AUDI vs. LEXUS

Oh, and just wanted to add that there sure seems to be a lot of Audi talk lately...everywhere!

I believe that the reason why Lexus is successful in the US because it has focused it self on being an American luxury car, while Audi is more of a global luxury car. While this has made Audi much more successful in the rest of the world, it has just started to catch on in the US and it will take some time. Another note this is why Lexus is struggling outside the US, because it is an American luxury car.

Audi vs Lexus (Really no competition, because they are not in the same field right now. This article should have been: A4 vs. IS)

Audi = Sport and Performance
Lexus = Luxury, Quality and Reliability.

Oh God, get ready for another flame war. Why can't people realize that they are both good cars that have their own strengths and weakness'.

00JT - your right, this is beginning of another war.

Ok, I'll change the "Sport and Performance" to "Sportier" when compared to Lexus (excluding the IS).

These endless posts from Audi fans (BTW, I do appreciate the brand)comparing their cars to BMW/BENZ/ETC. is similar to a group of Timex wearers comparing their watches to a Rolex. Audi is a good car but not quite a BMW or Benz...and thats okay.

I agree with Kart's first post.

Lexus offers American luxury which works here, but flops in Europe. They don't want powerful V6 or V8 engines, but smaller engines and diesels.

The Germans focus on being global players and have to adopt their products for various markets.

So while for example Lexus can offer a 306-hp IS350, Mercedes has to watch out how powerful their 3.5-l V6 is because of things like emissions and power output taxes, which exist in Europe or Asia. The same applies to all other European companies.

Last year, Audi spent the least amount of money out of all manufacturers in America. Only 101.4 million dollars, Ford spent the most with 984.6 million. It seems that people buy what ads show. I wander what the other premium manufactureres spent on ads.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/20/automakers-drop-mad-cash-on-advertising-in-2005/

Someone please explain to me how in the hell Lexus can be more prestigious than Audi, BMW, or MB? This really just shows you how ignorant and clueless American buyers are when it comes to automotive engineering.

Personally, I equate prestige with heritage, engineering accomplishments (engines, diesel technology, innovation, performance brands, etc), and not marketing ploys. This is why Lexus has been so successful here through their marketing campaign--just as the author wrote, Americans are very impressionable.

Interesting too how the ploy has been, and will be,unsuccesful in markets where people actually know about the car they're buying.

1995e34:

I think your logic is flawed, crucially flawed.

First of all, Audi's sophisticated Torsen AWD is leagues ahead of anything you'll find in the competition--just look at how long they've been engineering and perfecting it. Every single comparison test I've seen backs up this claim--Quattro is simply unstoppable in snow, rain, and ice.

Audi unfortunately, stomps all over BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the world of racing. More specifically at LeMans.

Their passenger cars have something to be desired though

e34:

But see, if Lexus badged their cars as Toyota's (as they should), the brand wouldn't be as successful, because, according to an article I read, about half of Lexus owners don't even realize they're driving a Toyota! This is the kind of clientele Lexus caters to--mindblowingly stupid ignorant fools.

Even my friends in Nagoya, Japan that I visited on my recent trip back in May said Lexus was a complete joke and that they'd never own one. THIS FROM ACTUAL JAPANESE PEOPLE. I think that speaks for itself.

blah blah blah blah blah blah...

The problem with Audi is simple. All their vehicles look the same. The A6 is a little bigger than the A4, and the A8 is bigger than them both. The overall look hasn't changed much in the last 15yrs. Plus, the comparable Lexus models have much better performance than their Audi counterparts. Five years ago, this may not have been true but as of now, the Lexus models are better than Audi.

Does it really matter that Toyota manufactures the Lexus? The bottom line is that the Lexus/Toyota is a superb vehicle. Don't forget, the Lexus is luxury at a bargain so while its part Toyota, you don't pay full luxury price. Furthermore, no one has decided not to buy a Mercedes b/c of their partnership with Chrysler. Of course not.

Just wait for the Lexus 460LS and the 600h. The Mercedes/BMW empire may fall.

huu76:

Lexus is winning only in the US. In other markets they're not taken seriously, at all.

Sure Germans buy Japanese cars--ones that are smaller, more economical, and less expensive--not luxury ones. The reason for this is they realize that putting leather, wood, and a host of other features into a car, slapping a "L" on it, and calling it a luxury car doesn't change the fact that it has no heritage, little innovation, and is merely a copy of the real thing.

The fact that even Japanese don't want a Lexus speaks volumes.

hue76 that may be true in the USA but Audi is doing just fine worldwide and the US market is starting to take off

Will:

The problem with your ideology is that you expect the competition to stand still while Lexus continues to release products.

That's not going to happen. Audi's influx of cars within a wide array of segments, coupled with BMW's and MB's lasting legacy and cachet, will make it much more difficult for Lexus to ascertain the level of prestige globally, that they have in the US.

Globally speaking, I see Audi, which is already a very well established international brand, moving up in prestige faster than Lexus; a knockoff, or more appropriately, a bootleg version of the real thing.

Audiman4 - your ignorance makes me laugh...I was just in Korea last month and guess who's #1 there? Lexus is and in just 3 years, Audi was gaining momentum and after Lexus hit the market, Audis are hardly visible. This is from a country who hate the Japanese and view MB abd BMW as the ultimate status symbol. Just wait until the Chinese start buying Lexus...who needs Europe?

1995e34 - What's your logic behind your statement that a car company can't be taken seriously with out a RWD model? B/C RWD is the best? Yea for flat out performance......but you need to look futher beyond the 0-60 mark and realize that there is a whole lot more track than just the first couple hundred yards.

Audi has dominated the track for years and it's all due to Quattro. Which is standard in most models...not an option. And some cars could actually benifit from AWD if they were offered with it.

For some reason there is a common though with all of the Lexus people that they [Lexus] is going to take over the world and be this huge powerhouse brand and just topple BMW and MB. Right there your ignorance is beaming with neon lights. Anyone that thinks that BMW and MB will ever topple is just stupid.

I am not going to disagree that Lexus will continue to grow, as long as they adapt to each market. When will you guys start to realize that the European market will requrire smaller put potent engines for the masses (with still a market for AMG and M cars and Audi S's).

Lexus will never topple anyone, they might become more global but that's about it.

Germans buying Japanese cars is a weak argument for Japanese car domination. Of course Germans buy Japanese cars, just like we buy Japanese instead of America. No big deal. It's called free market economy and the freedom of choice.

Japanese cars are cheaper than their German competitors, in Europe too. Germans also buy French, Italian and Korean cars. The freedom of choice...

the only good japanese cars in europe are the suvs, and a few small cars (civic, yaris).the japanese don't sell many saloons here, as they are unfashionable, i think it is only the accord that is sold here (even then it's the acura version but badged as a honda). nissan are doing almost exclusively suvs, toyota have lost their way and aren't very highly regarded (below nissan and honda and ford).
the thing is, japanese cars (mainly toyota) have only got a rep for reliability, honda made their rep for sharp design, nissan for suvs.
the thing is, if we want say a small car (yaris sized), we have a huge choice. we have the polo, the yaris, the clio, the 207, the ibiza, the fabia, punto, the c2/c3, plus all the very small city cars, 107, aygo, c1, panda plus all the korean cars (savvy, swift). and then up one more size and there's an even bigger choice. focus, golf, leon, megane, civic, corolla, 307, c4, stilo, etc. then there are the mini-mpv versions of most of those cars, like the modus, meriva, zafira, scenic. we have such a huge choice of good cars that people can choose simply on whihc delearship is closer. japanese cars don't get picked because their only good at one thing, whereas a focus handles brilliantly and is reliable and has a great interior.
the japanese cannnot dominated such a varied market.

Lexus does an excellent job marketing to the "Sheep" in America. With our excellent highways, low speed limits, and the desire to show your success. The American public in general wants "Show and Flash".

In Europe and Japan where Lexus is not having such success, the consumer want performance and individuality to back up the name plate. On many models in the Lexus line they are not the leaders in those categories. Hence the lackluster sales in those markets.

I guess the best way to say it is:
In Europe and other markets, the consumer wants a “Diamond” and no less. They want the original and will accept no substitutions. The real deal in other words.

In America, we "sheep" see a Cubic Zirconia, a very pretty, shiny, imitation that costs a lot less. We get suckered in by the shine and price and settle for the imitation.

We are a land of $30,000 millionaires. Those who want to show they have made it without really fulfilling all of the criteria completely. I am all for purchasing whatever vehicle you can afford, but to rebadge a lower model by adding trim and body panels, and calling it a "luxury" plate is primarily a marketing scheme we have been sucked into.

I guess that is why a BMW is a "Premium" maker and a Lexus is a "Luxury" maker. Two different segments that really can't compete.

1995e34- I nearly fell off my chair laughing at your remark! "you can't be taken seriously as an automaker having never produced a rwd automobile."

No bubba, you can't be taken seriously until your AWD was banned by DIFFERENT racing sanctioning bodies as an "Unfair Advantage"

correction:

by DIFFERENT racing should be
by 4 DIFFERENT racing

PlanoA4:

I live in Plano as well and happen to drive an A4! Small world. I do notice though that even in Plano, Lexus is more popular, even though Audi shares the Porsche dealership, and you would think that would equate prestige.

But the people Lexus sells to, is the old, uneducated, poseurs who really KNOW nothing about the cars they drive. No one in my generation wants a Lexus--they stopped buying them after the original IS300 was discontinued.

Audi definitely has a connection with the under 35 age group.

Commonsense:

I wanted to address your claims about Audi not being considered a performance brand due to the fact that in your opinion, a number of models underperform next to the competition.

All I have to say is, S4 and RS4. End of discussion.

What is the "real deal"? The "real deal" means different things to different car buyers. To say that Audi, BMW and MB are the only "real deal" is silly.

To determine what the "real deal" is you must first assess what are the "real" needs of car buyers. You could say that car customers are categorised into potency, utility, adventure, liberation, prestige and status buyers.

Not many people buy cars today based on rational parameters like say, fuel economy, safety and engine displacement. Instead it's about what the car owner would like to convey to the external world.

To suggest that only German cars are "real" cars and all other car makers are just knock-offs is ridiculous. Obviously Lexus is appealing to a huge segment in North America.

Toyota has a luxury brand because they saw it as a profitable venture. After the success of Acura in the US, Toyota wanted to get into the action. GM had a luxury brand and so did Ford, so why not Toyota. No matter what Toyota came out with next (originals or rebadged Toyotas) they simply did it because there was a demand. Japanese Luxury vs. German Luxury discussions can go on forever.

Why shouldn't they appeal to vanity? That's what car buying is all about.

Lexus isn't fabricating any lies about who they are - and they don't hide the fact that their parent company is Toyota. The Lexus product line simply caters to a different segment of society... people that prefer a more "upscale" (and I use that term loosely) environment. Salesmen in the showroom at Lexus dress up more than the salesmen at Toyota. The guy that shops at Toyota doesn't want to deal with some snob in a 3 piece suit. Whereas the guy that shops at Lexus and is going to spend $50-$100k on a car wants just that. It's all about the experience.

Is Starbucks coffee the best? Are all the others knock-offs? Why can Starbucks charge $4 a coffee? It comes down to Brand and "experience". Whether they call the size "venti, grande, tall" or "small, medium, large" they mean the same thing.

1995e34 - Quattro Outlawed in:
DTM racing after one year
ALMS after one year
IMSA (GTO)
FIA (Super Touring Series)

I don't recall any series where RWD was outlawed because it was an unfair advantage.

BTW- AWD is outlawed in Formula One though audi did not cause that stir.

If you think this site is anything to go by, u would imagine Audi to be all the rage in the US. But in US, no one cares about audi. Audi simply cannot compare to lexus, which on the desirability quotent is second only to MB. On the other hand, Audi is even less desirable than brands like Acura and Infiniti, and just one step up Volvo. Perhaps, Audi marketing should only be tuned towards potential acura and infiniti buyers for now.

starfox:

Your cretinous, moronic argument is a perfect example of how many American luxury buyers think.

If you had ANY knowledge of automotive engineering, technology, and innovate development you'd know that prestige/desirability doesn't equal the best.

From an engineering standpoint, Audi, as well as BMW and MB have been responsible for an exceedingly large amount of the technology you see in cars today...technology that Lexus copies.

Case in point: The Hybrid system tested, designed, and show in prototype in the late 1980's and self-parking mechanism that was developed by VW/Audi.

The reality is that from a global perspective, where consumers are actually educated, Audi/BMW/MB RULE both through technology, desirability, and prestige. Lexus on the other hand is just trash that only a fool would buy.

Audiman4, (Plano 11th best city in the US to live in)- As you know the "Official Taxi of Plano" is a Lexus. Actually the Plano Lexus dealer is one of the leading dealers in the nation and they do a very good job. But you are correct; the typical buyer of a Lexus in our area is not educated in the DNA of their purchase. Their expectations are that of Toyota reliability, with more bells and whistles. That is fine, the problems are when they are compared to “Premium” cars.

Simply not in the same league. However since that owner typically is less knowledgeable of their own purchase DNA they “assume” they are genetically equal. Kind of like comparing a Canary to a Hawk, one sings a pretty song, the other is an instinctual predator.

The neighbor behind me just bought a new ES350 and all she can say is I “love the car, I take it to the dealer twice a week for the free car wash!" She drives almost 8 miles to the dealer for a wash twice a week. Her previous car was Volvo wagon with 230,000 miles. I asked why she went to Lexus, her response was “it was inexpensive and it looks just like a Mercedes!”

Like I said some demand a quality diamond and are prepared to pay the price, others are happy with a shiny cubic zirconia imitation. To each their own.

1995e34 Yep you are right Plano, TX. No our winter weather typically consists of 4 days of sheet ice a year. Even the 4x4 stay off the streets. But we have torrential rains in the spring as well. Though you guys have had your fair share up there this year so you should know the issues that provide. AWD has benefits in even Texas. Just put the car in the rain or on a track and you see the difference immediately.

Funny to see some others comments on how an AWD handles from people who have never driven one, much less at speed. I love the magazine samurais, so educated by what their notions are vs. actual truth. No problem they are the ones losing out.


comment on the AWD bans- If it is indeed situtational where the AWD has the advantage in marginal conditions as you stated. I would "assume" more races are held in dry conditions than wet. So the "situations" still favor the RWD. If so why the ban? The FIA super touring series was primarily classmates the Audi competed in were BMW, and MB not FWD. Matter of fact all of the series it was banned in were primarily RWD series.

Loki- You are correct Lexus is about vanity, and they do not hide the fact of who they are. I guess the issue is, since they have great sales, they feel they are equal to the "Premium Marquees". They are not even close.

Planoa4 "Plano 11th best city in the US to live in"
what is the best city to live in? and what's the worst?

audiman,
You irate comments speak of your insecurities regarding Lexus. It is quite understandable. Afterall, Audi has been in the US longer than Lexus, and hasnt come close to attaining the same prestige level of Lexus. To skirt the issues of prestige, luxury, and reliability, all of which are the top factors for luxury buyers, you continue to ramble on nonsense such as heritage, engeenering superiorty, and innovation. Yeah, im sure a lot of luxury buyers in their 50s and 60s will be overcome with joy and make an impulse buy on an Audi A8 when you tell them of how Audi was the first to test the hybrid system in the 80s! Nuff Said

I'm an American and I am looking at Luxury cars in the 35-40k range. And I see the low end of BMWs, Audis and Lexuses as possible brands.

But since I've seen that Porche and Lexus were at the top of the J.D. Power Initial Reliability ratings, but BMW and Audi rate below industry average behind Ford, Chevy and even Nissan!

Now this ignorant American is thinking, "I don't want to pay a premium for a below average quality product."

Am I wrong to think this? Are heritage and engineering that important if they are making cars with below average quality?

Part of my ignorance actually helps German automobiles. I've had germanophiles like my uncle tell me for years that Japanese cars are crap but since Porsche is #1 on the list and VW is somewhere near the bottom of the barrel for quality, being german doesn't seem to impress me anymore.

jtgct, i live in west london (ie the most expensive bit), and i agree totally. the only lexus i see is the rx, i see more bentleys than lexus'. porsches are as common as fords.
rich people don't like japanese cars, it's simple.

huu76, we don't get any american fords. no suvs or trucks at all. no 500 or taurus or escape or anything.
we get the ka, fiesta, fusion (not a saloon, a weird high-up fiesta) the NEW focus (not the facelifted old one you get), the mondeo, the c-max, the s-max, the galaxy.
i believe that you get precisly none of those vehicles.
in fact ford of europe has more in common with fords premium group (land rover aston jag and volvo) than america ford.

As referenced in a July 10th article from BusinessWeek, a recent quality report for the German market shows Audi made big gains in vehicle quality and customer service, and scored high in vehicle appeal. BusinessWeek mentions "Audi's quality ranking alone jumped 21 points in Germany from 2005, while the industry as a whole improved by only 6 points." The report is based solely on the opinions of current car owners. But when Germans are asked to vote on which brand they like the most regardless of what they drive now, Audi fared even better. BusinessWeek adds "In the 2006 reader survey by German magazine Auto Motor & Sport, Audi swept the rankings, overtaking both BMW and Mercedes for best car in the compact (A3), executive sedan (A6), and luxury sedan (A8) categories."

starfox:

If you interpreted anything that myself and the other posters have stated, prestige does not equal the best. Period. Prestige is simply how well recognized and prominent a particular company is within their sector.

To mention Lexus and prestige in the same sentence is an absolute joke, and I stand by my earlier statements about ignorant Americans. No performance brand, no V12 engine, no racing heritage, no true philosophy.

Audi on the other hand demonstrates all of the above--and one reason they aren't as recognized, is due to the fact that they spend very little money on advertising in the US. Most Audi buyers are educated and moneyed (Audi's buyers are the wealthiest of any lux company) enough to know this for themselves.

And I'm going to back up what Rupert said--the true wealthy do not buy Japanese imitation. Why drive a bootleg version of the real thing?

Interestingly, those who buy Audi's tend to be less into image, even though Audi's garner as positive much attention as a BMW or Benz.

Buying MB/BMW/Audi to an American is like drinking evian water. We are not buying Heritage, we want a car that has Rock Solid reliability, and an awsome dealership experience, great resale value, and should we ever fall out of warranty, we dont need to take out a second mortgage to fix our car. After all, it is a Toyota, the best Toyota money can buy. And that is saying alot. I feel like I get alot more for my money with the purchase of a rebaged Toyota than an un-reliable rich man's German Car, that probably wont be on the road for more than 10 years no matter how hard you try to keep it running. How many 87 or 89 Camry's do you see on the road today? Now thats Quality!!! As the average American Consumer, just how does this "Heritage" benefit me? You think im gonna choose my next car based on who invented the diesel engine?

Us Americans also love to be pampered. ie Dealership experience, and Silent, Powerful, Trouble-Free Luxury.

OOOOOhhhhhhhh!!!!, This audi A4 handles sooo well, who cares if after 3 years of ownership its now WORTHLESS! AAAAAhhhhh!!!, This MB E320 shure does have alot of heritage and prestige associated with it, who cares if the air vents feel like they were made from the cheapest plastic on earth!!! And the cup holders actually have some kind of aluminum foil looking stuff on them that just peels right off!!!


Lexus/Toyota = Quality Period.

Quality is worth a premium, who cares if the rest of the world has'nt noticed.

Will,nlbrito

plz shut up.

wats the difference between the toyota and a lexus? the badge. so enjoy driving ur super quality car toyota camry and hush.

Huu76 -"Simply by stating Europeans want a diamond (implying N.Americans are clueless) shows exactly why European brands will continue to underestimate Toyota/Honda. From the sounds of it, Ford is doing all right over there. OMG, a Ford? Never thought I'd hear Europeans wanting to buy something from socalled know-nothing Americans."

The typical American purchaser of a Lexus looks at the relation to Toyota as a plus, which is unique. Never heard anyone say "man my Huyundai is related to a Kia!"

Seems odd, but does show how strong the Toyota quality association is. Anyway the typical Lexus clientele has little clue as to the mechanics of their vehicle, and probably doesn't care. The enthusists that buy Lexus really don't but the toyota clones (IMHO), they buy the unique models becuase they offer something different. But by an large the bulk of the american Lexus units sold are to the sheep.

Rupert - Top 100 cities in the US are, (drum roll please)
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/top100/

oh god number 3...sugar land, tx. love it.

Plano,

In regaurd to your comment about your neighbors recent purchase of an ES; the people that buy an ES are completely different for people that buy an IS. The ES is meant to be a flashier version of the Camry. Lexus doesn't deny that. But to refer to all Lexus' as a "Cubic Zirconia" is unfair. Look at their other models that aren't Toyota copies. I can't say that they're better than Audi without sparking a war, but give Lexus credit where credit is due. They are in the same league as Audi, BMW, and Mercedes.

Plano,

Speaking of flash value, consider this.

Why do people buy a Mercedes E500 when they can buy the Audi A6 4.2? The A6 has more power, better performance, and much better quality interior. All that and the A6 is still about 6k less than the E500. Still I see many more E500s than A6s. Go figure. Flash value applies to all brands, not just Lexus. IMO Mercedes is behind Audi nowadays.

clapping/cheering for Will

diablo69,

You are confused, I never said "American Cars" were any good. They probably fall behind the Koreans in quality. Thats why the best selling car in America is the Toyota Camry. (Built in America btw) That proves my point. The American consumer is the most savvy consumer in the world. They know quality when they see it.


Lexus = highest QUALITY luxury brand PERIOD.

Quality is the key word here. We you see something better, and cheaper, you buy it.

All these poor AUDI buyer trying so hard to make themselves feel a little better and still don't get it.

"Crap, I should've got a BMW!"

" Shit! at least that's a Mercedes."

Comparing AUDI to LEXUS or Infiniti is so misleading since these Jap brands has just started to marketing internationally and it's hard to say what'll happen in 10-15 years.
Everybody knows AUDI has the same problem w/ ACURA-----NO RWD! At least Lexus and Infiniti know to change to RWD for their premium brand. Keeping FWD in product line really makes AUDI an VW, no matter how much "quality" leather/plastic put into the interior. BTW, these "quality" doesn't even last!

And the quattro.... no way a competition to Nissan's ATTESA AWD nor EVO or STi... Wait to see the GT-R kills Porsche turbo at 1/2 price!

Get a BMW or Infiniti next time!

For all of the people who say that Audi is a car designed for other countries and Lexus was designed for the U.S., let me ask, where are you driving your car? I'm sure not over in Europe. That's why Lexus is the better choice for Americans. They are designed to do well in this country, not 50 other ones.

Are you people kidding me?! This is ridiculous, we all have our own opinions and thoughts about cars and brands, why are we fighting in the matter of opinion. Sure some people have facts, but who cares which one is the best, as long as you have what you want, shouldn't you be happy? I think both cars are great but designed for different categories.
Audi - Sports, performance
Lexus - Smooth, reliable

I'm a 27yr old woman living in Montreal CA..
This will be my 3rd car and absolutely want a convertible this time..I was debating between the A4, Lexus SC and I really like the g37 as well..
The A4 was my first choice, one of the thing that is stopping me is the fact that it is not a hard top..
I most definitely want something that is reliable, especially in the winter. I am planning on keeping this car for a while, so i want to make sure I'm making the right decision. I dont care much about speed, I just really want reliability.
I'm still not sure which one to choose but this has helped.. I have more to consider and hopefully will make the right decision..

AUDI cars are so unique. I shall not dare compare it to any other car... except maybe that the A4 is really a VW Jetta which is also a Skoda Octavia. The A6 is a VW Passat or Skoda Superb. The A3 is really a VW Golf/Rabbit which is actually produced in Mexico for the US market and not Germany, and also forms the basis for a Seat Ibiza and a Skoda Fabia. The list goes on...

I've also heard that the Japanese don't use their premium cars (i.e. Lexus) as taxis like the Germans do. Food for thought.

Anyway, they're all great cars, depends on individual taste and value for money. Lexus does it for me though and im live in Australia. Let's not discount Toyotas long heritage in automotive industry either.