeks back.

I am surprise that noone is considering the higher purchase price of Diesel as compared to a regular gas engine. Where are all the comparisons on how long it will take for the diesel engine to cover the cost difference in purchase price before any savings are seen.

Also the Prius uses regular gas.

Why are you comparing two different generations of vehicles? For a fair comparison the 535d gets 41% better fuel economy than the 535i and the most comparable 4 cylinder diesel has 42% better fule economy than the 528i.

The last generation 335d isn't going to be on sale for much longer. The new diesels in the newest generation 3 series with the new 8 speed gearbox will deliver better fuel economy than before. Just how the 335d had better fuel economy than the 335i and 328i in the last generation the next diesel 3 series to come to the US will have even better fuel economy than the latest 328i. Even if the EPA ratings are the same of two different generations the diesel will likely do better in the real world.

Doing some estimates when the next 3 series diesel comes to the US should be rated around 33 city and 46 highway.

"ITs made by Germans! If Japan brings their diesel over here..it would sell better..I wish they would bring diesel hybrids."

We all know you're a stupid troll / fake account, but that remark is bordering on racism.

By the way, WHAT JAPANESE DIESELS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Toyota has to buy diesels from BMW because their own diesels can't hold a candle to the German diesels (as well as French and Italian). The Lexus IS200d/IS220d has never gotten a glowing review for its diesel engine, which is outdated and uncompetitive. Always has been.

You're so full of it. Then again, we all know you're a fake account and that you, Angryinch, knowitall1985, spy6 etc. are all one and the same person.

What about the premium you pay for diesel????

Not the fuel the motor itself......

Hybrids in general cost more then their gas equivalent then do diesel's do. I'm not so sure there is the same resistance to diesel's as there was previously. I think it is that too many car makers are scared to commit to them. Also perhaps there is a potential greater profit in hybrids, especially if there is going to be any government financial backing.Personally if I had to choose I would take the diesel over the hybrid any time of the day. Why pay on average 3 to grand more.

@thetruth01 - you're a bag of wind that doesn't understand TORQUE vs HP rating. I've owned 5 differrent BMWs and think the 3 series diesel is pretty special car. The BMW 335d diesel Torque 425 1b @ 1750 rpms far more superior to their (great) 335 gasoline engine. Your auto ignorance reared its head again when you said you only knew of $1800 dollars tax incentives. The reason: the tax incentive to buy an alternative fuel vehicles was on a sliding scale. When BMW initially brought over the 335d to the states, the government gave initial tax credits of $3500 dollars. It stayed at that rate for several months, then was reduced. The government can't keep offering the same incentive from day 1 to 18 months later. (They also did this sliding scale on the Toyota Camry hybrid years ago - my sister bought one). So while the incentive in your area maybe $1800; my neighbor bought his diesel when the incentive was originally offered (so he would get full advantage of the tax break). You read bits and pieces; you should do your homework more thoroughly and you might understand a little about cars (Torque vs HP; Alternate Fuel Tax Incentives for Cars)

the only way your friend got $3500 is if he was using Cash for Clunkers, which was available to many cars during this time. BMW's standard incentives (given to alt energy vehicles, on a sliding scale, phasing out over time) were $900 and $1800 credits depending on the models, all of which are currently phased out IIRC. I have researched many articles on this all saying the same thing. If you are going to impugn my research skills, please provide your own proof.

As for your insisitence that hp doesn't matter, only torque, again this is a diesel lover's argument, without any basis in reality. Unless you plan on towing a 10,000 pound boat with your 335d. Modern TDIs make gobs of torque, yet still not enough to get the car moving, hence the slower 0-60 times. O yes I forgot, those times conveniently don't matter. Except when they do.

Not true; he got a $3500 tax credit because it was in the beginning of alternate tax credit period; you really should change your userid to: "the-Exaggerator10" (who really should research better).

but you still cant prove your point. And until you do, we just have to believe you and your imaginary friends. which i choose not to do since all the facts say otherwise. And I know plenty about the realtionship between hp and torque. Bottom line is that diesels cant make enough hp, even with turbos to accelerate.

BTW: Based on your replies, you really don't know a thing about Torque vs HP or your light bulb would go on; obviously it doesn't burn at all on this subject.

Every diesel I have had (3) has been noisey, smelly, cost a big premium to purchase, cost a fortune to maintain with expensive oil changes, filters, water serparator and filters, weak performance, and dreadful poor reliability in very cold temperatures.
NEVER again will I even consider a diesel.