VW Still Obsessed With The Phaeton, What Will It Take To Make It A Success?

The story of the Phaeton is directly linked to BWM's ambitions for the Bentley acquisition 12 years ago. Corporate VW could never have made a business case for launching a new Bentley if it didn't have a platform to "lean-on" and this Phaeton platform is it.

Note that the (likely superior) Audi A8 architectur/platform IS NOT the basis for the Flying Spur or the Phaeton - they are completely separate.

I'm not sure how this Bentley/Phaeton program could have been a success for VW (aside from earning bragging rights about snagging Bentley from BMW).

You see it in the simple facts that:
(a) the Phaeton has soldiered on for over 10 years with only miniscule refreshes. It wasn't even leading edge in 2004 when it was new and its not now.
(b) While the Continental and the Flying Spur have been touted as "brand-new" those designs are really not much more than refreshes either.

Go to your local Bentley dealer in a nice outfit and a fancy watch and fish around about purchasing one to see how much "cash back" the dealer offers. In the NY area - there seems to be tons of inventory and the discount seems to be in the $20,000 range.

Only time will tell how Corporate VW fixes this problem. With the next Phaeton on the VW Corporate MLB platform (basis for the Euro Passat, the A4 and the A6) one must wonder what happens to the Bentley Continental and Flying Spur.

Are Bentley's days numbered? By the way, there are still about 500 unsold Bugatti Veyrons around the world - anybody knows what the deals on those are?

price it like a VW then people will buy

I'm not sure where you information on Bugatti sales comes from? According to this, Bugatti only made slightly less than 500 Veyrons:
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/20/veyron-replacement-coming-no-successor/

Since almost every car off the line was custom built for each buyer, I find it hard to believe that Bugatti did not sell any cars.

If you have to wonder about what discounts are being offered on a Veyron, or even a Bentley for that matter - - - will lets just say that you are not part of their target market. The Phaeton, well that is another story.

It really gets down to branding. VW has always been branded as "The Peoples Car". That means it is always going to be in a lower market bracket then Audi etc. To keep the Phaeton going it needs to be priced
below a comparable Audi. First off I would not make it the size of an Audi A8. It must be no larger than an Audi A6 and should be priced closer to an Audi A4 than an A6. That might mean even building it in the US or Mexico. It should only be offered with V6 or turbo 4 or turbo 5 cylinder engines. It might be worth while to use an elongated US Passat platform for it. It can offer features of the previous Phaeton but a fully loaded one must cost under 50 grand.If VW can do this they can probably get good sales out of it. Nobody is going spend 80 to 100 grand on one so VW is wasting there time with this kind of pricing.

While I doubt they could keep it under 50K fully loaded, I think $60k would be the breaking point. Still far below other "flagship" models, and still within reach of a pretty good segment of buyers. People might (and I do mean "might") pay $60k, but go above that and other manufacturers (with higher name "cache") are far too attractive.

Give it a $50K price cut so it is priced like an Avalon, Azera, Taurus, or Impala and then really focus on build quality and reliability (two VW issues) and it might have a chance if it didn't look like a decade-old inflated Jetta. When the Phaeton was pulled it was easily topping $100K.

Trying to make a super luxury car under the VW brand is a big mistake. As others on this list have pointed out, VW is a people mover, not a premium brand.

If you want to salvage the Phaeton, restyle the exterior so it doesn’t look like a big Passat, and rebrand it as an Audi.

I leased a 2004 Phaeton for 2yrs and found it to be one of the best cars on the market at the time. It was certainly a better car than the Mercedes and BMW's at the time.

As one who works in Real Estate and does business consulting I can say that most folk who had only heard of or seen the Phaeton had similar thoughts that others have expressed here on the forum about an $80K VW.

After my clients and associates rode in one, and they could not believe how great the car was.

Yes, I took a lot of teasing about leasing a $80K VW however, after actually riding in the Phaeton on a few 1 to 2 hour road trip, my clients and associates, who mostly drove S Class Mercedes and 7 Series BMW',s came to understand why I liked the Phaeton so much; and a few of them leased one for themselves.

As far as technology goes, it was not behind in 2004 though I would not say it was a leader in technology.

What the Phaeton was and still is today is one of the best engineered cars in the world. That engineering was evident once you drove one and more evident if you owned one.

Riding in the cabin with the best engineered HVAC system to ever be engineered into an automobile, siting in seats that won awards for design and comfort while listening to the award winning optional sound system could not be beat. Road trips to Palm Springs or Santa Barbara were like Zen experiences. Nothing mattered once on the road.

I enjoyed the car so much that ordered a custom 2006 Phaeton from their individual service and then the bad news came that VW was going to stop importing the car. I ended up canceling the order but I will never forget that experience.

For a brief time I believe the VW Phaeton was the best luxury car in the world and was without a doubt the best value among the luxury cars of that time. And yes, I drove the S-Class and 7 series and the Flying Spur.

The fact that the Phaeton is still produced is a testament to how well it was engineered from the beginning and the car still holds up well against the completion today though a redesign is coming soon.

Alas VW made a change in marketing and rather than build cars to compete with the other German brands with value they decided to focus on de-contenting and lower prices to compete at the lowest common denominator Toyota and Honda, etc.

I for one miss the Phaeton here in the U.S.

Again-However well engineered it was and is it is still a Volkswagen. That in a nutshell is the problem.Volkswagen can simply not get away with pricing any of their cars over $50,000. Not when you have Audi, BMW ,Mercedes, Jaguar,Maserati, and Cadillac.It all comes down to branding. Volkswagen has boxed themselves into a corner. It has been and always will be the "Peoples Car".The easiest way to keep the cost of a Phaeton within reason is to build it on the current platform of the US Passat. Make the platform longer and a bit wider. Add all the ameneties previous Phaeton's have had. Offer it in a V6 and V6 diesel. That is the only way to do it and to sell it.

Not everyone is a badge whore and wants to shout, look at me. There are those of us who do appreciate German engineering and good value without the badge. And,there are plenty of people with means that can appreciate a VW for what it is. But it takes time to develop that type of clientele. The Phaeton, in my opinion was a good start.

The Phaeton was a great statement car and had VW continued down this path, their growth would not have been as rapid as going for the lowest common denominator has been, but with their sales sliding now, we'll have to see if competing at the low end was the right strategy.

It is a mute point for now since the car is no longer imported into the U.S. and VW has decide to play at the low end of the market.

Thank you dbtimes! I own a 2008 V8 Phaeton which I regularly drive up from Switzerland through France to England and back and this is the best car I have ever encountered. The letter above goes into the details, and in my opinion this is a far superior car to any fashion struck Mercedes or BMW, precisely because it was the exclusive vision of a total genius, the then boss of VW Dr Ferdinand Piëch. If you ever drive or ride in one you will understand why it has achieved sheer cult status among the cognoscenti. This is an extremely intelligent move by VW for the reasons they have stated. I thank God for the Chinese, who do not suffer from rank badge snobbery, and who buy a lot of Phaetons and have kept the sales flowing and this model alive over recent years. Those who disrespect VW are either victims of what seems a lamentably poor dealer network in the USA or just sheer ignorance based on snobbery. I look forward eagerly to seeing and judging for myself whether the new car will justify the name and excellence of the first.

Assuming VW can overcome their build quality and reliability issues, they need to target the American market much differently. By building the Up and Polo in China where worker wages are still cheap, they could have two vehicles on the market that are advantageously priced. VW's internal quality assessment shows that China actually delivers better than German build as does Chattanooga. They need to do clean sheet rethinks of the Jetta and Passat so that they are competitive and stylish. The CC needs to be an Impala / Taurus / Avalon sized competitor. Replace the terrible Tiguan with something that can actually compete against the CRV. They need the next Amarok. The Crossblue cannot come fast enough.

VW in Germany probably thinks the key to success is to bring two overpriced duds (Scirocco and Phaeton) to the USA.

Why aren't they happy with the A8? It's a good enough car. The pricing for this is wrong, no matter where in the world you are.

I really like this car myself.. Ill browse used ones every once and a while but I feel like they would be a mechanical nightmare at higher miles. Plus expensive since there were never many on the roads here..

My wife owned VWs and they were reliability nightmares. Now she drives a Kia Optima. Heck, the hand me down Maserati Qporte we have is actually more reliable than a VW.

dont see the purpose of the mercury grand marquis version when the towncar ( A8L ) is fine and worth the price.
if VW scrolls up and sees all the comments it really mostly comes down to price, at 10k more, most people would rather get an 80k audi than a 70k VW.
this car basically would need to be like the A8 but priced at 50k tops. then it makes sense, and its also game over for the EQUUS.

VW has Audi (just like Toyota has Lexus), so why would VW destroy its branding identity as a "value" product? Would Toyota attempt to convert the Avalon into an LS killer?

This is marketing 101 - don't dilute your brand with line extensions that are inconsistent with your brand's message. UGH.

What a load of uninformed crap from people who have simply not experienced this wonderful car.

Will supposedly be an A7 style coupe slightly downmarket from the current one.