2013 Lexus IS350 F Sport Defeats BMW 335i M Sport in Car and Driver Comparison Test!!

A reprint from a couple of weeks ago.

The BMW has is way fastest of the 3 cars tested. Better handling, far better MPG, but a very subjective opinion of the article writer prejudices the BMW. Everything revolves around the steering. Maybe the test car had a problem. But everything else on the BMW was superior to the other two cars.

Apparently you haven't driven/owned current 3 series. The engine is great, steering totally sucks, and I suspect it'll handle better. Nothing wrong with the test car.

The real trouble for BMW is when Jap MFR starts doing FI engine several years from now, or when ATS switches to an 8 speed gearbox.

They missed their monthly kisstukus payment!

no...lexus is still advertising on autospies and in car mags like crazy. at least 3 or 4 times more than the germans. finally some pay off for all that!

It has much better handling:
Turn-in is crisper in the Lexus than in either the BMW or the Cadillac, a fact borne out by its first-place slalom finish

Easier to control:
More important, the Lexus is utterly imperturbable. Bumps that send other cars skittering off-line or scrambling to maintain their course are absorbed and dispatched, but not kept completely hidden from the driver.

More comfortable & luxurious:
Additionally, the Lexus is lavishly, indulgently comfortable. Its front seats are an ergonomic feat, perfectly cupped and padded with no tangible break between back and bottom cushions, just one immaculate sweep of support from shoulders to thighs. Our drivers, trapped within a wide array of body types, unanimously swooned.

A more involving drive:
Its variable-ratio steering, seemingly overboosted and a touch slow in highway travel, comes alive on coursing two-lanes, quickening and taking on a pleasing heft. The brake pedal feels a tad touchy when commuting, but reacts more predictably under duress, better coordinating pressure to stopping power.

Sounds very objective to me?

lexus: 208 points
bmw: 207 points

statistically insignificant. stop trying to sell that design abortion.

the 3 main subcategories in the ratings:

overall vehicle: BMW won
powertrain: BMW won
chassis: cadillac won

lexus. not the best at anything really. ah mediocrity in an ugly package.

All the performance figures for the Caddy and Lexus are identical to a 328i. Maybe they should have just compared those, since a 335i flat gets up and walks away from the others.

JRobUSC, the result just goes to prove, again, that having the best straight-line performance does not guarantee a first place finish. The BMW M5 knows that lesson well, too, when it was compared to the Audi S6 and E63 AMG. Despite having better straight-line acceleration than the Audi S6, it finished in last place.

On "Fun To Drive", the Lexus and Caddy scored 22 points out of 25. The BMW was only 19 points (i.e., less fun to drive but the Bimmer fanboys think that straight-line acceleration is more important, lol). The Lexus also had significantly better steering feel, handling, ride, driver comfort and fit/finish. The BMW won on rebates (no wonder it sells so many cars).
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-5

Also interesting is this comparo on the margin of the C&D page:
2010 Audi S4 vs. 2009 BMW 335i.
First place: Audi S4, Last place BMW 335i.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2010-audi-s4-quattro-page-3

take out the subjective parts of the comparison in regards to their opinion of the interior and exterior styling ... The BMW wins, even with the the average steering. The BMW walks away from the other two cars and it is not even close in regards to performance. A full second to 60 mph, 1.5 to 2 seconds to 100 is huge, better fuel economy, roomier. handling difference

"handling difference"??? The difference is the BMW scored only 7 points out of 10, while the Lexus and Caddy scored 9 points!

Car and Driver is the world's largest car magazine, so their expert opinions do matter.

Car and Driver: "Verdict: Still good at everything, but no longer the best at much... the question on everybody’s mind was one vocalized by technical editor K.C. Colwell: “Is it possible that the BMW has the worst steering here?” With the F30, BMW wavered. This is the first 3-series that feels less thoroughly engineered than its competition. It’s competent, it’s spacious, it’s comfortable; but in comparison with other cars in its segment, the 3-series is undercooked... There’s more movement from both front and rear axles than expected, more than its predecessor exhibited and, notably, more than either the ATS or the IS displays. Even with the optional suspension, body control falters. Bumps that the Lexus absorbs and the Cadillac shrugs off with a single succinct compression and rebound make the BMW pitch and roll and fight to stay on-line. Compared with the other two cars here, the BMW feels immense and slow-witted. Its steering also seems comparatively lazy, too light and vague on-center; and what little feel there is to begin with disappears entirely in fast transitions... And that is what’s most damning: The M Sport is capable, but it’s not as engaging as either opponent. It seems to say to the driver, “Here, I’ll do it.” And it does, but without the grace of the Lexus or the thrill of the Cadillac. Driving should be a joint effort between machine and man, but here the driver is more along for the ride. In this grouping, it’s not the 3-series that delivers the exceptional experience"
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2013-bmw-335i-m-sport-page-3

Hmmm, this trend about the BMW 3 Seruies not being best at much has been around for a few years . The 2010 Audi S4 comprehensively beat the 2009 BMW 335i on almost every measure (see links), even though the tester chose the slower 6-speed manual instead of the S4's excellent dual-clutch transmission that would have blown away the 335i's automatic.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2010-audi-s4-vs-2009-bmw-335i2010-audi-s4-vs-2009-bmw-335i-results.pdf

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2010-audi-s4-vs-2009-bmw-335i2010-audi-s4-vs-2009-bmw-335i-powertrain.pdf

psst this is 2013 . When is the last time the Audi A4 bested the 328i sedan? Why not bring that comparsion up? Mine as well bring up the M3 since that is a comparison to the RS5 which has lost every comparison test.

I am expecting a 1000 word rebuttle adn for you to bring up the 2007 and maybe a 2004 Audi that bested the 3-series sedan.

Psst... this blog compares the BMW 335i sedan, not the 328i or M3. Your comment is irrelevant.

But since you asked...

Nurburgring:
- Audi RS5 7:59 min (driven by Horst von Sauma in sport auto's supertest)
- BMW M3 (E92) 8:05 min (driven by Horst von Sauma in sport auto's supertest)
- BMW M3 with Competition Package: No lap time posted, probably because it wasn't better than 8:05 min.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

Hockenheim:
- Audi RS5 1:14 min
- Audi RS5 1:14 min
- BMW M3 (E92) with Competition Package 1:14 min
- BMW M3 (E92) 1:14.30 min (driven by Horst von Sauma in sport auto's supertest)
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim_short.html

Heads are exploding, I need to sit down as all of the BMW-phile spin is making me dizzy.

2012 Audi S4 defeats 2012 BMW 335i x-Drive in this 2013 test by German car magazine Auto Motor und Sport:
The older Audi S4 still beat the newer 335ix in performance / acceleration, handling, engine, transmission, high quality cockpit, comfort and safety. The S4 reached 100 km/h (62 mph) in 4.9 sec versus the 335ix 5.2 seconds. The S4 reached 160 km/h (100 mph) in 11.6 sec versus the 335ix 12.6 seconds. The S4 reached 180 km/h in 15.0 sec versus the 335ix 16.4 seconds. The BMW scored points on its lower price, rebates and fuel consumption.

http://tinyurl.com/p9ved5v

http://tinyurl.com/nc5dfaz

http://tinyurl.com/pu2f6rn

On the Hockenheim race track (home of the F1 German Grand Prix): 2012 Audi S4 1:16 min versus 2012 BMW 335i 1:17.80 min (295th place) -- there were 56 other cars between the times of these two cars.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim_short.html

What do the facts say about the performance of the 335xi sedan vs the IS or the ATS? Not an opinion which is what you are actually quoting in regards to appearance yet the facts of the matter.

BMW 335xi sedan ... 4.6 seconds 0 to 60 , IS350 5.6 , ATS 5.6
* BMW 1 second faster

BMW 335xi sedan .... 11.8 seconds 0 to 100, IS350 13.8, ATS 13.5
* BMW 2 seconds quicker

Fuel Economy : BMW 2 mpg better

Space BMW is 54 up front and 42 rear ... IS350 55 front and 37 rear ... ATS 52 front and 39 rear ...

Handling . Lateral G .. BMW .89 , IS350 .85, ATS .91

Braking BMW 164 ft, ATS 163 ft , IS350 177 ft

*** How exactly is the Lexus or the Cadillac a better performance sedan except the subjective opinion? They say the handling feel more communicative in the Lexus or ATS, yet the figures show that the BMW is clearly the better handling and performance sedan.

So talk your way out of that one

Yes, yes, the BMW's straight line acceleration is the fastest, woohoo....

...then why is the BMW the slowest in the 610 ft slalom? The BMW's average speed was 45 mph through the slalom. The Caddy did it in 46 mph -- 1 mph faster than the BMW. The Lexus was the best at 46.6 mph -- 1.6 mph faster than the BMW. A Corvette ZR1 does the same slalom in 47 mph, a McLaren MP4-12C in 47.4 mph. These are facts from Car and Driver mag.

Clearly the Lexus loves being tossed, is more agile, more dynamic, responds quickly and is better at lane changes than the BMW. No wonder the Lexus and Caddy were rated significantly better at handling, steering and fun to drive.

The 335i just beat the S4 in a sportauto test...

Look at all these BMW fanboys such as BMW4meforever and JRobUSC quoting the 335i's superior performance figures in their attempt to discredit the opinon of Car and Driver, which is one of the world's most respected car magazines and one that named the 3-series to its '10 Best List' for 22 consecutive years.

Obviously, being the best in straight-line performance, fuel economy, interior room, handling and braking does not win a comparison test because the BMW 335i M Sport finished in second place behind the Lexus IS350 F Sport.

The BMW fanboys try to point out how it should only be the objective measures that determine comparison test results. Unfortunately, at least for them, a comparison test compares other details such as exterior/interior design, interior ergonomics, comfort etc.

Whether they disagree with the subjective results or not, it doesn't matter. A comparison test done by Car and Driver will always look at subjective categories to determine the winner because it clearly matters to them and they are the ones who get paid to compare cars and write about them.

The car manufacturers themselves often use their car's results in Car and Driver comparison tests for marketing purposes. If you check Audi's homepage right now, you will see the brand proudly displaying its 4 (Audi A6, S6, A7, S7) Car and Driver 10Best Winners.

Look at all these Audi fanboys such as Germannut and Satraini, desperately trying to bash BMW. Posting articles that have no mention of Audi, just to point out that BMW lost, and then rant on about Audi in the comments. Surely they must have something better to do? But no, as demonstrated above and on countless other articles they do not. They let insecurity consume them, and all of their time.

Germannut funny you didn't post the Edmunds review where the 328i beat the Is250?

bmwm6: Surely you must have something better to do than keep making up BS? But no, here you are again spewing more BS such as "posting articles that have no mention of Audi". Everyone can see that I posted articles comparing the defeated BMW 335i with the Audi S4.

I mentioned Audi's use of its inclusion in Car and Driver's annual '10Best' list for marketing purposes because it proves the importance of Car and Driver's reviews in the marketplace.

If Car and Driver was just some irrelevant and useless car magazine, Audi BMW and a ton of other car manufacturers wouldn't use its results for their own marketing purposes.

From a value perspective, I'd take the bimmer. Better performance, bigger back seat, higher prestige.

I have to regretably concur with the comments about the steering in the newer BMWs, it has gotten away from performance for fuel economy I would imagine... I imagine that can be adjusted with future releases...

Audi fanboy here, just wanted to chime in that the BMW is the clear winner here. just because the "journalist" doesnt have what it takes to drive a fast car quickly in a slalom, doesnt make the car inferior.

slightly off topic rant: if you go back to many of the old Audi vs BMW comparison tests from years ago, time and time again, journalists would use an Audi with all seasons vs a BMW with summer rubber. the cards were usually stacked against Audi until recent years. the main reason you see publications showing Audi doing well today is because the cars being sent to them for testing are now also wearing summer rubber. now back to the original topic.

the BMW has more power, better brakes, stickier tires, and you want me to believe that it CANT slalom... if you wanted me to believe the ATS can out do the BMW with its lightweight and stuff then sure. but trying to sell me that the Lexus, with its inferior tires, engine, and weight can out do both of these cars??? give me a break... this win was purely subjective and anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly in denial.

Any expert supercar tester knows that “more power, better brakes, stickier tires... weight” do not guarantee faster times through a slalom. Here are the top 50 slalom times in Sport Auto’s supertests since 1997 (all driven by Horst von Sauma, supercar tester and Nurburgring expert driver). Their slalom course is almost 1200 ft, twice the length of Car and Driver. As you go through the list, you might realize that far more expensive cars (that are faster in a straight line, much more powerful, lighter, better tires, brakes, technology, etc.) are not always the fastest through the slalom.
http://tinyurl.com/c4gx8ep

In the comparison test (Lexus, BMW, Caddy), the tester was Jared Gall, senior editor of Car and Driver (the world’s largest car mag). If you bother to check his biography, you’d realize that he is exponentially more qualified on cars than you are. This link has the numerous car tests he has done among his 550 articles:
http://tinyurl.com/oryvra8

Unlike Jared Gall, you probably haven’t driven both cars (Lexus and BMW) back to back – and certainly not comprehensively tested the cars to the depth Gall has. Yet you want us to believe that (a) you know “the BMW is the clear winner here” from looking at the data like a nerd does and (b) you know “(Jared Gall) doesn’t have what it takes to drive a fast car quickly in a slalom”. Lol.

Give us a break. It’s Bimmer fanboys like you who are clearly in denial. And really don’t know much about performance cars.

So far, very few comparisons have been done involving the new Lexus IS. However here is a ‘first drive’ comparison report that supports the C&D conclusions about the IS:
Automotive.com: “on the racetrack in Austin, we sampled the 2014 Lexus IS 350 F-Sport… We drove it back to back with a 2013 BMW 335i, a 2013 Mercedes-Benz C350… It was not a direct apples-to-apples comparison--the Benz and BMW were not equipped with sport packages--but the point of the exercise, although fun, was more to compare high speed stability and handling prowess than it was to see which was quickest around the track… With the aero fins and stiffened chassis, the 2014 Lexus IS was the best-controlled car on the racetrack. That doesn't mean it was the fastest. That doesn't mean it had the quickest lap time. It was, however, the most confident; no butterflies in the pits of our stomachs... The Mercedes, on the other hand, felt loose and slippery in our hands, while the BMW, though highly competent, and a beast in its own right, was no surer in its ability. If that deer or car cut in front of you on the highway, you would feel more secure and confident in the 2014 IS. You would maintain control more effectively than in a competitor... What this all boils down to is that the 2014 Lexus IS just feels confident and easy in your hands, under pressure, on backroads, while enjoying a spirited ride, or when cruising down the highway. It drives not like a car assembled from many pieces, but as if it were carved fro

...It drives not like a car assembled from many pieces, but as if it were carved from a single block of steel. It feels solid and controlled, as nimble as any sport sedan on the road, but as refined behind the wheel as any other Lexus… Summary: It's too early to call the 2014 Lexus IS a segment champion, but that doesn't mean it isn't worthy of the comparison opportunity. In our short time with the new IS, we felt that, in all configurations, it is civil, engaging, and fresh. It's not the fastest, or the most efficient, but it might be the best-designed package of fun, comfort, safety, and reliability in the segment.”
http://www.automotive.com/lexus/is350/2014/first-drive/

to Satriani1:
you are definitely correct that i have not had the chance to drive these cars back to back yet but it is on my list of things to do as my current lease is about to go back. im very interested in seeing this list of cars with inferior power, weight, grip, and brakes performing better in a slalom than cars high power, low weight, better grip and stronger brakes but i dont know where this list is. i dont know how to read german so i dont know how to navigate the link you listed, all i see are really expensive sports cars with awesome brakes, powerful engines and light weight in the link you sent me so i dont really understand your point.

the fact that someone is a senior editor does not automatically give them the qualification of being a person who dares to drive a car at its absolute limit. an example i can give you would be the Motortrend test where a GTI is compared to the FRS. every journalist drove the GTI faster but Randy Pobst, a season race car driver was faster in an FRS because he DARES to push the car to its limits while journalists are merely, well... journalists.

i actually take a lot of offense when you called me a bimmer fanboy because i actually dont like BMWs too much, i like Audis. i just find it ironic that BMW is losing in tests for subjective reasons like Audi has for years. i personally find it much easier to expose the handling capabilities of an Audi than a BMW. the main reason for this is probably because ive only driven them with all season tires on a regular basis and i practice grip driving. for what its worth, my limited driving experience of a BMW on summer tires was pretty amazing but ive never driven an Audi on summer tires for comparison sake.

its funny that you started quoting the review from automotive.com because if you understand how to read you would understand that it was "the most confidence" but it "doesn't mean it had the quickest lap time". its nice to have a car that inspires confidence because it makes you more comfy to push it hard when you dont know the car. but once youve actually driven a car regularly and you keep pushing it until it reaches its limits, you can reproduce the results due to experience and undestanding of the chassis and drivetrain. i find it funny that you question looking at statistical data like a nerd but you dont question subjective opinions of a journalist, doest sound very logical to me. in reality, car confidence is much like car reliability, its only an illusion that makes you feel better.

still wouldn't buy the lexus...looks are too scary. plus it didn't win any subcategory...chassis, powertrain, etc. i'd take the 207 point 335i over the 208 point IS350 any day. and most buyers in this category feel the same given how much more volume the 3 sells--and at higher prices.