Power Wars: Who Actually Has the Best Design?

In case you haven’t noticed. The German Premium manufactures and the Japanese Luxury manufactures are in the middle of power war to determine who has the best design and figures.

Who has the best designs regardless of size?

Horsepower per liter is the commonly accepted formula for gauging the overall efficiency and performance of a motor regardless of displacement. Any manufacture can insert a large power plant into a vehicle and make it go faster, however it takes a high degree of technological expertise and finesse to extract every last horsepower and ft/lb of torque out of any given design. These technological achievements are typically evident across the entire line up, and are not limited to one or two designs. This also is considered an indicator of how mature the development of the product lineup is when compared to their peers.

With all of the recent banter of who is the best, and really possesses the leading edge. I did an analysis of the big three German Premium Brand and the Big Three Japanese Luxury Brands to see how the figures actually pan out. The results were surprising to me to say the least. I took all of the current auto models and engine specifications for each, and inputted these into a matrix and extrapolated the average horsepower and torque figures per liter for each manufacturer. I did exclude Diesel models (only one) but left in Turbocharged, Supercharged, and Performance Hybrids as they are all considered valid enhancement technologies.

Here are the results:

Horsepower/Liter
91.21 Audi
87.35 Acura
82.55 BMW
82.53 Mercedes Benz
78.74 Lexus
78.30 Infiniti

Ft/Lbs of Torque/Liter
84.95 Mercedes Benz
84.09 Audi
75.42 Infiniti
72.95 Acura
72.48 BMW
72.30 Lexus

As you can clearly see those with less effective designs tend to trail in the matrix. It is interesting to note that while Acura has smallest overall displacement average of only 2.78 liters across the board, it ranks second in the horsepower produced with that smaller displacement. Simply doing more with less is the case here. Whoever said, “there is no replacement for displacement” didn’t do the math.

Avg. Displacement Across the Lineup
5.90 Liters MB
4.20 Liters Audi
4.20 Liters BMW
3.95 Liters Lexus
3.90 Liters Infiniti
2.78 Liters Acura

BimmerFan - 8/31/2006 1:43:11 PM

+1 Boost

oh brother.... another brand war begins. LOL.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 2:47:43 PM

+2 Boost

Audi currently only markets the 1.8t and the 2.0t the others if you take them out of the mix still place first but barely.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 2:50:55 PM

+2 Boost

XeroKool- F1 is currently led by: Renault then Ferrari and they were not part of this exercise. The rest are very far back in the pack.

kart1 - 8/31/2006 3:00:58 PM

+2 Boost

Honda/Acura has always been the leader in this segment, because of their VTEC they have always had high hp/liter numbers (S2000 2.0l, RSX type S, Civic SI, etc). These cars all made 100hp/liter. I am not surprised to see them there. Good job for Audi (Its good that the 2.5l isn't used in Audi's).

kart1 - 8/31/2006 3:03:25 PM

+2 Boost

The V-8's in the Lexus sure need to change fast because rivals are making more hp/liter in their engines from about the same size.

There is no replacement for displacement, well sometimes.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 3:20:19 PM

+1 Boost

Kart1- If I took out the 430h engine out of the scenario, Lexus would be dead last. This suprised me. It looks like they are leaning on the existing Hybrid technology to give an added boost, where the others are using other time tested technologies. Actually the Hybrid engines assist very little over the base v8. I guess the question arises do they have the resources to push it further?

M53R - 8/31/2006 3:48:40 PM

0 Boost

BMW M cars get 100+hp/litre but audi uses turbos.

aefsc430 - 8/31/2006 3:55:12 PM

0 Boost

This seems to me like another attempt to criticize the Japanese by PlanoA4.

webguy - 8/31/2006 4:07:13 PM

0 Boost

I'd like to see the same numbers with turbos, superchargers and hybrids excluded... and add fuel efficiency to the mix. (MPG/0-60mph or 0-100kmh) That, in my opinion would be a much better indication of technological achievement and engine efficiency.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 4:25:54 PM

+1 Boost

M53R- You are correct both M engine are 100 hp/liter. The problem with BMW is they make several lower tuned levels of the 3.0 liter 6 cylinder. These hurt their averages. These entry levels are large engines with little power per liter. The big shock to me was they had no torque compared to the others. Audi's turbo motor do make a somewhat a difference but BMW could have done that too. However with the turbo out of the mix, the Audi motors still were in the top spot. BTW the RS4 V8 is 100 hp/liter matching the turbos.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 4:27:52 PM

+1 Boost

webguy- I will pull the turbos and superchargers, and hybrids out of the mix and repost in this thread, though it might be tommorrow. The gas mileage would be another posting because that depends more on the car is is rated in, this is a bit more clear cut.

Designer1 - 8/31/2006 4:30:03 PM

+1 Boost

Another meaningless analysis, GOD! When 2 engine power per liter is compared, the 2 engines MUST be of the same size. e.g. Compare the MB 4.3 V8 against the Lexus 4.3 V8. Compare the BMW's 3.0 I6 against the Lexus 3.0 V6, etc...
Don't compare a 5.5 V8 against a 4.3 V8 and brag, that's shame and stupid. So go do your math one more time please.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 4:31:16 PM

+2 Boost

aefsc430- Criticise the Japanese cars? well not really. I guess alot of the Japanese fans want respect in the marketplace, and this article rings home the fact they are not there just quite yet. The Japanese have reliability knocked out in general, however they need to be at the forefront of more than one area to garner the respect from the groups they emulate.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 4:37:33 PM

+2 Boost

Designer1- The reason you have to rank via hp/liter is because most makers have different sizes. Like there is not a 4.3 liter BMW but there is a 4.3 Lexus motor. How else are you going to do this?

KeyserSoze - 8/31/2006 4:41:46 PM

-1 Boost

Plano, Your obsession trying to prove your lousy underachieving Jetta-A4 A6-Passat Phaeton-A8 Q7-Toureg are up the are so funny.

KeyserSoze - 8/31/2006 4:49:28 PM

-1 Boost

Plano, Keep on convincing yourself about your one sided biased opinions and facts. Turbocharging is like taking shortcuts and that is what AUDI Does.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 4:57:13 PM

+3 Boost

KeyserSore- Find a better way other than slander, I am using non bias data. I challenge you to do better.

CarNut - 8/31/2006 5:00:33 PM

+3 Boost

KeyserSoze I see u dont know a lot about VAG, in fact u showed us u dont know anything about it at all.

Either that or u need glasses if u cant see just the size difference between VW and ur rebadged VW.

Ups I meant to say rebadged Porches

KeyserSoze - 8/31/2006 5:37:24 PM

-2 Boost

Carnuts, I do not really care for those rebadged VW's. They all look the same.

BMW530i - 8/31/2006 5:44:57 PM

+2 Boost

Toyota has all the technologies to raise hp/L if they ever want to, but they don't, simply because they want to remain as an environmentally responsible company.
---------------------------------------------

Wow, so those V8 Toyota Landcruisers are environmentally friendly? *SARCASM*

No company is really environmentally friendly. Cars already pollute on the assembly line. The materials needed to make them have to be created, cut etc. and generate their own waste (electricity usage for instance).

1970toyotamarc - 8/31/2006 6:23:59 PM

+2 Boost

I would have to see the methodology.

My breakdown on Lexus shows an 80.1 hp/L. And that includes the soon to be replaced 4.3 (GS430) and 4.7 (GX and LX). Without those 2, the figure is 85.2

I'm sure I am using similar figures to you, as my Acura numbers come within one point. (Tho if you remove the soon to be discontinued RSX, Acura's number falls)

Numbers can be manipulated to tell you anything you want to hear.

1970toyotamarc - 8/31/2006 6:26:52 PM

+1 Boost

Correction, that should be "my Acura numbers come within one tenth of a point"

chewy - 8/31/2006 7:06:51 PM

+2 Boost

HP per liter isn't the only measure of efficiency. However it does indicate some things. Right now, the Lexus LS 460 is the most fuel efficient "powerfull" engine with 380 hp and 19/27. Audi has 350 hp and 18/25. MB gets 382 hp and 15-16/23-24. BMW has 360 and gets 15-17/23-25.

kart1 - 8/31/2006 7:47:20 PM

0 Boost

I believe that Lexus V-8's will be as efficient, if not more (the 4.6), than their competitors within a year and a half or so.

chewy - 8/31/2006 7:52:36 PM

+2 Boost

kart1

Read my post, I list all of the numbers. Audi should improve their nubmers when they put valve lift on their engines in couple of years.

chewy - 8/31/2006 7:57:38 PM

+2 Boost

Yes, the 2.0T also gets better fuel economy than the Lexus 200 hp or BMW's 325 engine, all because of turbo charging. Also, VW has the twincharger (turbo plus suprercharger) It has 170 hp and if it came here it would get milage like 28/36. Turbocharging is the best way to make a very efficient engine, especially in the 200 hp range.

mstangpny07 - 8/31/2006 9:16:49 PM

0 Boost

efox:
"Turbocharging makes a car better, obviously." Uh, well no. Turbocharging, like in my 9-3 2.0t, has something called Turbo Lag. When you step on the gas, the engine revs up w/o much acceleration, then the turbo kicks in, and jolts you back in your seat. It's not silky smooth. And you get most of your torque in the low rpms, usually. BMW would not have wanted this because they wanted their engines to be smooth, have a good torque range, and have 50/50 weight distrobution. This is very difficult to do. Yet they pulled if off. Good job, BMW.

mstangpny07 - 8/31/2006 9:23:25 PM

0 Boost

I don't think the Swedes made the engine. GM did. It has more boost than twin-charging, so that's why they didn't twin charge it.

mstangpny07 - 8/31/2006 9:27:27 PM

+1 Boost

And I wouldn't want to be getting 14 mpg and paying for premium gas!
My 24 mpg midgrade has plenty of boost when I need it.
Not too much torque-steer either...

mstangpny07 - 8/31/2006 9:33:58 PM

0 Boost

You can drive fast in any car.

mstangpny07 - 8/31/2006 9:38:04 PM

0 Boost

Who drives Model T's?
The NHTSA wouldn't allow a mass-produced car to be impoted or sold if it couldn't reach 75mph. (Which is the speed limit in some rural parts.)
So you can go fast in any car that's made mostly after 1970.

mstangpny07 - 8/31/2006 9:40:06 PM

0 Boost

don't reply.
I WIN.

chewy - 8/31/2006 9:59:30 PM

+2 Boost

wow, of topic and weird arguments. Actually, I have never heard that a car that can't go abouve 75 mph would be illegal. Because in 99% of United States, going 75 would technically be illegal. Now lets get back on topic.

chewy - 8/31/2006 10:04:00 PM

+2 Boost

Also, the W12 Audi engine pictured looks awesome.

mstangpny07 - 8/31/2006 10:04:04 PM

0 Boost

I meant that (I don't think) they wouldn't let a car with such a small engine be produced. It would be unsafe.

kart1 - 8/31/2006 10:31:42 PM

+1 Boost

Chewy I had read your post and was simply agreeing guy. The V-8 I am referring to is not the 4.6 it is the 4.7.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 11:16:42 PM

+2 Boost

webguy- Like I said I pulled all assisted technologies out of the Matrix such as Hybrids, Turbos, and Superchargers. It is a bit pointless, because all of the technologies are valid and accepted methods to boost preformance and are available to the public. The biggest effect was to Mercedes because they supercharge a variety of models rather than increase displacement needlessly. But in the interest of showing all sides here they are:

Non Boosted HP/Liter
87.65 Audi
87.35 Acura
82.55 BMW
78.25 Lexus
78.30 Infiniti
74.39 Mercedes Benz

Non Boosted Torque
82.65 Audi
75.42 Infiniti
73.34 Mercedes Benz
72.95 Acura
72.48 BMW
72.30 Lexus

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 11:18:44 PM

+1 Boost

XeroKool- Get off the reliability crutch, the figures are not showing what you want to see so you are tossing in an unrelated topic to cloud the air.

PlanoA4 - 8/31/2006 11:25:26 PM

+2 Boost

mstangpny07- You comment about turbo lag however you haven't probably driven a turbo since the 80's, if ever. If you actually drove one recently or read a test they say the current crop of German turbos hit most boost so low that they do not have turbo lag. The 2.0 liter Audi hits max boost at 2500 rpm. So you rev and go and there is no lag.

S4Super - 9/1/2006 12:33:15 AM

+1 Boost

Will BMW ever improve their interior design??

t_bone - 9/1/2006 1:11:00 AM

+1 Boost

Pulling Porsche out the running certainly avoids some embarrassing numbers. Like the outgoing GT3, which squeezes 380hp at 8,200rpm out of a 3.6 liter flat-six. That's 105hp/liter. And does it with a throttle response the others can't match.

IamEvilHomer - 9/1/2006 3:47:40 AM

+2 Boost

The A4 2.0T has no turbo lag

and yes the Saab 93 does and that sabaru is not a good car

REmember Audi also gets 100 bp per ltr on the RS4 and there is no turbo there (Would that rock if it did?)

I drove the RS4 again today// Damn that is a great car

T bone - porsche is not there nor Farari or all the other cars that are not a volume lux or sports car

Gert- this is not an Autospies headline it is a post like you can do

Will and Plano- HP is also diffrent in most Asian cars. In the US they don't test the engines with even the belts on but when tested with belts on (not under load meaning the A/C was on) the Asian cars and toyota was the biggest had the biggest drop/ as much as 20%) So this is just an article about engines but all that matters is Wheel hp

BMW530i - 9/1/2006 4:31:41 AM

+1 Boost

Actually, he has a point. Toyota plants are some of the cleanest and "environmentally-friendly" around. And, near 85% of Toyota vehicles are recyclable. AND, 99% of all scarp metal created by Toyota plants is recycled. AND, "The International Organization for Standardization (ISO) has certified the environmental management systems in place at all Toyota manufacturing plants in the U.S. and Canada to the ISO 14001 standard."
-------------------------------

MB does the same thing. ;)

BMW has some catching up to do here, but they do use recycled parts in their cars.

BMW530i - 9/1/2006 4:49:01 AM

+1 Boost

huu76,

The BMW550i (4.8L 360hp) at 75hp/L is a bit short. It seems all makes have problems getting even close to 100hp/L when they get into bigger displacement engines. MB C55 is 68hp/L, same as the LS430. It's just a numbers game, look at the S2000 at 120hp/L.
-------------------------------------

Horsepower per liter really isn't an efficient way of measuring who has the best engine. Consider this:

The European brands for instance design their engines first and foremost for the European market (and others) where emissions and engine capacity and power outputs are TAXED. These engines are already optimized for the "best possible performance" in regards to raw performance, fuel efficiency and emissions.

Then you have different ideas within the German brands. BMW looks for balance and optimization, Mercedes relies on large displacement engines for torque (which aids fuel economy and acceleration meaning that you don't need more horsepower) and Audi is sort of inbetween these two.

The Japanese luxury brands have the advantage of making their engines for the US market specifically, hence sometimes they can afford to tickle more power out of them.

And the Honda S2000 comparison is rather weak. Honda's philosophy is pretty much making motorcycles on 4 wheels. The S2000 is a raw racecar with a high-reving engine. Honda set out to produce a N/A car with over 100-hp per liter, they succeeded. But you can't compare a Honda 2.0 4-cyl from the S2000 to a BMW V8: both engines serve a completely different purpose.

XYZZ - 9/1/2006 5:03:56 AM

+1 Boost

it's understandable that toyota plants are clean.

AVOIDING WASTE is one of the cornerstones of toyota's philosophy. some have posited that was why they got into hybrids early, before it seemed there was even a business case for the technology.

XYZZ - 9/1/2006 6:58:57 AM

0 Boost

the competition for best hp/L figures in cars is bush league compared to that with motorcycles.

suzuki cars don't get much respect. but the specific output of their bike engines put even porsche to shame, to say nothing of audi and bmw.

ditto yamaha. ditto kawasaki. ditto honda.

how do bmw bikes compare vs. honda?

PlanoA4 - 9/1/2006 9:19:31 AM

+1 Boost

BMW530i- About ISO 14001, some of you guys are talking that Toyota is so eco-friendly that they made their plants ISO 14001 compliant.

That is all and good but they are not alone:

GM made it a mandate in 1999 to have all plants ISO 14001 in 2 years

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/plants/conserving_resources/env_mgt_sys.html

Ford started in 2001 with a goal of 2002 for all plants and suppliers to be certified. I would imagine that is complete now.

TUV required German makers have plants and suppliers ISO 14001 certified by 2002.

So really Toyota is just doing what every other responsible manufacturer is doing. However they are just advertising it, while the others quietly have done it for quite a while now.

So give the PR dept an A+ for giving the consumer an added sense of value that is no different than anyone else. That is image control at its finest.

PlanoA4 - 9/1/2006 9:42:08 AM

+1 Boost

Will- who actually has the best design of an engine is open to a never-ending debate that will never get a resolution.

All I was going for here was that, if we applied a commonly accepted performance bench mark to the lineups then how would it come out.

In theory using these figure if all manufacturers made a 4.5 liter motor (or any size) how would they compare. Simply multiply the hp/liter number by 4.5 to see who would have an advantage. This would great for toying with the potential output of a propose Acura V8 based on past performance of the brand.

In general the more technology packed into an engine and the better the design affects both fuel consumption and power output. Power output is pretty constant across the lineup with some variations. Gas mileage has too many variables to consider without smoke and mirrors so even I won’t go there. (Nice to know I have some boundaries).

In this comparison you can see the AMG models of Mercedes, and the use of superchargers can make a big difference overall. They simply have a lot of high performance models across the lineup. The lack of variety absolutely kills Infiniti even though they use the legendary VQ. They get their HP by using displacement vs. higher technology methods.. A lone exception is Acura they get pretty respectable numbers overall but tend to be a bit shy on torque. BMW can indeed make effective power plants but get hurt, because in the effort to appeal to all they make several low hp 3.0 liter engines. In this exercise the number of lower HP 3.0 liters hinders them. If they used smaller same output motors the story would be different.

This was not an effort to dicredit anyone, but just a topic for discussion. All of the high performers however were typically high complexity engines that used alot of technology. So if anyone doubts the validity of a turbo, supercharger or even a hybrid to add to power, pretty much dispelled that notion.

PlanoA4 - 9/1/2006 10:06:21 AM

+2 Boost

Will- BMW is just as eco-friendly as Toyota

PlanoA4 - 9/1/2006 10:06:30 AM

+2 Boost

Will- BMW is just as eco-friendly as Toyota

PlanoA4 - 9/1/2006 12:51:10 PM

+2 Boost

Will- Lexus and BMW score almost exactly the saem in the Automotive Environmental Index by JD Power. Actually both were well behind Audi, only Acura fared better of the big 3 Japanese Luxury Brands. Probably because the entire lineup are small engines.

matt635 - 9/1/2006 1:48:28 PM

+1 Boost

BMW Engine Lineup

These are the bhp/litre figures for BMW current engine line-up. With the new X5 coming out, and the the old 3 series coupe being phased out these figures will change soon.

It is a point that has been made previously, but it is a good one, BMW (and others) de-tune existing engines for specific reasons - below for instance 1.8 designated engines are actually 1995cc that can generate 150bhp, but are detuned to 129 bhp.

Displ. bhp bhp/litre

1995 d 122 61.15
1995 129 64.66
2993 d 204 68.16
2497 174 69.68
1995 143 71.68
1596 115 72.06
4398 320 72.76
5972 445 74.51
4799 360 75.02
1995 150 75.19
4799 367 76.47
4000 306 76.50
2993 d 231 77.18
2979 231 77.54
2171 170 78.30
1995 d 163 81.70
2497 218 87.30
2996 265 88.45
1997 177 88.63
2996 272 90.79
2993 d 272 90.88
4999 507 101.42 (M-Power)
2979 t 306 102.72 (335i powerplant)
3246 343 105.67 (M-Power)

d=diesel, t=turbo

so there you go.

PlanoA4 - 9/1/2006 2:20:36 PM

+2 Boost

matt635- Good information, but how is the buying public going to know this. If I looked the website I get lower figures than the competition, I might move on thinking I want more power. Not a good way to show to the propective buyer that this is the "ultimate driving machine"

matt635 - 9/1/2006 3:32:51 PM

+1 Boost

Well, I guess it relies on the general buying public looking at the bigger picture. You are mostly right in saying that bhp/litre is an effective way of judging how good an engine design is, but only like for like a 4litre V8 vs a 4litre V8, or a 2.0 Turbo vs a 2.0 litre Turbo.

Bhp/litre is only a small part a Car, bhp/tonne is as important.

But most of all I think a car just has to "feel" right - something that cannot be quantified. I get into a BM and straight away I feel at home. I get into my bosses Audi and I don't get that (BEFORE ANY SMART ASS GOES OFF ON ONE ABOUT AUDI INTERIORS THIS IS NOT A REFERENCE TO QUALITY) I would 9 times out of 10 by a BMW because I like the overall package... Anyone who judges cars by numbers alone doesn't deserve to a drivers license.

Having said that if I knew more about Merc, Audi and Jaguar engines I would probably set about doing all kinds of camparisons. (I suppose I should include Lexus in that). Acura.. Infiniti? we don't have them over here in England..

PlanoA4 - 9/1/2006 4:31:04 PM

+1 Boost

matt635- It is all about feel. Many times a better balanced engine feels better than one with brute power. Also power delivery and torque are big factors that are not addressed by calculations.

mstangpny07 - 9/1/2006 5:56:14 PM

0 Boost

Iamevilhomer:
"and yes the Saab 93 does and that sabaru is not a good car"
???
First of all, Subaru is spelled S-U-B-A-R-U, and Subaru or Fuji Heavy Industries had nothing at all to do with the Saab 9-3. It shares no body, no platform, no engine, and has no AWD.
The Saab 9-2x was created on a joint-venture with Fuji Heavy Industries.
Do you know anything?
Ferrari is not spelled "Farari".

Rupert - 9/1/2006 6:40:21 PM

+3 Boost

matt65, terrible thing is, those people we don't like (i hear they're called normal people) don't care about handling.
at all.
why else would people buy protons or kias or those sort of things? do you think marjorie and allan (for want of more boring names) care that their focus can handle well? no, they care that it can take them and the grand kids to brighton beach comfortably.
chairmen buy jags not because they are impressed by the aluminium, but because it's british and traditional and isn't too radical (ie bmws) for the golf club.
people buy citroens because they look cool. there really isn't another reason. (apart from the ridiculous discounts they give).
clever people who need transport wouldn't buy a citroen, they buy golfs and civics, because they are reliable and solid.
like you say, its the overall package that counts for the majority. if they get in a new focus/megane/leon etc, and they think, "oh, i like this" they will buy it.
that's one of the reasons why funky, small, cheeky cars or convertibles are doing quite well here (citroens, renaults, smarts, coupe-cabriolets), they're "fun" cars that have a sort of personality, and aren't dull, unlike (for example) rover, a reason why nobody bought them.
lots of makers have gone down the "different" route, like honda with the civic, seat with the latin-ness, citroen with all the dancing robots, audi with the sharp suited style, with varying results, but still staid, boring, reliable cars sell, because they are practical, reliable fuel efficient etc.
however, people are getting more clued up about cars, but still, i know someone who bought a new ssangyong rexton (against my reccomendation) instead of a used merc e class estate because the ssangyong was new. he didn't care that the ssangyong was korean, or generally crap, but the fact that it would have a nice 06 plate, good mpg and had a big chrome grin and wasn't a run-of-the-mill german car sold it to him. i despair.

and i too cannot comment on acura or infiniti, as i'm from england too. we should start complaining about the weather and polish immigrants.

mstangpny07 - 9/1/2006 8:00:10 PM

0 Boost

rupert:
Half-Agreed.