It Has The BRAINS, The MONEY And The TECH — WHY Can't LEXUS Build An M Beater?

It can be argued all day long, but I think there's sufficient evidence to support that if Lexus wanted to create a car to match the M3/M4, they could.

The only people NOT benchmarking themselves to BMW is Lexus. It's funny, because Lexus all but ignores it, and let's others do the advertising for them through constant comparisons, only making them more relevant.

Some years ago, an Australian div. BMW exec. made a brash claim that Audi wasn't even a competitor to BMW, but that Lexus was.

Serious question, are you retarded? Lexus is benchmarking BMW all day long. IS is nothing but a 3-Series wannabe and a pretty good on. RC is nothing but a 4-Series competitor. RC-F, M4 competitor. Clearly Lexus is benchmarking BMW. Lexus tried and has missed the target. The RC-F is overweight and won't have the same handling going by first impressions of it.

Benzes1 Lexus is now but they aren't trying to beat them. Lexus is doing their own thing. What reviewers aren't getting is that Lexus didn't develop the RCF to compete with lap times or straight line acceleration with the M4. They created the RCF based on the sole purpose of fun to drive. Less than ten years ago Lexus was considered reliable but boring, both to drive and look at; I think they have made huge steps to change that.

To me the answer is simple...BMW has a long consistent sustainable successful technical passionate culture and heritage of building great performance cars in a country with the fastest public road against the fiercest local racing/technical competitors in the world. "The ultimate driving machine" has been its motto for years and is engrained throughout the company. It's in BMW's DNA versus let's play catch up by Lexus/Toyota.

Simple, BMW has had better and longer marketing than Lexus.

Seriously, people will believe anything!

It's not baffling at all. Japan has a national maximum speed limit 100kph (60mph) and a relatively short history in motorsport.

Germany has an extremely deep motorsport tradition and people believe it is their god-given right to have unlimited speed sections of the autobahn where they can drive as fast as they f-igng want. Hallelujah!

It's a totally different mindset, down the core.

With all due respect it is most likely a factor of corporate culture.

Lexus typically sits backs and takes existing technology and refines it then implements. Not a bad idea if your target is static.

However as we can all see the Germans are hyper competitive, very quick to innovate and toss out the old technology in favor of the new. (this is both good and bad). The end result is the game changes every year and the target is always moving.

Look at Acura's NSX. When released it was an excellent competitor in the class, but 3 years into it and the were so outclassed it was irrelevant. They simply could not keep up with the rapid pace of the Germans and soon bottom line 911 models were faster and handled better.

Also look at Lexus first turbo....really? The Germans have used turbocharging and supercharging for decades. Why the lag?

IF Lexus can somehow break the culture and try be able to innovate and come to market at a faster pace then the Germans would really be challenged.

Until then they will always be a step behind.

Bingo!

Could not agree more, 009. Seeing the Germans, specifically, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche, make constant updates to existing and extremely successful models is simply amazing, and sometimes overwhelming (in a good way). But then you look at Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti, and it's just not the same business model at work. Just look across the model lines of the Germans vs. the Japanese and it's very evident.

Well the same can be said for AUDI's RS4 and MB's C63. I guess no one can be the M4.

very simple answer from my POV

High performance cars are the small portion of the market and that crowd always buys what they know is the best combo, performance and looks together and Germans always win.

Lexus may have a good and solid performance but when you look at those cars you can see the designer is fucked in the head. Why would I buy such an ugly car with high price? That's why their cheaper models are doing great sales numbers.

RX is a success because the direct competition Benz ML is very ugly and unfinished in the looks department, so women go for RX. 90% of RX drivers are women.

ES that now sits on Avalon is the most normal looking Lexus and #1 choice for retired people.

And the rest of the Lexus lineup is dead, since they don't shine in the high priced models department, their mid priced cars are dead in the market

LS, GS, LX, GX are all slow sellers and now Benz brought the new C-class to the market with no C250 yet and only C300 that starts from $40,000, Lexus had the chance last month to sell some IS's. Since the release IS has been a struggle but last month they cracked 4000 units mark, and that might change before end of the year if Benz comes to market with C250 model and $35,000 starting price.

The only way for Lexus to be successful is to do what they did 25 years ago, take financial losses by selling their cars very cheap and train the salesmen to lie to people by coming up stupid stories about German cars being worst thing ever.

It worked for a while but may not work anymore, people these days know way more and that's why Big American 3 failed and so did Lexus's high end models.

if a long-wheelbase LS460 starts from 78K, then by having a bigger motor to equal Benz's S550, the price would go to upper 80's, and S550 starts from 94K. Clearly people have made that calculation and that's why S-class sells 2000 units every month in USA and BMW, Lexus, Jaguar and Audi put together sell less.

Whether we like it or not, the market and monthly sales numbers never lie

....and you have the gall to question MY mental state.

It's called perception.

BMW has stuck to its bread and butter for years, the saloon and coupe, resulting in nearly laughable cars when they attempt to go outside of their comfort zone. Lest we forget the M1 and 8series (850csi, my all time favorite car).

Lexus has stuck to numb luxury which perfectly suits them, resulting in mostly negative reviews when they stray from this mantra, however every now and again they pull a rabbit out of the hat like the LFA, and completely throw themselves back into the spotlight. This is something BMW has never pulled off with grace, and it may have more to do with Lexus being such a dull brand in general.

Mercedes makes it no secret: Power and class. Yes, they offer handling too for a price, but again perception. Everybody knows Mercedes for the "gangstamobiles" they are. And frankly, people couldn't care less if they were the first to the ball, because they've been beaten a few times.

Audi.....I have no clue how they got to where they are. I can only assume that 4wd was the selling point, and they leveraged presence through mindnumbing marketing and streamlining processes. Like 001 said, taking old tech, refining it and selling it as new, only they've somehow mastered doing it for substantial profits...I would personally by an A8 just because it's a massive ride, and I like the feel. Power delivery blows though in the older NA engines.

"The company has the funding, it certainly has the talent and it undoubtedly has the technology. It built one of the best cars every to touch tarmac — the LFA — so why can't it just outgun the BMW M4?"

I think just about any brand could build an awesome $400k car. It's easy to build greatness when price isn't an issue. It's a lot harder to make something that approximates that same greatness while simultaneously being much less expensive. The Corvette and M4 are good examples of that being well executed, the RC-F and its cost cutting Frankencar underpinnings is an example of it not being done as well.

Why be "strawberry" to match "strawberry"? Why not be "chocolate"? Instead of beating M how about creating something compelling in its own way. The BMW M cars are a hoot to drive but give me a Cadillac CTSV over an M5. The CTSV is all rumbly in an American muscle car kind of way that the Germans don't understand.

Competing for sameness is idiocy.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

I never said it needs to be the SAME. Hell, if Lexus were to reinvent the battery and build a lighter/faster RC F and slay the M4 we'd be into it.

Obviously, that's a ridiculous situation but my point is it doesn't matter how it beats the M, but the constant theme is there with the RC F: it's too heavy and not as good of a handler as the M4.

Sounds like it's a perfect match to go up against the C63 and RS5, the problem is those models are going to be getting all-new variants — especially the C63 — REAL SOON.

It is this simple - German cars were made for old-money, narrow roads, and expensive gasoline Europe. Hence the turbo engines, superior handling and luxurious spare no expense interior appointments. Japanese luxury cars were made for I want it for cheap, throw-away culture, young Boomers and new money Gen-X Americans. Different target different car building dynamic.

But to be honest it wasn't in Lexus' spirit - not until recent at least. I'm the biggest Infiniti fan buti give credit where its due and if you all have been paying attention to what's going on, when Lexus came out they were very specific, they did the opposite of what Infiniti did. They benchmarked Mercedes because they are the standard in luxury and EQUALED THEM.In fact it made Mercedes better because they had to double-down if you all remember.But that took some time and after building their reputation and perfecting the luxury component of the equation, they will indeed perfect the performance factor. They have the $$$, give them time - BMW should watch their back.