Panel Tells Fed Incentives Are A Must To Sell EV Vehicles - What Is Keeping An Ev Out Of Your Driveway?

What keeps one from my driveway is a car with ~150 real world single charge range, and priced under $50,000. The Leaf is ugly, and everything other than Tesla hasn't the range. I know it's coming, but not here yet.

I am not interested in waiting to drive my car while it charges and the cost is too great.

Have you really looked at the total cost of ownership including cost to purchase, insure, charge, and maintain?

hey vdiv, your Volt is not an EV, so why are you getting all defensive with everyone's posts about EVs, you don't even own one. It's a discussion, perhaps you need to get off your high horse and relate to the rest of the world a bit better.

My Volt is not the point here, neither is my high horse. :p

It is a discussion so I am debunking false and misinformed arguments.

What keeps me from owning an EV?

(1) I've owned premium vehicles for the past couple of decades. Premium EVs are just too few a selection, and too expensive, even with the rebates. Think Tesla.

(2) I don't want to own 2 cars, one for short-range and one for long-range. That second car more than negates any save-the-planetism or alleged electric-vs-gas cost savings.

(3) I don't want to wait around for my EV to charge up before I can use it, or have to hunt down quick-charge stations in which "quick" means "go have lunch... it'll be charged by the time you're done."

(4) A heater and A/C suck battery power like crazy, and cut EV range considerably. I use both a fair bit.

(5) Nobody seems to know how long the batteries will actually last for me, or how much it'll cost me when it's time to replace them. I imagine (for lack of hard data) a bill of $8,000 or more would not be out of the question.

(6) Styling is a touchy point for me. I like elegant, classic lines, rather than the latest trendiness. No EV that I know of is both a thing of beauty for me, and practical enough to be my new ride.

Other than that, EVs are the most freakin' awesome thing ever, and they're perfect for me! (That was sarcasm, by the way ;-)

"They all laughed at Christopher Columbus..."

@vdiv -- The "laughing at Columbus" story is a myth. When Columbus proposed sailing west (instead of East) to get to India, it was because even at that time, understanding of a round world was common.

I don't think people are laughing at EVs, either. They just acknowledge the limitations of *today's* EVs, and don't see them as a viable replacement for most (but not all) internal-combustion drivers. Today's EVs have limited useful application, and they're expensive (hence huge government "subsidies", or using taxpayer's money to subsidize EV prices).

I believe it's likely we'll eventually all be driving EVs in a few decades, but I don't believe they'll be using today's limiting and expensive technology.

My Volt is not the point here, neither is my high horse. :p

It is a discussion so I am debunking false and misinformed arguments.

That was intended as a reply to CarCrazedinCali a thread up.

Hey, just a thought for readers. If a company can survive only through bailouts, is it truly a capitalist enterprise, or is it a sort of nationalized concern, in which the government takes taxpayers' money and pours it into a failing company? As you might guess, I'm not in favor of taking from citizens so that failing companies can continue to operate for a little longer, until they need more money from the working classes.

Similarly, if someone makes a product, and the true cost of that product is so high that consumers can't afford it, I don't believe it's a viable or feasible product.

Like a failing GM that can't survive without billions of taxpayers dollars, EVs similarly don't sell without the government taking taxpayers' dollars (you didn't think the government was using its own money, did you?) and then putting that tax money on the hood so someone will buy the EV.

That's right. All of us who pay taxes are getting yet deeper in debt, aty the hands of the federal government, so the government can borrow money they don't have, and offer a cash-back or tax-back "incentive" to someone so they'll buy an otherwise unfeasible, unviable vehicle.

If you have a problem with subsidies for EV's you'll shit a brick when you see the subsidies the government gives big oil, big farm, big defence. You would lose your mind.

What's keeping Americans from buying EVs is the FUD that is spread by media outlets and sites like this one.

Waiting to charge?! Is that what you do all night, or while at werk, waiting? This is when plugins charge.

Too expensive?! EVs are vastly cheaper to own than ICE motivated cars and their prices are falling while their capabilities keep improving.

The battery is going to die requiring an expensive replacement?! EVs come with rather substantial battery warranties. Based on historical data battery degradation is slower than expected and while it is a fact the EV remains usable with even 60% of the original capacity. The factors that contribute to battery degradation are known and are mitigated by a variety of methods

Need two cars, one for long trips?! EREVs and PHEVs show otherwise. Tesla, well Tesla...

Styling?! That's in the eye of the beholder and is true for all vehicles.

Looking for excuses not to drive plugins seems to be a favorite pass time. Eventually the light bulb will turn on and as GM of all makers said in the EV1 commercial almost two decades ago people will wonder how did we go so long without EVs. Many people do world-wide every day.

@vdiv – you seem to be offering EV “spin” in lieu of addressing my (and other’s) issues. For example:

--- When I write “…(3) I don't want to wait around for my EV to charge up before I can use it, or have to hunt down quick-charge stations in which "quick" means "go have lunch... it'll be charged by the time you're done."”, you offer up that we should change our needs, usage, and driving style so that that we can accommodate the EV’s inherent limitations, by charging overnight or while at work.

--- When I cite the high EV cost, your response is basically “don’t believe what you believe. Believe what *I* believe, that EVs are cheaper.” Not very convincing, especially considering the pile of cash the feds have to put on the hood to move EVs.

--- When I cite EV’s impracticality for long trips, which necessitates two cars, you then suggest EREV (Extended Range EVs, which are actually gasoline/electric hybrids that can run in pure electric mode for a while) and PHEVs (Plug-in Hybrid EVs, which are functionally identical). Um, I’m talking EVs, and you’re switching the conversation to Hybrids, thinking of them as just another EV.

--- When I cite unknown battery life and replacement cost, you don’t actually answer my question by reassuring me “don’t worry, you’ll get 6 years or 150,000 miles out of your batteries for sure, and they only cost $1500 to replace.” You only offer “positive vibes” marketing thoughts without addressing my battery life and cost concerns.

What you call “excuses not to drive plugins” are actually people’s legitimate concerns that you, and makers of EVs, have not yet been able to address. Discounting these concerns or trivializing them just serves to fuel the no-EV mindset.

I am saying just the opposite, you do not have to change your needs, usage, or driving style. Not by much, you could still stop by a gas station to take a leak, get a car wash, or put some air in the tires ;)

Spark EV 39-month lease for $139. Average price of a new car $32,000, price of a new Leaf $30,000. Off-lease used Volt, $15k. Price per mile for an EV: 4c, price per mile on a 25 mpg car, 10c. Oil change on a gas car $60/3 months, oil change on an EV: oh...

EREV/PHEV is an EV for the first 10/20/40/80 miles (based on model), then it becomes a hybrid. Dual fuel vehicles are the simplest way to drive electric and they are not a zero sum game.

I know a lot of people that drive EVs, I don't know of a single one that had to pay for a battery replacement. In case you do the one on the LEAF after the warranty expires is $5,500, hardly impossible for people that can afford to buy or drive a car. How much is a new engine or a transmission? A catalytic converter with O2 sensors? An exhaust system? What, those don't wear out or break?

Is driving an EV always a picnic? No, there are legitimate issues as you say, but not the ones regurgitated over and over to slam them. Once you drive an EV there really is no going back.

I'm amused people think it's appropriate to hand out $7,5000 bailouts to slightly-wealthier-than-average EV owners.

These are probably the same people who bailed out GM.

STOP THE FUCKING BAILOUTS.

EV owners can buy their own freaking car, I AM TIRED of subsidizing their fetish.

Right after we stop all of the oil industry subsidies, environmental cleanup costs and... oh yes, wars.

1 - I live in a rural area where the range of a true EV would not be practical

2 - My job has me out traveling 5 days per week. I would need recharge stations at Motels to charge up at night.

3 - I am over 6'2" and Large - I don't fit into those tiny EV's.

4 - Most true Ev's have Bizarre styling and little room

Having said that - My daily traveler is a Hybrid - a mid-size Fusion - and THAT combination works Okay - BUT - It still has reduced trunk space, it certainly is Slow as molasses, the braking is something to get accustomed to - and I doubt that ANYONE of the Agents here would choose such a vehicle as THEIR car.

A long extension cord. Live in the middle of a village with no driveway or garage.

I live in a condo with no designated parking either. Somehow I manage to charge my Volt every night. The extension cord is not as long as you think, only 25 feet :)

All these extension cords sound like a safety hazard to me.

One extension cord out of the way. If you have a garage it doesn't apply.

All mentioned above plus the fact that I hate that all EVs and Hybrids have a nerdy design. Even the hybrids based on regular gas powered sedans have to be "nerded" up. Why can't they look like regular cars. Tesla and the Ford Fusion Hybrid are the exception.

Ford Focus EV and CMAX Energi? VW eGolf? Smart ForTwo ED? MB B Class ED? Fiat 500e? Cadillac ELR? Porsche Panamera and Cayenne? Fisker Karma?

Are they all nerdy to you?

Of those you mention, the only good looking ones are so expensive that it throws out your cost of ownership argument. Ref fisker, Porsche. The rest are odd looking. Maybe the Golf is the one exception but VW and reliability don't go hand in hand.

For me the Volt is a good looking one so it doesn't. So you're just looking for excuses. Also may want to check the prices again relative to equivalently equipped gas versions, and consider the total cost of ownership.

OK, Rav4 EV? Accord PHEV? Soul EV? Spark EV? Fit EV?

EVs are not viable replacements to ICE vehicles. it is that simple.

The technology will be ready in 20 years.

Strangely how they have been viable for tenths of thousands of people and that number just keeps growing up.

MDarringer and vdiv are both telling *part* of the story.

MDarringer: "EVs are not viable replacements [for the vast majority of] ICE vehicles" (content in square brackets is my addendum)

vdiv: EVs are "...viable for tenths of thousands of people and that number just keeps growing up...". True! But tens of thousands of EVs compared to hundreds of millions of internal combustion vehicles certainly puts things into perspective. EVs are a miniscule drop in the bucket in terms of market share. Today's EVs ARE viable, just for a relatively small market segment.


vdiv, I'm truly very happy for you that you're enjoying your Volt! It's just that not all people are vdiv, so they're making decisions that suit them. By definition, relatively few people are "early adopters," such as yourself. Eventually, they'll get with the program. When that happens, when some form of EV is the norm, you'll be able to smugly and accurately proclaim "See! I told 'ja" while they stubbornly assert "but these cars are nothing like the EVs we were talking about way back when."

Cheers :-)

I should have added tenths of thousand per month, but be as it may. My use is not unique in any way and I do not really consider myself an early adopter. The people in California that started driving production EVs almost two decades ago were early adopters.

I have indeed been rather smug for the past 40 or so months. In fact I feel sorry for you guys as many of you are unaware of the benefits of driving electric and are under the spell of the mass media looking for controversy and spreading fear. There is nothing to be afraid of and there is everything to gain. If even Clarkson can finally see that with the i8, P1, and SLS AMG ED surely you can too. :)