Why do European luxury cars have such low quality ratings?

See two discussions going on with subject matter:

http://www.autospies.com/news/Whats-wrong-with-American-cars-7142/

http://www.autospies.com/news/Like-American-cars-7197/

"I know people will protest the credibility of any report that does not coincide with their preferences, but according to JD Power (and they're not alone), American cars rank right up there with the best of them and these so-called elite brand names are not exactly piling up points for quality."

For JD Power Study, cut and paste this link:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/07/20/015420.html

Many American cars do more than hold their own. GM for instance has a few aspects of technology and advancement which need to be noted. In particular, the Corvette/XLR platform heralds head-up display, magnetic shock, good reliability and power all at great prices and with details that no cars anywhere in their class can state.

Corvette, as a prime example , especially Z06, stands out.

When's the last time someone knew of an import with 500 plus horses, priced under a $100K, that did not even suffer from a gas-guzzler's tax? Anyone? How about an under $70K car that requires at least a $150K plus Euro sports car to even *consider* competing with it in performance?

Considering performance for the price, Gallardo has more power, with 492 horsepower (well more than the 395-hp Ferrari 360 Modena or the 456-hp Porsche 911 GT2), but it has all-wheel drive as well.

Still, this $175,000 Lambo learns the performance to price lesson from this $65,000 Z06.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeilt-Veuqg&search=C6%20Corvette%20vs

Even the base model has its way with this Euro machine right in its own backyard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOHWNm6x3h4&search=C6%20Corvette%20vs

The people that buy the expensive cars, don't read the manuals, they get confused, and cyr, complaing. Read that one Detroit News review of the Q7, if they just read the manual, they would have not problems.

Its Audi's fault

It’s all about focus. German brands built their reputation on fun to drive machines…that is where the R&D continues to go; and when critical decisions need to be made, fun is typically chosen over reliable; because reliable usually means boring.

Take Audi’s turbo-charged 4 bangers. Rave reviews in magazines from its low-end torque and fun-to-drive factor; but check Consumer Reports and you’ll often find a solid black mark next to the motors, indicating way below average reliability. Japanese brands would (typically) never choose the unreliable turbo route, and opt for a longer lasting and boring 4cylinder for its comparable class of cars… because that’s how they built their reputation.

If BMW’s next model was marketed as the “Ultimate Reliable Machine” they would alienate their customer base. If they said “Well, we reduced the RPM redline because we found the engine lasts longer,” the only thing car magazines, and prospective buyers would care about is that its slower. Period…. So what’s a car company to do?

Even “not as fun/good looking as brand B” means a loss of customers for European vehicles. European manufacturers know their customers would rather push their prestigious and fun cars down the road then be caught dead in a marginally more reliable Ford. When you must stay on the bleeding edge of performance, there will always be bugs to work out.

I think what has been said here makes sense. The BMW's, MB's, and Audi's are more for the drive rather than reliability and that is why they sell. Also I don't think that many people read the manuals anyway, which is more important in the luxury cars since there is more technology. Also I know that the Japanese brands are really conservative compared to the Germans. What my real concern is whether the Euro brands are ignoring the reliability factor because it is not their selling point or is it because of they are always ahead of everyone in design?

I have to agree with Kart1. One time when i was 16(which was about 4 years ago) i had to drive my 1991 Toyota Camry about 50 miles with out oil (because a major oil line came off and dumped every bit of oil on the road and i had no way of getting oil for it) i took it to a Toyota dealer that also has a shop in it to work on cars the next day. After the dude got done examining the engine, he came to the waiting room and i swear, it was like an ER doctor coming into the waiting room to tell the family of someone that they couldnt save him. He asked me if i was looking to buy a new car cause he believed that the Camry wouldn't last a month. The car lasted me 1.5 years without giving me anymore problems. it still ran great, and i was still able to race it just the same with the same times and speeds. the only difference was it had a knock. i only stopped driving it cause the transmission locked up on me and so i just got a eclipse. So i know japan makes very quality cars. People need to learn how to take care of their cars and European makers need to start making tougher and stronger engines.

Chewy:

So let me try to understand your logic: people who buy Audi, BMW, Mercedes don't read their owners manual, thus they are confused and therefore don't know how to operate their car and therefore rank their auto "unreliable"....hmmmm...okay...so people who buy an equally priced Lexus, Infiniti or Acura do read their owners manual, are not confused, know how to operate thier car and thus rank it as above average reliability (year after year)?

Well, sure the cars have real problems like all cars, but I think that some amount of the bad satisfaction/problems happen when the people don't understand the technology. Read that Q7 review from a while back, the reviewers were freaking out because they didn't read the manual and spend a few minutes understanding the technology. If those people baught the car, they would have given it low satisfaction/quality ratings even tough there weren't any real problems, only problems that could have been avoided with some familirization time.

I can attest to the quality problem that plagues European cars. I've owned six of the over the course of the last nine years, and if the Caddy CTS is half as good as they say it is, I won't own any more! BMW interiors in particular don't wear very well over time. The leather has peeled and the stitching tends to undo. The Americans have come a very long way and whether one wants to believe it or they are a force to be reckoned with because they are getting better and better.

So does this mean that Hyundai is the best car in the world, because they always win this... maybe 2morrow, you'll start to see Royalties around the world in Hyundais... Just maybe.... Since they keep winning the initial quality awards...

I can attest to the fact that my Audi and BMW and 1 of the MB hasn't had problems at all, but one of them had a handful of problems... I think its just the pool of people that you get...

hey, who saw the new Caddy Ads about the CTS...
ALL-AMERICAN (invincibility Cloak, its made in GERMANY)... ha ha...

1. People that buy German cars have greater requirements to make them happy. If you enjoy a Motel 6 then a Holliday In is amaizing. If you are use to the Four Seasons then anything less is a let down.

2. Japaneese make good electronics and do it well.

3. BMWRocks opens his mouth again for all to hear. ZZZZZZZZZZZ

4. Preception is reality - If you have a Honda and it has problems you don't say Honda isn't reliable (like my roommates old car that had several problems that I can remember) but when i talked her into a Jetta and she had one small issue she is convinced that she has the biggest Lemon.

There is a problem with "gost issues" more in German cars then anything else. The A8 would have been the top car on the JD power list if it had 6 more survays back. It wasn't that long ago it was in the middle of the pack.
The biggest difrence Audi focused on teaching customers how to use their car and the benifits of the features and hence the big jump.

Do you think that any Lexus driver that just likes the fast engine, chrome dials and lazyboy seats worrys about gadgets?

Jovi- I think it's the other way around...Hyundai execs are capitalizing (like Toyota) so they can become royalties.

Do u mean that chevy is more reliable than other euro comapnies??? NOWAY, coz i used to have a chevy caprice ss 2004 full options and just after 6 months it has daily problems that cant b fixed. The doors wouldnt close, the brakes make sound although i changed them 3 times. Its bull$$$$. I sold it after i fixed the doors and after 2 months the guy called me and said that the doors arnt closing AGAIN. After this I swore that i will never buy an american car in my life. LOL

people expect more. in say a ford taurus, you shove the glovebox a bit hard and it sits funny, you blame yourself. in a merc, you shove the glovebox a bit gard and it sits funny, you blame merc. people weild more power the more expensive the car.
m53r, i think most people with say an ordinary car wouldn't bother getting the brakes changed if they squealed, they'd put up with it. the mor expensive the car the more the buyer is likely to know so they'd know when something was wrong, and whether it could be fixed.

European particularly German automakers sell a lot of base models in Europe - cloth seats, bad radios etc.etc. In the US they load-up the vehicles with all kinds of technology and luxury items. Results are that in the US (i.) electronics are overloaded and less reliable (ii.) the automakers don't give as much thought to driver interface issues with the complex technology - since Europeans don't buy much of it - and we get low customer rankings for i-Drive (iii.) US customers can never get enough / large enough cupholders.

GENTLEMEN, GENTLEMEN, THE ANSWER TO THE ABOVE QUESTION IS...GREED! PAY LESS TO YOUR SUPPLIERS, STILL CHARGE $100K FOR YOUR PRODUCT AND POCKET THE DIFFERENCE. FOLLOW THE MONEY.

You can also look at it from a German economic point of view. German cars started degrading shortly after the reunifaction of the two Germany's. The government invested heavily into the Eastern Germany and this brought about heavy changes to the prosperous Western half. I won't go into detail, but the change forced German company's to cut back financially and I suppose this could have affected the reliability of German cars.

How?

Take a look at DCX for example. When Jurgen Schremp came to power, he immediately put forth his plans of COST-CUTTING. Where did he cut costs? R&D was one department. Hence, the drop in Mercedes reliability, and some of the cheaper interiors we saw from that period.

Similar things happened at BMW, namely shortening of R&D times. Thankfully, things seem to be improving for German cars.

flychronic... what are you talking about? nobody is becoming royalty...

Jovi - u mentioned royalty...not me

The public in general has been duped with the survey out there. You need to read them for what they are worth overall. YES a Lexus is more reliable, than a BMW in JD Powers, but do you really know by how much? No one can tell because the study throw all problems into a singular category and coins them as issues with absolutely no regard to severity.

Example: the avg Lexus statistically will have 1.39 issues per car over 3 years of owner ship (no you really can’t have a .39 issue).. The BMW has a 2.25 issue avg. over the same time span. That means roughly one more issue over 36 months.

To the paranoid that 1 issue will loom over their head like an axe ready to chop it off. To the informed that one issue is nothing special well within the statistical variables. The Lexus you buy might have zero issues or three. Same for the BMW. The reporting method is flawed on purpose to give a statically accurate figure without any true factual accountability. The facts are available only if you pay for them, which few consumers will ever do.

The reason for the statistical differences? European cars typically have a higher parts counts compared to say a Lexus. Any QA person will tell you the higher the parts count the higher probability of issues. So if you make a more complex vehicle your QA has to be of exponentially higher standards than a lower parts count vehicle to maintain the same reliability standard. It is all a matter of mathematics and QA.

Kart1- You need to read the actual survey criteria. The IQS is VERY deceiving.

It is for the 1st 90 days only. I will give you an example of how deceiving it can be.

You buy two different brand in the first 90 days Brand A has computer failure and leaves you one the side of the road waiting for a tow truck for 2 hours in 100 degree heat.

Brand B has no mechanical issues, however the cup holders in the front don’t fit the 64 oz Big Gulp in there and floor mats in the back tend to curl on the edges.

Which rankings higher in the IQS? The car that left you on the side of the road!

I'll give you personal experience. In the last several years, my wife and I have owned: 2002 MB CLK 430, 1998 BMW 540, 1991 Acura Integra GS, 1985 Audi GT Coupe, 2002 Lexus RX300, 1999 Lexus RX 300, 1995 Honda Accord LS. Initial or long term, and irrespective of performance, the ownership experiences have been night and day. We've been in the shop less with all four the Lexus/Honda/Acura cars together than with any one of the German cars. The CLK was in the shop for electrical problems 4 times within the first 3 months and several of the features simply failed to work sometimes. The 540 was a delight to drive, but it too spent a healthy amount of time out, with 2 problems rendering it undrivable in 4 years, along with minor electrical problems, such as taillights shorting out 17 times in the same period and the inside door handle breaking off in my hand. The Audi was the best of the bunch, but still required at least one or two unexpected service trips each year. Wth all of the Japanese cars, three trips for "problems" in a combined 17 years of ownership. I need my car to get to and from work. Add to that the difference in how I am treated at the Lexus dealer, compared with the relative disdain I experience at the BMW and MB dealers here in Chicago, and when it came time to buy something new this spring, I ended up with and IS350. It might not handle as well as a BMW or have the cache of a MB, but it's a hell of a lot of fun to drive and I expect that I'll be able to do that, rather than weatching it be towed to the shop. Oh, and I read the owner's manual.

robsw - well your story could be any name plate but your points are valid. The big problem is IQS has been changed on purpose to give a higher issue rate and is now very objective. This was done because the actual defect rate has dwindled to where there are very few points between first and last. JD Power needs to sell stats to make money so they jostle the numbers to show a bigger difference. The problem is the are not really relevant to quality as they seem to imply.
For example if you do your research and find exactly what you are looking for, typically you will have a low issue rate. You walk in and don’t do your research you get a higher level of issues because you certain unrealistic expectations. or had no clue.

A friend bought a Honda Pilot, They drove the car bought it, now the complain the rear door handle pull is out of reach of his petite wife’s arm stretch, the rear seat fold forward (not flat) and the variable cylinder engine drones at 50 mph as it cycles between economy and regular mode.

To them these are issues, however if they performed the research, like actually drove the car under the droning circumstances, asked how the seats folded, and actually look at the rear door pull. They would have known these are annoyances and either accepted them or chose another car. Only one of these of these issues can be really considered quality related (the droning), however all of them are counted as quality issues to JD Power. There is no one design that will fit all and as you can see the relative vertical stature of an individual can affect your “quality’ score.

An issue does not mean a repair, as commonly perceived.

Rupert - Expectations are the key. If your demographic your car appeals to is less demanding you will get a lower issue level. If the clientele is more demanding your issues will resolve. It really has nothing to do with "Quality" it is more "Preference".

As I had written in another thread, I have had several Mercedes. I drive an '05 E500 right now. I love these Benzes, but truth be told, myself and many other MB owners I know (even according to our own car clubs and internal magazines) will tell you that their cars are not always strangers to the shop. My car is just over a year old and its been in constantly!

Far too many in this thread are looking to dismiss this as over-expectancy for German cars (in this case, MB), and others say that the cars are over-engineered and in leading the technical envelope, they run into electrical gremlins to the ultra- particular MB owner, etc. Others still are too focused on breaking down the angle of perception via JD Powers, as if this was all about an "initial quality control" slant through a given magazine and no more.

Ah, sounds convenient, but not so fast.

These technical gremlins are not nearly the entirety of what's failing in these cars. Even simple things, totally unrelated to advanced electronics are failing. Basic mechanics, normal drivetrain areas, transmissions, wiper motors, leaking sunroofs, etc. are all in the mix. I belong to MBCA and I hear it all on a regular basis. I have experienced these things myself. My MB friends often admit to each other how we fig the neighbor to not allow them to know the car is in the shop again because of the embarrassment we'll face on having the elite brand that can't find its way out of the shop.

The experiences of 'robsw' are not at all the exception to the rule. They are in fact, sadly, the norm.

Once again, our internal MBCA magazine emphasized these issues and has come forth with several articles (right out of Montvale, NJ - MB corporate office in USA) apologizing for these mishaps and vows to improve. As I said, they even furnished a specially number for us club members to escalate our matters beyond the non-member as a token of their appreciation for our continued patience with financing their pricey mechanically challenged vehicles until they remedy these issues overall.

If MB can fess up to this, why is it that sites like this have people doing gymnastics to dismiss these matters like the Johnnie Cochran's of the MB world? I love these cars, too, but let's not be so blindly partisan, so religiously consumed into brand loyalty to where passion deludes reason. A spade is sometimes a spade.

I appreciate many cars and do not hate any. I am just an honest MB owner. I have ardently defended MB upon other brand websites and vice versa. I value all cars for what they are. I just don't hide from the truth, nor speak apart from what what I know. These are matters of cup holders not sitting just right; they are about transmissions going into limp-mode several times a year, etc. It is what it is, by MB's own admission.

EDIT: That should read...These are ** NOT ** matters of cup holders not sitting just right; they are about transmissions going into limp-mode several times a year... :)

Allosaur: great comments - right on!

flychronic -

"Jovi- I think it's the other way around...Hyundai execs are capitalizing (like Toyota) so they can become royalties."

If I'm not mistaken, the last word of the sentence is... I don't know, but I copied this straight from your comment... Could someone help me out? I don't know what the last word says???

Rupert.

actually not only i changed the brakes, i changed the whole tires. Still there was the same annoying sound. My conclusin= chevy is rubbish (or maybe our dealer)!!