Why the Germans think Lexus isn't a true competitor

I drive a 2005 BMW m3 coupe. I think that anyone who thinks that Lexus, Infiniti or even Acura doesnt steal some sales from German manufacturers is wrong. Ill admit it does bother me to see the Japanese catch up, but on the other hand, if not for the Japanese, the Germans wouldnt have to try as hard, so all the competition is excellent. Let them all try to beat eachother and win over consumers. In the end, we the buyers win. As of right now I feel Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche and Jaguar are all in one class and do have different types of buyers. Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Lincoln and Cadillac in the other tier. Once Lexus releases the LS600 which will dierectly compete with Mercedes S class and BMW 7 series I think they will be the ones to beat though since that car is usually driven by males over the age of 55. Remember most 55 year olds want a smooth quiet ride and dont care all that much about taking turns at 80mph. Lexus will probably be alittle cheaper, offer more options softer ride and be more reliable.

00JT: your summation that German cars are only purchased for snob appeal is very simplistic and narrow minded of you.

German car fans all know deep down that Lexus can, and eventually will, overpass everything Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Jaguar are famous for. Lexus doesn't struggle to keep up with the competition, the competition struggles to keep up with Lexus. No one can deny this. You can say what you want about this, German fans, but you know it's true.

"Dual Chamber airbag/ (German fan reply) "copied""
FYI the Dual Chamber airbag first appeared in the Ford Explorer.....
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"Lexus is a competitor to the Germans, just in a different way.©"-mspangpny07
There I copyrighted my statement because it's true. :)
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Who really cares?
The Lexus people can drive their Lexuses, and Audi people can drive their Audis, the BMW people can drive their BMWs, and the Chevy people can drive their friend's Ford because they broke down.
But then Autospies wouldn't be fun. ;)

Snob appeal doesn't make German cars any less good.

And I don't think heritage OR snob appeal is the reason for purchasing a German car.

I think design, performance and engineering excellence are the reasons.

You are stereotyping AND making stuff up.

Not a good look.

^
Yeah, but then the dual chamber airbag on the Explorer dissapeared.

What?

Anybody who says Lexus isn't a good car is just a joker. Lexus make good cars, but lack of Heritage is just one problem, and a temporary one. In 70 years time when most of today's Geman car lovers will have died off, and the current generation who grew up with the Lexus name are writing the checks, no one will care that much. Good thing I'll be dead by then.. ha ha.. Just kidding! Lets forget about copying, and look at the real issues. The other handicaps are below:

1) Handling. Lexus cars are designed for smooth quiet cruising, slalom forget it, curves? you must be dreaming! I've driven today's so-called sports lexus (GS and IS). With more power they feel more interesting than they used to, but there's really nothing sporty about them, and you can't help but notice many of their shortcomings when you've driven a lot of cars, especially the Germans. The IS and GS should just be passed off as generic luxury cars.. Pick up "any" german car, and you'll get some level of decent handling
2) Styling - Which Lexus on the road today did you see and drool over? ..Wow, what a beautiful car.. None! Styling has historically been prosaic and tired looking, and from the looks of the new LS460, its very clear that the trend will continue.. A lot of work is required here.. a lot.

3) Feedback / Character - This is perhaps worse than the poor styling. Lifeless Steering, spongy handling, can't tell what's going on with the car, lack of seat of the pants excitement are all standard equipment. Lexus may be great if you don't care about cornering and will do no more than 40mph when it rains (which applies to a number of people). However, those won't work for me and a lot of others who buy German cars. One quick point though..I'm yet to see any Infinity / Nissan lovers express themselves on this site.. I think they do a much better job than Lexus when it comes to handling and styling.. Lets face reality, anybody who says Lexus has great styling, handling, and feedback is simply a clown. However, with Nissan / Infinity, I can actually have an intelligent discussion without laughing.
But back to Heritage since that's really the title of the post. In prior posts I've seen people struggle to understand why that's important, and that's ok. It ironic, but after all anybody who really understood it and thought it was important wouldn't touch a Lexus with a long fork. Here's the way it works.. If you want a dog that will win the Westminster dog show, you don't start with a wretched, flea infested mongrel who's head or front legs you can't see because its half-way embedded in garbarge at the city land fill. No! You go to a breeder with a clear tangible record of producing winners year in year out... And if a new breeder opens shop and swears they'll give you a cheaper dog, you wait until they develop something tangible before you jump ship. I'm watching and waiting....

I think that all this nonsense should stop. Lexus fans, German fans will never respect you simply because Lexus is not German. German fans Lexus fans will never respect you because of the same reason. It does not have to be this way but unfortunately it is. Why can't both sides just respect each other and just acknowlege that both sides make perfectly fine cars and that both sides have different strengths and weaknesses?

Jacob,

Oh I wish it were that simple.

SixxFive and 1995e34,

I never said that ALL German cars that were purchased based on snob appeal.

Mstangpny07,

Even if the dual chamber airbag debuted first on the Explorer, my point is: Does it really matter? At the end the consumer benefits by having an advanced product that is designed to enhance safety.

Most BMWs and Mercedes are bought for snob appeal.

The average buyer doesn't give a crap about the engineering or technology, unless it is a daily used feature or something that can be shown to others readily. How many ML buyers know their vehicle was made in Alabama? What is the percentage of 7 series owners who have a clue as to what the Nurburging is?

The German car companies (and their fans) think Lexus is not a true competitor for one simple reason. It helps them sleep better at night.

Matthew,

"You are stereotyping AND making stuff up."

Am I? Look at any heated Lexus vs German car debate and I assure you "heritage" and "Lexus copies" are brought up many times.

1995e34,

"It ironic, but after all anybody who really understood it (heritage) and thought it was important wouldn't touch a Lexus with a long fork. Here's the way it works.. If you want a dog that will win the Westminster dog show, you don't start with a wretched, flea infested mongrel who's head or front legs you can't see because its half-way embedded in garbarge at the city land fill."

Thats a bit unfair. Parent company Toyota had already made a pretty good name for themselves as being a blue collar brand. It's not like as if the now defunct Daewoo were to spawn their very own luxury devision.

1995e34,

"i think the people looking for snob appeal are actually more like to buy the lexus.

How is that? Lexus fans don't brag about heritage because Lexus has yet to make a name for themselves worldwide.

If not for the name why would someone purchase the Mercedes C350 over the Lexus IS350?

Lexus is more powerful
Has more features for the money
Performs better
Less expensive overall by 3k

Trust me, a lot of people would be less inclined to pay 38k for the C350 if it wasn't a Mercedes. Would you pay 38k for a rwd Hyundai that has 268 hp and offers as many features as the C350? See what I mean? Take away the name and there is little reason to buy the C Class.

That's because Mercedes-Benz is an "IT" car. That basically means that celebrities have a car one year that is an "IT" car that everyone must have. For instance, three years ago, it was a Mercedes G-class, and two years ago it was a Land Rover Range Rover, this year it's a Bentley Continental GT. Pretty much, Mercedes has made money from these "Posers" because they can't think for themselves.

Or maybe Linsay Lohan appreciates the mountain-moving torque and finesse of her windscreen wipers on her SL65?

Give the celeb's some credit.

Doesn't matter.
The LF-A will still own the M6.
The GT-R will still own the M3.

I dont think anyone can doubt that.
As far as mainstream cars go, The ES and IS currently outsell the 3 series. Machine-design wise, BMW may be better, but they cant build cars very well, and they overvalue thier cars. This will be their downfall.

Toy/Lex should be compared to Cadillac and not to MB, BMW or Audi.

Let's get that straight.

I've never seen a Lexus that I truly can say I thought had good styling.

I'm sorry, but that's the way I feel.

1995e34,

Right, the reason people are willing to pay 38k for the C Class is because it's a Mercedes. If the C Class was under a lower-branded manufactor, the car would not be able to justify the 38k sticker.

okay lexus not bad car, maybe vs. 3series/A4/c-klasse maybe even 5series/A6/E-klasse... a few nice SUVs by Lexus, a few nice entry/Mid level luxury sports sedan. but when u say "German competition"...Lexus vs Porsche GT3, GT2, 911Turbo/S...
Maybachs/ Conti GT/ Lambos/ M6...not to mention 15 different AMG - klasse Mercedes
Lexus = Competition for German in specific sector, in specific Market(US)... but overall . NO WAY

efoxS4 --

It is absolutely true that BM and MB designs are evergreen while others are not. Many cars from the 80s still look good compared to what is on the market right now. Eg, 3 series, S Class, etc. 2001 7 series was imo the best looking larger sedan ever produced.

Will--

The reason that German brands are far superior to Japanese (previous Honda owner) is that they are willing to take risks with new design, engine technology, safety, etc while most Japanese brands simply copy them and make it mass market. That is while they may not be as reliable the first year the car comes out, but I would much rather support ideas that are new and move the industry forward rather than is accessible to every consumer possible.

00JT--

There is nothing wrong with the Lexus products per se but when compared to its German rivals is so weak in every aspect (materials, design, technology) that it is not considered a true competitor. BTW, petigree matters as cars are emotional purchases not basic transportation for many people. Hundai Azera may be a great car but most people will not buy it because of its petigree no matter how great the car is, and this is not a bad thing because a brands repuatation is important for most consumers.

vcowman,

You speak my language.

vcowman,

On what basis do you think Lexus "materials, design, and technology" is "weak?" Pure bias? I don't know what kind of a Lexus you've been in (if any), but they have one of some of the best interior designs/build quality of any car manufactor. Their reputation for building high quality cars reflect in their high scoring year after year in JD Power and Consumer Reports studies. I defy you to find any respected car magazine article that even breathes the words of Lexus being of subpar or "weak" quality.

The Azera is a good car, and I'd have it over half of its competition in its price class. Including the Buick Lacrosse and Ford Five Hundred.

The problem with Lexus is first and foremost could just be its fanatics suportores who sadly live in their own fantasy world that doesn't have many tangents with relity.

They just don't seem to get it. At least the people who run the company that in many ways the are here thanks to the germans.

First thanks to the fact that the germans proved you can be succesfull in the premium/luxury market despite the adversities.

And second for the fact that they kept copying them. As one jurnalist said, the japs continue to do what they know best copying the germans.
And its obvious, Phaeton front, BMW profile with even
the the traditional BMW Hofmeister kink, and so on, and so on.

And third let's get to the important things.
- image/prestige, outside the USA Lexus is a little known/unknown brand; some of those who know it have bad/negative view about them, like a rebagded Toyota.

- dealers and service, or better said lack of it. Outside of the USA they mostly in Australia, UK (bigest European market), Korea and the rest a few scanted dealers.
Now this means low(er) sales and low(er) retail value.
- production facilities. Compared to the germans, Lexus is small and has limitations as far as production goes.
- models and variants. Compared to the germans they lack a lot of models and variants. Even worse they are late and/or still don't give the people what they want (wagons, hatchbacks, diesels, AWD, manuals, SMG/DSG/7Gtronic).
Lexus survived/thrived in the USA thanks to SUVs, while their cars constantly struggled, however the rest of the world ain't exactly so SUV crazy.

I 100% agree with the 300E comments..We had a 260E abroad and there was nothing like those 80s Benz when it came to whole package. They were just suberb. I said it before, and I'll say it again.. Lexus has poor styling, shoddy handling, and no feedback. Great to be driven in, but definitely not a driver's car. While their engines hold up very well as they age, build quality falters..After 4 or 5 years, their interiors just don't look as fresh as they did when new, and even the paint finish begins to pale.. You wouldn't even find that on a 5 year old Passat not to mention the big German three. Compare a 10 year old German car to the Lexus, and you'll get it. The Lexus' Engines will be in excellent shape, but the rest of the car will be a different story. My dad's first S-class was a 70s 280, and although it had the perforated leather that I think looks cheap in today's environment, and didn't have electric windows, when I last drove it about 5 years ago before it was given away, I was still impressed with the solidity, and the perfromance from the engine. He also had an 80s 500Sel that has held up very well and still feels like a tank today. The cheap steel / finish (just hit the roof and side panels you'll get it) you find in typical Japanese cars explains why they give you half or less than half of what some of the German manufacturers give you for Corrosion.. Lets face it. Lexus is a good car, but not yet up to par on many fronts..but they will get better

Wow Lexus is really popular here huh? Lexus is not a enthusiasts car, but this is a website for car enthusiasts so it become infamous automatically. If you read the magazines you will see that most of the cars that win comparision test are usually ones that have better performance and drive. So in the end Lexus is popular by default :). I also think that Lexus being as boring as it might be is still competition and a good one. It may not have a hold on the global market but they have the US market now and expanding. It may not be a true competitor in people's minds but it is a solid competitor in reality. Do you guys really think that BMW and MB are just sitting there and saying that Lexus isn't a true competitor? No, they finding ways to kill Lexus before it gets a hold on the international market.

In conclusion Lexus is not a true competitor in terms of how the cars are built (performance luxury vs. luxury only) but they are competitors directly when it comes to brand image. All of you are saying that Lexus isn't a true competitor, because they don't have the performance and innovation, you guys missed one thing. Lexus is giving their customers, not most of the people on this website including me, what they want. Which would be a quiet and luxurious ride. I don't want to go into anything else because those things can go on forever.

Also when buying a car I have one advice - don't buy on prestige only because you are not going to drive prestige you are going to drive a car. Of course some cars give you more prestige, but don't buy a worse car when you can have a better one i.e. C-class vs. 3 series. Also when a car is better it is simply better, just because another car has more prestige that doesn't make the better car loose because it has no prestige.

Um, I think BMW and Mercedes don't pay much attention to Audi because of Audi's over-rated interior design and hideous front end work.

Its not only a true competitor but its clearly percieved to be a real threat to the german automakers. Why else would every article on Lexus have more responses, mostly from the german camp, than articles on even their beloved german cars. They have a compulsion to criticise a company that is rising very fast to the top of the industry. It is their last futile attempt to bring it down but it wont happen.

What we must focus on, and appreciate, is how much Lexus is imroving with each generation. What many german fans are perhaps conveniently forgetting is that the very definition of a luxury car means that luxury comes first, everything else second. Lexus recognizes this, and has made the LS with pure luxury in mind. This doesnt mean it cant handle well. To state that it handles like a school bus, as one troll put it, is a laugh. Ofcourse it can handle with competence when needed, but how many 60 yr old ppl are going to be taking sharp corners and pushing the car to its limits? THe answer would be less than 5%. Even the outgoing LS430 handled with panache when pushed hard, and you dont need more than that in a LUXURY car.

I think the point of luxury vs performance luxury is a good one, but if it completely valid, the LS430's true competetion is a Rolls Royce, or perhaps a Lincon Towncar. Even then it fails against competition.

Vcowman Rolls Royce is another class when compared to Lexus, BMW, MB. I mean if it was in the same class why wouldn't MB be directly competing against it? Why would it take out Maybach? About the Town Car that car is not up to par with the 7 series, S class, and LS. I mean how could you compare an LS with a town car. Town car is way back in terms of technology and I'd hate to say it but performance. If you take the new LS it has an 8 speed transmission the Town Car a 4 speed that only the cheapest Toyotas use. The new LS will get 380 hp out of its 4.6l engine while the Town car gets only what 239 hp from the same size. It might match it in terms of ride quality, but even the Lexus beats it in everything esle. Oh by the way a Rolls cost what about 200k and the Town Car cost about 46k.

My point is even though the LS isn't as performance orientated as the 7 and S it is still a competitor to them because that is the closest it gets to anything. If you want to put the LS in the luxury only segment it would have to be ranking -not competition- like this Town Car > LS > Rolls Royce.

The thing with Lexus is that People love their ride but it wouldn't hurt to have a more sporty ride to get more people to buy their cars. But then again whatever works for them. I mean they are still selling their boring cars right?

You can still get some of that cheap MB-tex in several of today's Mercedes models.

But seeing as how some of those "luxury" Mercedes are used as taxis in Europe, I guess the pleather makes sense.

Logical your statements are illogical. You've obviously never been to Germany. In Germany, Audi is the number #1 Luxury brand, yes..#1. BMW is #2 and Benz #3. Go to Germany if you want to know what Germans think. Try Octoberfest in Munich this year if you want a good time.

Some people seem to like discussing comments they have in their heads as opposed to what's been posted a problem I'm yet to fully understand. Nobody is talking about whether Lexus is a competitor or not because they are, and a very good one too. After all, they re-route some of the dough that traditionally went to the German three to their own bank accounts. A competitor is simply another alternative regardless of the reasons why!! The point of this post is the snob appeal, and as I alluded to earlier snob appeal is just one of the challenges...

Listen, if we didn't have Lexus, I don't think the German three who have competed with each other for years will be as good as they are now. But sorry, I digress, the E-class memories of the 80s were sweet, and that reminds of another sweet ride: the 4 cyclinder M3 from the same period. Noisy, awesome handling, sweet and fast, The gear changes were so short and delicious that if you didn't change up quickly by the redline, the sweet surge was temporarily stopped. Not to mention the original VW GTI 16valve, which I don't think made it to the states. We raced a Merc 380Sel against this little animal on an open road and couldn't believe how quickly the Golf got away until I drove it myself. super sweet, wild and violent shifting. 1st to 2nd and 2nd to third can only be described as extremely tasty.... Those were real cars.. not the utilitarian appliances people hang around in these days.. which brings me back to the Lexus. Very good car, but devoid of character and not pleasing to the eyes..

DarkForceOne,

Typical German car fanatic response. Lexus copies? FYI EVERY automaker copies from another automaker at some point. Why don't we blame Audi and BMW for copying the airbag, ABS brakes, and the car from Mercedes? You are obviously not getting the point. Why does it matter that some other company starts to produce technology that debuted somewhere else? Is it fair to say that ONLY MERCEDES cars can have airbags because they were the ones to invent airbags? Give me a break.

"- image/prestige, outside the USA Lexus is a little known/unknown brand; some of those who know it have bad/negative view about them, like a rebagded Toyota."

Lexus is too new worldwide. However you don't have to have heritage/prestige to build a good car. Lexus can make good cars and there is no denying that. In time they will make their own heritage.

Starfox,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

24HOJ - I guess you misunderstood what I said about selling boring cars. It wasn't an statement that I made personally it was a sarcastic statment based off of every other person who hates Lexus on this website.

I know what luxury cars are supposed to be but as a buyer I expect a car company to sell me everything, meaning that when I am buying a premium car I want speed, luxury, power, handling, safety, quality, etc. Otherwise I would buy an engine with seats strapped to it :).

Oh yeah I would need wheells and a suspension too.

I agree that Lexus can make nice cars, but I do not think they are at the same level as the Germans yet. The German competitors are a lot more fun to drive. The only Jap company that comes close to the Germans in handling and fun factor is Infiniti.

In my opinion, Lexus does have prestige. doesn't catching up with the germans in just a few years give them some well-earned respect?

most of you german fans hate lexus. im a lexus fan and i still like german cars.

I think the snob appeal argument does not really apply because all these cars cost a lot of money. For example, the IS costs a little more than the 3 series and I think its a folly to say they deliver similar driving experiences. I can see how if someone does not want to pay 20k extra for an S Class or a 7 Series that they may buy a LS430 but only if they are not looking for a spirited driving experience. If I am paying 50k I dont mind paying 70 for all the intangibles that come with the german brands. I have personally driven the IS, the GS, and LS and can safely say that the concept of value for getting a similar experience for less money does not exist. Lexus consistantly gets outcalssed in every segement except for the Landcruiser which is an international success.

BTW, I think that many people can get the same comfort oriented experience with a large American car like Towncar, Cadallac, Ford Crown Victoria (Lexus' favourite demographic until last week has been current Buick owners), so truly Lexus is not a true competitor to the German brands.

Grow up, and quit playing the race card to the eariler post saying that Lexus does not get any respect because German car owners are racist, its cause they make bland cars with no character not because the owners hate Japanese people.

Hey guys,
Just read about this on MSN.com.

"Attention car shoppers. If you aren't satisfied with the gasoline-electric hybrid models now on sale, wait. There will be plenty more available, even a hybrid version of the Porsche Cayenne sport-utility vehicle and a Chevrolet Tahoe hybrid, in coming years.
In a flurry of announcements before, during and after the 2005 auto show in Frankfurt, Germany, automakers around the globe suddenly voiced new interest in hybrid vehicles that combine gasoline engines with onboard electric power. These vehicles have been garnering increasing attention from American consumers, primarily because many hybrids provide improved fuel economy over comparable gas-only models.

Even BMW, the maker of German performance vehicles, and Porsche, known for its race-inspired sports cars, now say they'll get into hybrid production by the end of the decade."

Hmmm, I wonder whose copying who now. Let me wait and see the comments. Cheers!

JT do you drive an Echo or a Yaris? =P

I think what it comes down to is two fundamental business models and philosophies about car building. PlanoA4's user profile says "Vorsprung durch Technik", which means "Progress through Technology" in German. This is inherently superior to the Japanese brands sensiblities regarding efficiency and refining but not innovating. We the German car fans think Lexus isn't a true competitor because German brands have been market innovators for 100 years and their cars have character.

Well, I wasn't going to get involved and most likely won't but I just have to keep commenting on logical and "others...DFO, etc..." that just don't have any right to post thier comments without growing up first.

As pointed out on the last RS4 article...." you all don't even like the color of the tires of a Audi or Lexus."

But it's what keeps the site running. So both of you and the rest of your camp keep spitting out your comments and we'll all be here to put you in your place.

SSP550:

Just an FYI, Audi has been at the forefront of hybrid research and technology, and began investing in this technology way before Lexus did.

In 1989, Audi unveiled the first generation of the Audi Duo experimental vehicle, based on the Audi 100 Avant Quattro. Two years later, Audi unveiled the second generation Duo, also based on the Audi 100 Avant quattro.

In 1997, Audi became the first manufacturer in Europe to take a hybrid vehicle into volume production: the Audi duo based on the A4 Avant.

So where does Lexus play into this? Oh, that's right....eight years later. OWNED

00JT:

I think your post is critically flawed, and for a more accurate description of why most German car owners don't regard Lexus as competition, refer to my article entitled 'Why Lexus Shouldn't Be Regarded Prestigious'.

Heritage was a very small part of this.

True, but neither actually released hybrid products prior to 1997. Audi has been the only premium German manufacturer to actually bring to market such technology, and this was done before Lexus. Stay focused, Will.

I agree with efoxS4 and all the other Audi and Lexus supporters. It is high time that we and together and completely dismiss the arguements and posts by Logical.

The best thing to do is to not even respond to Logical's clear disregard for automotive engineering, build quality, price and vaue as the typical world-wide consumers see it.

Logical and the other Audi and Lexus haters see things in their own little way which is entirely different from the way the rest of the world looks at Audi, Lexus, BMW and Mercedes.

Logical's posts claiming Audi is a econobox POS that is for the person who can't afford the BMW M3 is obviously false.

It certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that across Audi's entire model range they have models that are priced higher than their BMW counterparts.

Audi's RS4 is $16K more expensive than the BMW M3 and therefore someone who can afford an Audi RS4 can also afford a BMW M3. The A4 2.0T with Quattro and Tiptronic is MORE expensive than a 325i.

The RS6 (previous generation) was more expensive than both the BMW M5 and MB E55 AMG. Again, those who can afford the RS6 can also afford the M5 or E55.

The Audi A8L 4.2 also has lease rates higher than a BMW 750Li and the Audi A8L 6.0 W12 starts at the same price as a BMW 760Li (or maybe only a few hundred dollars less) When someone is spending nearly $120K a few hundred dollars is nothing.

Nobody says oh my god I'm not getting car A because it costs $118,900 but I'll get car B because it only costs $118,030.

Logical your time has come to an end. I urge all on this forum to stop responding to Logical and all the other Audi haters posts.

When the Chief Executive Officer of BMW itself acknowledges that Audi is a competitor to BMW, I definetely do not think that your saying Audi is a rebadged Volkswagen POS of shit is going to change anyone's mind Logical.

When cars such as the RS4 make the benchmark BMW M3 look like an econobox in terms of price (66K for RS4 vs $55K for M3), straight-line acceleration (0-60 in 4.3 which is the fastest possible time for the RS4, vs. 4.5 for the BMW M3), quality and ergonomics of interior (Again nobody can find me that article I've been asking for...thus it confirms Audi's superiority in interior design) and track performance (The Audi RS4 defeats the BMW M5 on the Nurburgring and eats the M3 alive) I think it should be received with admiration. Of course the rest of the media has praised the RS4 for what it means for Audi, but of course you can't do the same.

I am not biased to any company. I have an Audi right now and also have BMWs. The lease payments on my Audi are higher than they would be on a BMW 325i.

I've had enough of you and the same goes for the rest of this board.

Audiman4,

I have re-read your article, that being said you still don't get the point.

Lexus has been credited with more things than the hybrid system. Even still German fanatics insist the technology came from somewhere else. Does this really matter? Should Audi not be allowed to have airbags and ABS brakes in their cars because Mercedes invented those safety features? Maybe it's better for Lexus to have a brick wall pop out of the steering wheel in a collission in order for the German fanatics to call that original.

Engines? Who ever said that Ward's list was the sole credible source? JD Power and Consumer reports declare year after year that Lexus are among the most reliable cars in the industry. The engines spec-wise are also very competitive if not even better than some of it's Germanic competition. If you don't believe me then why don't we just look at cold hard facts.

Mercedes C350
3.5 liter V6
268 hp
20/28 mpg

Lexus IS350
Same displacent 3.5 liter V6
However the IS will make 306 hp (38 more hp)
While getting slightly better gas mileage 21/28 mpg

Going back to heritage/prestige, if you don't believe me when I say it is a major pillar in an Lexus vs German car debate, then look up any heated argument between a Lexus and German car fan.

Agent 63,

Neither actually, curious to what you drive? Beetle?

vcowman,

"We the German car fans think Lexus isn't a true competitor because German brands have been market innovators for 100 years and their cars have character."

Next time you buy a non-Mercedes German car think about Audi and BMW not inventing all those safety features (Airbags, ABS, Traction Control, etc.). Is that really going to stop you from buying that Audi, BMW, or VW? <-------- That is my point. We Lexus fans feel the same way.

vcowman,

It's a good thing that all those companies copied Mercedes' innovation in safety. So I ask you; Does it really matter where it came from so long as it benefits the consumer?

I am glad you brought that up because it highlights my point about German vs Japanese brands "firsts". The overwhelming majority of advances in automotive technology has been found by German brands and then refined by Japanese brands. I choose to like Audi / BMW / MBZ not because they are willing to try new things for the benefit of the consumers rather than make a buck after all the heavy lifting is done as far as R&D is concerned. BTW in my personal expereince the notion that German cars are deemed "less reliable" is not credible as I have never experienced a mechanical or design flaw problem (Ahem, MASSIVE Toyota RECALL) and in general better parts and enginnering go into German cars (metal timing belts, not rubber). I would rather give my company that are pionners in their industry and are willing to try new things for the benefit of the consumers rather than make a buck after all the heavy lifting is done as far as R&D is concerned. Another reason is that our local Lexus dealer is a total pompus ass and so my perception is mediocore product and bad service = I am not going to support them.

vcowman,

You never answered my question. Next time you buy a non-Mercedes German car is it the fact that Audi and BMW didn't invent airbags and dozens of other safety features really going to cross your mind?

Most people (especially posers) that buy German cars could care less about what company invented what feature. It's unfortunate that you dislike your local Lexus dealer. However Lexus is known to have superior customer service. Reguardless of the fact that they are not as innovative as Germanic automakers, Lexus still builds great cars. Many German fanatics are completely oblivious to that so they rely on heritage and innovation as a main pillar in their arguments.

Think about this, if a product benifits the consumer at the end then why does it matter who was the first to debut this product? Why don't we blame BMW and Audi for copying all those safety features that were invented by Mercedes?

Logical, why do you say that Audi is an econobox? Can you NOT understand that if a car is MORE expensive someone who buys that car can obviously afford a car that is LESS expensive?????


I know its a limited-release vehicle. All Audi RS models are limited-release. Why do you think the Audi RS6 was sold for such a short amount of time????

Don't throw the S4 into this debate. Why the S4 and what brand/performance are you talking about?? The M3 CSL is not sold here in the United States but the M3 CS is and even then it doesn't reach the price of the RS4.

You know BMW is gunning for the RS4 with the next M3. Don't be a fool we all know this.....

Next time don't post the same message 3 times rocket scientist.

Just ay that Audi owners can afford a BMW or Mercedes-Benz. I'm not talking about who is better. All I want you to say is that Audi owners CAN afford a BMW or Mercedes-Benz.

Until then I will grill you to your grave on this website about Audi owners not being able to afford a BMW or Mercedes-Benz.

I'll be the first to say that Lexus is serious competition to any brand. The problem a lot of people have is that they do it on the coat tails of others. Yes their cars are packed with technology, no doubt.

The problem is it is a copy of most everybody’s technology. All of this is however assembled into a singular vehicle. I guess one thing can be sure, if you want a lot of last years technology, (and nothing is wrong with that) then buy a Lexus. If you want to stay at the forefront then buy a German car (as precarious as that might sound).

There is nothing wrong with one year old of technology, but it would REALLY help the arguments around here if ANYONE can name Lexus advances other than a crystal headlight and a extra gear in a transmission. So far their arguments have fallen short of proving Lexus pioneers much of anything.

I still remember the posts of patents for Lexus in 2005, that a Lexus fan did, and they were full of things like ashtrays, shift knobs, and door handles. But totally devoid of any true substance, of innovation. So sad a so called “Leader” can claim to be so without pushing the envelope of design.

Plano,

Perhaps you haven't taken a gander at all the new features the new Lexus LS has. First car to offer park assist as standard equipment. To my knowledge BMW and Mercedes don't even offer these features.

So Plano, I'll as you the same question I've asked everyone else. Since Mercedes seem to be leading the charge when it comes to innovations, next time you buy an Audi will it deter you that atleast half of their safety features debuted on Mercedes first? I'm sure you'll agree with me when I say that Audi also makes good cars. If it were me and I liked a certain Audi that much more than I did a Mercedes, then you'd bet I wouldn't give rats where a lot of Audi's safety features came from. That is exactly how I feel about Lexus.

The problem with most German fanatics is that they overlook content and place an emhpasis on origin.

Bottom line is there is no way to prove that German cars are ultimately superior to Lexus and vice versa.

huu76- Duuuuuh, the reason you saw all of the posts on the Toyota recalls in the past, was to show different aspects, and the reasons for them. This is called education of the consumer. Actually several of them were in defense of Toyota, and explaining what occurred, and how it would not happen again. But I guess you never read the articles, preferring to skim things that may alter your perspective. Maybe if you read a bit deeper you will see that I will post both sides of the argument when I see it.

Case in point, I continually post most of the favorable news and developments in the Hybrid world, but I personally think very little of them. I also tend to stay out of those discussions, because to many, my opinion is well known. Why make a positive posting and then slam it? As I see thing of interest I do post them regardless of my opinion.

In general I would recommend Toyota and Lexus to anyone that fit their needs. But personally I would not buy them for well known reasons. With that said, I will reiterate that I respect Toyota and what it stands for, but I will not give accolades for what the continually do not earn. A great value and great dependability are only a small portion of the overall ownership experience.

I think PlanoA4 just proved that German cars are ultimately superior to Lexus. Its much easier to get passionate about a German brand when they do most of the innovation than a Japanese brand that just stands back and leeches technology and ideas to make money rather than contribute any meaningful innovation. Even if you leave heritage or "fun to drive" out of the equation, I think its clear that German cars are ultimately superior to Lexus.

vcowman,

You think German cars are ultimately superior to Lexus because Plano prefers German over Lexus? Oh yea thats a great reason to think Germans are better. BTW Why are you dodging my questions? Here it is again in case you forgot:

Next time you buy a non-Mercedes German car is it the fact that Audi and BMW didn't invent airbags and dozens of other safety features really going to deter you from purchasing an Audi, BMW, or VW?

Audi and BMW have also "leeched" a lot of technology from Mercedes. They're no different.

I did not directly answer your question because it is not the topic. The question is not if MB is better than BMW or Audi, its if German brands are better than Lexus. I feel they are because Lexus is a Japanese brand that just stands back and leeches technology and ideas to make money rather than contribute any meaningful innovation during its entire 13 year existance and its not OK for their fans to play Monday morning quarterback when it comes to reliablity. With innovation comes risk and I would rather support companies that are willing to innovate for the benefit of the entire industry and all consumers.

It is morally reprehensible actually, and thats why I dont support them! Credit should be given where it is due, and because Lexus is not willing to stick their neck out and the Germans are we need to recognize that they are on a higher level.

vcowman,

You didn't answer my qestion because you know that most people that walk into a showroom and buy a car don't care about where technology orginated from.

Here's another question: Should we blame other German brands such as Audi and BMW for "leeching" off many of Mercedes' innovations?

Bet you'll dodge that one too.

A good car is a good car, no way to deny that. At the end of the day many people already know Lexus makes good cars.

The question is not if MB is better than BMW or Audi, its if German brands are better than Lexus. If you think that Lexus should be on the same level as its German competitors, then they need to step up and take risks and be willing to sacrifice their precious reliablity to make better cars with technologoies that benefit all consumers. Lexus makes good cars, but the Germans make better ones and constantly improve them too.

vcowman,

Being the author of this article I can assure you that this article is not about German or Lexus superiority.
It's funny how German fanatics toss reliabuilty asside when it comes to these debates. We all know the German fanatics would shove that in our face too if their cars were nearly as reliable as a Lexus.

Anyways the point of my article is to point out that making a good car has nothing to do with heritage and/or whoever came out with a product first.

Imagine what kind of a car Audi and BMW would be if they did not "leech" technology from Mercedes. You just seem to be missing the point completely. EVERY automaker copies from one another. If they can make whatever product they copy better than the original, in the end the consumer benifits.

24HOJ,

Let him sweat a little more ;)

I think you need to re read my previous posts if you missed my answer, you keep repeating the same point and I am tired of explaining that the reason they are reliable is that they dont bring meaningful innovation to benefit consumers year after year. Ford makes a great sedan with the Crown Victoria and they have their fans but they also have not brought anything new to the table with that car for 25 years. Yes its reliable, but I would not buy one because I dont reward laziness and exploitation of customers that dont know or dont care. Making a good car has nothing to do with heritage and/or whoever came out with a product first, but making a great car has everything to do with heritage and how much risk they are willing to take to benefit car buyers and the entire industry.

The Citroen C6 is a nice car. Innovative, quirky and fresh.

Oh wait, that's French.

Wow, do the French even make cars? I thought only Germany and Japan made cars.

vcowman,

You want to talk about Ford? Lets talk about how the majority of their cars are subpar compared to the competition. Ex:

Focus vs Corolla, Civic
Fusion vs Camry, Accord
Five Hundred vs Avalon, Maxima, and 300C
FreeStar vs Sienna, Odyssey
Ranger vs Tacoma, Frontier
Escape vs RAV4, Grand Vitara

All the Ford products I have just named are subpar when compared to direct compeition from foreign and domestic brands. The only good car Ford has is the Mustang GT, Expedition, and F-150.

Wheras Lexus models are highly competitive with their Germanic rivals.

I've read over your previous posts and you have not provided a direct answer to my question.

1. Should we blame other German brands such as Audi and BMW for "leeching" off many of Mercedes' innovations?

2. Next time you consider a non-Mercedes German car is the fact that Audi and BMW didn't invent airbags and dozens of other safety features really going to deter you from purchasing an Audi, BMW, or VW?

The fact that you choose not to directly answer these questions pretty much reveal your answer. No to both, am I right?

vcowman,

"making a great car has everything to do with heritage"

Ford has a lot more heritage than Toyota but nowadays many of their cars are lagging behind the competition while most of Toyota's models are among the class leaders. You can make a great car without having your beloved "heritage"

The Focus outclasses the Corolla in every regard.

I don't know what incarnation you get in America, but the Focus is the benchmark for driving dynamics in its class.

And the Focus ST is a hot-hatch king when the Corolla T-sport is a 'two-star' rated joke.

It may not be ALL about performance and driving dynamics, but the Focus II also looks better and is roomier inside than the Corolla.

Look, I dont agree with you and you dont agree with me and thats OK. BTW by heritage I mean R&D like F1, GT racing, etc. My basic point is that the only crutch that Lexus fans have to lean on is there reliablity, and thats because they dont do anything new. If you cant get that basic point then I think you must be really insecure or thick skulled.

Matthew,

The Focus we have here is very bad. I don't know where you live, but I am aware that in other parts of the world the Focus is the Volvo S40 here. Visit www.ford.com for more info on US Foci.

Wow Lexus posts really do get the most responses huh?

vcowman,

Thats ok if we disagree. Thats why it's called a debate ;)

Most customers don't factor in innovation as a primary decision breaker when they purchase a car. Rather I believe reliabuility is a much more important factor. Along with value, sportiness, luxury quotient, performance, etc.

Some people value heritage, and thats ok. But when it becomes the main reason in purchasing a vehicle heritage becomes snob appeal

If YOU can't get that basic point then YOU must be really insecure or thick skulled.

Oh, I see.

You get the OLD Focus. That was launched in 1998!

Yes, it might be dated now, but when it was launched, man did it shake up the segment! It was like the best handling and most fun to drive hatch on the market. It still is a benchmark even for new rivals.

I guess the US-spec version comes standard with US-spec handling too....

Matthew,

Thats why I was so jelous when I visited Asia. They have the European Focus which is based of the Volvo S40. If the US had that version I have no doubt it would be the class leader in the compact sedan segment. It might even dethrone the Mazda 3.

Actually, the Focus shares its platform with the Volvo S50 and Mazda 3.

The platform was a joint-development, but the Mazda 3 was the first to use it, hence people saying 'Oh the new Focus is just a Mazda"

The Focus ST does use a turbo-charged Volvo motor, though.

00JT- Again for the umpteenth time, provide a list of technical advances that Toyota/Lexus has given to the automotive world over their entire history, other than crystal headlights and a extra gear. You know that that history is VERY SPARSE (non-existent?), and you refuse to address this, because your view point will not be validated.

vcowman- Look at my tagline now!

Why Buy a Lexus when you can buy German! I agree completely.

I do not care about heritage, But I pay a lot of attention to the quality of the materials, and as I said when Lexus offer 12 years of anti-rust warranty or 30 years as Merc, May be I will start to mind a Lexus. But in my country you will see a lot of old Mercs and Bimmers but not to many Lexus and Yes I pay attention to the fact that It is a a very young Brand but I comparing cars od the same age and year. Finaly confiability is a Sine Qua Non for me and I know that in that department Lexus already surpass Germans while the car still under warranty and the electronics will continue working far beyond the warranty expires. Lexus will have to buy mettrials from europe if they wnat to match de durability of German cars.

To each his own...... Its a pride race nobody wants to be told that there car is lesser.... they all have thier strong points and they all have there weaknesses... but they are all luxeruy cars in one way or another.

Will- Well at least I saw you changed your tagline to match! We are a bunch of lunatics out here aren't we.

001...if you had to remove my post I do sincerely apoligize.

Mark- Wish I would have seen your post, but 001 does monitor these crazy conversations. and edit. I have had a few of mine removed.

Just trying to stay on his good side.

I haven't even posted here, whatever.

Plano,

If you've read any of my posts in this article you would have seen that I have admitted that Toyota and Lexus is not as innovative as some of the Germanic brands. However you are still missing the BIG PICTURE. Most customers don't care about where something came from as long as it workds well. Did the fact that Audi was not the first to come out with Airbags and ABS deter you from buying your A4? Apparently not.

LexusIS350,

German car fans all know deep down that Lexus can, and eventually will, overpass everything Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Jaguar are famous for. Lexus doesn't struggle to keep up with the competition, the competition struggles to keep up with Lexus. No one can deny this. You can say what you want about this, German fans, but you know it's true.
--------------------------------

LOL!

In your fucking dreams, moron. Lexus isn't even an international brand. Lexus has no appeal worldwide. None. You think Lexus can ever catch up to the image of the classic European brands?

No.

That's why your statement is totally hilarious.

huu76,

You say U.S. market isn't the only market, then you say Germans offer what ppl want and Lexus doesn't. Uhhh, you think hatchbacks, wagons and diesels sell very well here? I'd say Germany is just offering them here to get rid of excess capacity. Why don't they built trucks, it's clear the market wants it.
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How old are you? Dumb comment. We're talking about the international secenery here. Lexus isn't a global brand like the German marques. The US stigma against diesels comes from our performance-biased magazines that make people think we need fast high-revving piss-poor fuel economy cars to get from A to B and because of our perceptions of diesel engines that was ruined by GM's POS 350cid diesel. Hatchbacks? I got news for you. If Lexus offered an IS hatchack and coupe in Europe with smaller engines, hey, maybe they'd sell a few!



Image is only because old-money Europe is too racist to accept a superior car from a non-white country. Yes, that's what I said. The working class don't have any problems accepting superior Toyotas (ever increasing European sales prove it).
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I have European ancestry, and your comment here is insulting to me. What does racism have to do with the issue? If Europeans were so racist as you claim, then why are they buying Japanese cars? Why not open your eyes for a second. Toyota's are cheap, well built and bring you from A to B. Many people want something like that. Enough said.


Toyota isn't copying the Germans anymore, that's why they're so upset. Copying gives them legitimacy, which they're losing because their cars are underperforming and nolonger able to backup their marketing claims.
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Why would the Germans be upset if Toyota doesn't copy them anymore? Excuse me but do you happen to work at a German car company and the big boss just told you that he's worried that the Nips ain't copying us anymore!? I don't think so.


The problem with German cars is that they're too German. In the design stage, they won't acknowledge a defect because they suffer from "Germans are always right" syndrome, hence the junk cars that get released (i.e. BMW). If they were more Japanese, they'd have better cars.
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Funniest comment ever! 10/10!!!



Acuras look like nothing else on the road. Honda's the same. Toyota's have their own look now, as does Lexus. Even the Coreans have stopped copying the Germans and are copying the Japanese now. Sure, everyone copies Germany. Just keep on telling yourself that.
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Who are the Coreans? I looked on a map and couldn't find such a country. Did these guys just declare their independance? Is that an ex-Soviet satelite state?

And in the business world, an idea will be copied, it's so simple. Copying in the car business is a way of life. G

Zedani,

How many percents of people care about Germans' cars and their Heritage?
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You asking this shows how idiotic you are.

This is the thing that makes a true luxury car. Heritage creates brand image and that's where the appeal comes in.

Zedani,

Lexus soon to be the world largest premium car maker...
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Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

What a moron. Lexus is not even a global brand yet, and may never be. The appeal of Lexus was a premium car for less money and with more options. That worked in the US.

Global luxury buyers demand heritage, more engine choices, different trim levels etc. Lexus has lagging behind in these areas. So please tell me how they will become the worlds best selling luxury car?

Ask your average world citizen what car he wants to drive and I will bet with you that he'll say Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Rolls-Royce... NOT Lexus.

Zedani24, you're a moron. I've seen your posts here. You truly are a brainless idiot.

00JT- Well you are correct in the fact that Lexus does not bring technological advances to the vehicle. Their Kaisen philosophy does allow them to improve the manufacturing process because is will better the product.

It is an odd philosophy to a degree, it encourages the elimination of errors in the process and a encourages consistent products. But it is so strange that it basically stifles the advancement of the overall design. I know it is not true but it seems that without others to copy they would not exist. The philosophy only allows for development and creativity inside the box so to speak.

Since the Lexus meets your needs, I understand you really don’t worry about the overload of advances out here by the Germans(trivial or not). I can see that point. It is why some people can make mountains of money, and others want to scale mountains. To each their own. We are in a world where values are self imposed, the Germans think technology is the future, the Japanese think marketing takes a front seat. I see the value in both.

However how do you want to weigh your respect? Mountains of money made by someone else or improvement to life for all via technology. I have made my choice, and you have yours.

I never ceased to be amazed that people actually try to compare japanese cars to German Automobiles. People who buy high-end japanese cars think they are getting the same quality and performance as a German Automobile but are saving a few thousand dollars. Nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone, including an intermiate level back-yard mechanic, can build or modify an engine to have 300+ horsepower or add electronic gadgets to accessorize a car. What really matters, however, is the fundamentals of a car, i.e. the safety, longevity and long-term performance. When you really get down to the bottom of the matter, you must look at the primary purpose of a car. To get you from point A to B safely is the most important. Next is to get you from Point A to Poiint B without a major mechanical failure. And, finally, if your putting out more than $50K for a car, the car should last for a very long time and maintain its performance over the life of the vehicle. Safety comes first. When I refer to Safety I mean real Safety. Not what some insurance company determined Safety to mean by running a car into a wall at 40 MPH in a test lab. If anyone, who knows anything about cars, knew that they were going to be involved in a serious collision at Highway Speed or in a rollover accident, would they choose to be in a japanese car or a German Automobile? If they are honest they will choose the German Automobile without question. If anyone, who knows anything about cars, were asked to choose a car based upon how long the car will last, would they choose a japanese car over a German Automobile? Never. I recently confronted my Sister-In-Law who bragged that her Camry, with 209,000 Miles, had been religiously serviced by the dealer and still ran great. I asked to drive it to verify her statements. The engine had nothing left. The compression was gone, there was no acceleration the engine sputtered and was just a complete nightmare. In turn, I asked her to drive my 1998 C280 with 181,000 Miles which has never had a serious engine or transmission problem. She was amazed and rightfully so, because the car still runs like it did when it was new. This is also true of my 2000 SL500 and my 2001 E320. Why is this the case. The simple answer is that behind every German Automobile are people that are obsessed with cars. They don't compete with the japanese except on how many stupid electronic gadgets they can put into the car to satisfy the American consumer. In Germany most people buy cars without A/C, without power windows, without cup holders and without any of the other stupid gadgets that serve only to interfere with a driver's attention to the road. You see, German Engineers eat and breath the very essence of cars, i.e. safety, the engine, the transmission and other vital mechanical parts. The Japanese, on the other hand, want to sell cars regardless of their safety. They focus on nonsensical items to attract buyers who either don't have eno

Continued:

who either dont' have enough money to buy German or are willing to sacrfice true Safety and Quality for a few thousand dollars. In the final analysis, I guess a japanese car is alright if you don't value your Life and intend to rid yourself of the car every couple of years. If, on the other hand, you value your safety and see a vehicle as a long-term purchase, you should stick the tried and tested German Automobile.

Will:
I don't know how old you are, but you clearly don't have much experience to back up your statements. I usually try to convince people to buy a Mercedes or BMW for their own protection. As for you, just keep driving your Rice Rocket. Some people have to learn the hard way.

Plano,

I consider myself the average consumer. If I'm about to make a major purchase of course I will do a little homework and corss shop before I buy. I don't think when I choose to buy Lexus people will look down on them as being not so innovative. I think most people that look down on Lexus feel threatened that Lexus is really becomming a force to be reckoned with in the automotive world. When I buy Lexus I feel like I am buying the superior car due to: value, performance, luxury, and reliabuility. Innovation does not cross my mind nor the average consumer's mind. So long as a product works well people (myself included) could care less about where it came from.

OOJT:
I hate becoming involvewd in this discussion but when I read what people are saying I am shocked. You must understand something: japanese cars are not safe. If you have a family, do yourself a favor. Protect them. Without getting into details, I know what I am talking about. The safest care in the world: the Mercedes-Benz E320. In addition, it will last forever if you take care of it. Protect yourself and your Family, by a German Automobile.

Well I guess these anti-lex are just jealous of the fact that LEXUS has pushed the envelope and has set a new world standard in the luxury/premium class segment...that's simply it, and they're talkin' bout "heritage" that Toyota lacks, well again what do they call the 70 PLUS years of experience of Lexus' mother company Toyota??? And that experience helped them to create a world class luxury car brand which is now slowly kicking the butts of these fabled german brands. Right??? Also even mercedes' 2007 S-Class and other german brands copy some of BMW's design elements like the absence of side skirts (the protruding plastic/metal line below the door handles), and the very famous "Bangle butt" among many others. How bout the idrive against the same thing with mercedes'?? See?? So what's the point of putting Lexus down, EVEN german brands themselves copy each other. Come on, maybe it's just hard to imagine that a new comer could do some of the world's greatest automotive achievements, wake up, these german brands are now "not alone" in the luxury class. I have nothing against german brands, I respect these fine automobiles they among the are world leaders, but the truth just really hurts i guess...WAGI ang LEXUS!!!! ;)

Will...you know what I would like to see? Someone like yourself making comments (again) about how Lexus is superior to the European brands in value, quality, safety, and reliability than any German product...and producing facts.

You want to produce actually facts and then talk about them, great. But stop pushing your opinions out here and hoping people will believe you.

Same goes for the other camps. We all know what everyone's opinion is....lets try and take it up a notch.

Will:
I am a personal injury attorney and I actually represent people who are injured in the very cars you claim to be so safe. Have you ever seen someone involved in a roll over accident in a japanese car. Have you ever hired an expert witness to explain the safety differences between cars. Japanese cars, and most american cars for that matter, are not made to withstand serious accidents. Although I now regret interjecting myself into this debate, I have seen the crash victims and I have talked to automotive safety engineers. The japanese cars will withstand minor impacts but if you are ever involved in a serious accident you better pray to God you are in a German car. FYI, several years ago, circa 1999, 20/20 dedicated an entire episode to the dangers of American and Japanese cars in roll over accidents. Personally, I hope you choose to drive a safer car. It is, however, your decision and if you feel good about the safety of the car you drive I guess that is all that matters. Nevertheless, it wouldn't hurt to ease up on the accelerator the next time you approach a sharp curve. Best of luck.

Will:
Unfortunately, there is nothing I can say to change your mind. Rather than belaboring the point, I think the best thing you can do to verify the veracity of my statements is to take a trip to the largest junk yard in your area. Ask the manager to show you some German and japanese cars that have been involved in rollover accidents. You will notice that when the german car rolls the impact that inevitably occurs at the top the door actually causes the side to bend in slightly and the roof is raised even further from the driver's head. On the japanese car, however, the roof will crush directly down on to the inhabitants. If this does not covince you, nothing I say ever will.

gwetherall,

Instead of relying on personal experiences, lets just look at the facts.

www.iihs.org

You'll find that Lexus cars are just as safe (some of them safer) than German cars.

First, I think the IIHS does rate german cars consistently higher than japanese. More importantly, you need to understand the mission of the IIHS. Most of the claims which are paid out by insurance companies arise from low impact collisions. Given that the IIHS is an organization funded solely by insurance companies, their primary objective is to encourage auto makers to engineer cars that reduce injuries in low impact collissions so the insurance companies will have less to pay out on the vast majority of their claims. All of the Institute's testing is directed at analyzing these types of collission. Moreover, Death and/or serious injury seldom occurs in these types of crashes. This is true of almost any car made today. When I question the safety of certain vehicles, I am refering to serious accidents, the ones that cause death, dismemberment and paralysis. For these types of crashes the Institute does no testing whatsoever. Therefore, if you want to see real facts, go to your local junk yard and discover for yourself as I suggested in my previous post. I know what you will find. The one good thing is that you will have learned the truth by investigation rather than learning it the hard way as did the unfortunate souls who were passengers in the cars you get to see.

gwertherall,

Perhaps you didn't bother looking at the site. If you did you would have noticed that:

The Lexus GS scored higher than both the Mercedes E Class and BMW 5 Series

Lexus IS scored higher than the Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, and Mercedes C Class

Lexus ES scored higher than the BMW 3 Series and Mercedes C Class.

Our local junk yard is not filled with Lexus, BMW, Mercedes or any high end late model car. If anything the cars in our local junkyard mostly consist of many cars from the 80's and 90's. If I had to name one particular car I saw most often it has to be the Honda Civic. But we are not talking about Civics, we're talking about highly advanced, well engineered, late model Japanese and German cars.

Most accidents I see on the road are head-on or side impact collissions. Actually most of the cars in the junkyard had front end and side damage. The IIHS tests these two types of collissions which happen to be the most common. In a poorly designed car these crashes can cause serious injuries or death.

You are oblivious to reality. I go to these salvage yards on a regular basis. I know the facts of which I speak. I really don't care what car you drive. In two days, I have quickly come to realize that noone on this website is here to learn anything about truth. Each and every one of you is here to support a predetermined notion that has no basis in fact or reality. If you drive your car hard, I suspect that, sooner or later, you will wreck one. Despite the warnings I have given you, I just hope your grey matter doesn't serve as potato chip dip for the top of your roof. I am a busy person, and I don't have time to waste chatting with idiots. Ironically, I came accross this site by accident when searching for an advanced alignment facility. I have no animosity for any of you. I just hope you wake up before you Die. Unfortunately, from the reactions I see on this website, I am confident that your own death will be the only event that ends the debate.

OOJT:
I redally have no desire to speak with you further. If you think off-side head-on collisions are the most common you have lost your mind. The most common collisions are low-impact rear-end collisions which primarily occur in stop-and-go traffic or at traffic lights. There is nothing I can say to help you. Please do not respond I have no desire to engage in further communications with you. I wish you the very best in all of your future endeavors.

Will -

First of all my post was to you and not to any car or rather anything to do with a car. Yes I understand that opinions are important but with all of these mindless Lexus is/isn't better than European brands I am just getting tired of people continuing to say things without backing them up from where they got the information. I don't sleep with a model Lexus under my pillow so I am not going to know every little perfect fact about them. But what you don't do is recgonize thier flaws or where there MIGHT be a car that does something better. Before you call someone something make damn sure you can back it up.

You and logical don't give many other cars the time of day and yet I have to believe that part of you knows that Lexus isn't 100% perfect. Maybe you do think that and well, then I am right in you can't see the other side of the road and that is a weakness.

And please have the courtesy to not put my name with someone else's comment. If you haven't noticed I am one of the few that tries to stay neutral and not really call out anyone in a degrading fashion. I have no idea what you drive and I really don't want to go look at your post in the "Current Car" article, so I am not going to call out my assumption you drive a rice rocket.

And by the way, I do like Lexus and if you have the time to actually read some of my posts you will find that I like all the models of Lexus and OH MY, BMW and MB....but then I must be abnormal right?

Sorry for the repost.....lag at work.

gwetherall,

Last time I checked fender-benders are not considered as fatal accidents. Bit I suppose in a poorly designed car it could cuase whiplash. In any case, best of luck to you too!

I hope japaneese carmaker are theft because they work is copy from europe and us carmakers.
In body,In Performance,In Systems,and other factors.

I hope Lexus,toyota,infinity,acura and other jap . car is beautiful because this cars copied.
In 1886 car born in germany by diamler company(mercedes benz).where was lexus?where was acura?
they are mads who think lexus is better than Mercedes or any europe carmakers.
I think cause successfully japanese carmakers is people cheat, and cheap cars.(no any have good factors.)
In advertisement for anywhere in football , tennis , and etc.

mojtaba,

If Mercedes invented the car, then is it safe to say that EVERY automaker copied from them? Including Germanic automakers? So why are Japanese cars getting all the heat?

BTW other than biased criticism, name one thing that a current Mercedes car is better at than a comparable current Lexus car.

DarkOneForce? Did you say that Lexus does not offer manuals? Are we talking about books or are we talking about transmissions? Please name a Benz that has a manual transmission.

On another note, Gibson was probably driving his BMW when they pulled him over. =)) Deutschland pride was pumping through his vains. Don't blame him. =))

I myself do think agree that Lexus is no competion for German cars like the BMW. As a BMW driver I disagree that people buy German cars like BMW, Benz and other german cars with a and for a Snob appeal i think they do it for the better quality of a car. I have a friend that owns a Lexus and I thought it down right sucked