EXCLUSIVE: Mercedes E320 bluetec diesel vs. Lexus GS450 hybrid-Advantage Mercedes?

But they compared the price of the E350 to the E320 whereas the GS 450h is compared to the GS300, not the 430. Poor comparison test obviously done by Mercedes

So if the GS 430 is 53,070 & the GS hybrid is 55,595, your only at a 2,525 loss or as they refer to it (Price premium over gas counterpart). Besides the fact that your getting 50+ extra horsepower, you get the nav system, park assist, vent. seats and a few other things standard. The premium after equipment adjustment is actually extremely close or possibly even a savings, considering the different wheels & the actual price of a nav system & the other items.

Lets not forget that were comparing a 201 hp @ 4,200 rpm engine to a 340 hp engine. I'll pay $100 a year for 139 extra horses, anyone else? And there are many other added benefits to owning a hybrid.

From Edmunds:

But the specs tell only half the story. The 450h delivers something a conventional engine could never offer, no matter how gargantuan it is. The hybrid powertrain is mated to a newly designed, electronically controlled continuously variable transmission that somehow doesn't produce the irritating drone that plagues earlier CVTs. Instead, the transmission — which offers three driving modes: Sport, Snow and Normal — feels like you're driving in a parallel universe where the torque band is as wide as desire itself.

mercedes is not factoring in the cost of maintenance and repair costs for dumb things like electrical systems.

also the hybrid is not meant to save gas, its to increase power while keeping high EPA mileage, and also saving the world.

i dont care how clean this "cleanest" diesel is, diesel still produces a hell of a lot more smog. say goodbye to the artic poles and say hello to higher water levels

oh i forgot to add, the hybrids have torque at 0 rpm

The lexus is a better value (arguably far better) when compared to the merc. Remember that when you equip the merc with the same equipment that comes with the GS hybrid, your far over the price of the GS. I personally love the style and look of the GS and will most likely end up with a GS350 in a year and 1/2. The merc's styling is nice, although somewhat dated, but i'm too young to drive that around and be mistaken for a 60+ yr. old man.

some more factors that could go against diesel is:

1. diesel gas isn't readily available at every gas station.
2. and when it is available, it usually costs more than regular gas.
3. when the price of regular gas goes down, there's typically a time lag(up to a month) before diesel prices go down.

I suppose the pros and cons of both eventually may make them equal almost.

Considering what jtqct said about costly Lexus maintenance over the 100,000 mile mark, perhaps true..... but realistically, I don't know too many luxury car buyers who drive their luxury vehicle over 100,000 miles. Most buyers have enough money to lease a new one every few years or buy a new one when milage is getting up there(and when the latest/greatest new models come out).

And as far as "production and disposal of the battery, electric motor and electrical components may cause more environmental damage than good." I'm not an environmental engineer, but we produce and dispose of regular acid batteries everyday. I don't think electrical batteries will add much if any to the existing situation.

Hybrids save the world?

LexusKindaGuy12, what planet are you from?

If you want to save the world, buy a bicycle, not a car.

Not all cars run on regular. The GS450h is no exception.

I'd rather wait for premium then behind a long line of 18 wheelers...ANYDAY. Actually, alot of people with "nice" cars that dont require premium still buy it even though it may not affect the performance at all. It a mental thing i guess?

matthew, i understand the world wont be saved because of this car, but its a step.

over the disel, which probably creates more emmissions even though it is the cleanest, it still is not as clean as the hybrid. if everyone in the world drove a hybrid car, i think the world would be fine

Mercedes is playing the pricing game - what happened? I thought being German justifies its $50k price with fake leather, oh sorry MB-Tex upholstery. Plus the comparison should have been with the GS 430 and not the 300/350. You see that is why it is call GS 450h placing it above the GS 430. Not a fair way to do a comparison, even though Mercedes has the cleanest diesel.

huu76-

Welcome to logical's irritating world of car-bashing. He's been doing it to Audi forever; I guess he's adding Lexus fans to his list of people who despise him.

I'd take either, personally. Mercedes for style and gas mileage, but Lexus for speed. Their interiors are about equal in quality, but I like the E-Class's design more.

I can not believe the lexus only gets 25/28 MPG, that sucks hybrid hype.

What the hell.... why comparing GS450h to the E320 Bluetec.
If that's the case then compare the E320 Bluetec with a hybrid camry.

then u'll better understand Value for money and greater fuel savings....which the MB is pointing at.

What a poor and biassed comparison.

JUGNU

Larry, there's a reason why they call it a "performance" hybrid. When you compare the horsepower & "endless torque band", you will notice how good it actually is. Read the Edmunds review & you will see that the guy reviewing it thought the same thing until after her drove it.

Interesting theory, justbrown.

A 'performance' Hybrid with poor handling?

Suddenly, a good 0-60 time makes it a 'performance' car?

You'd be going against the grain with that one...

EVO magazine out of England, which is a highly-repecteted, quality publication, thought the GS hybrid was just as uninteresting and 'soft' as the standard GS. The British aren't fooled by mere 0-60 times, and EVO concentrates on the handling side of things.

The GS may be fast, but it ain't no sports saloon.

Ahem. Respected.

If Lexus actually made a "GS300 Diesel", then there would be something worth comparing to the E320 CDI Bluetec.

As it stands, they don't, so it is perfectly "acceptable" to compare these two "fuel savers" against each other.

Just because the Lexus lost this value comparison, the Lexus fans are screaming "unfair". Give it a rest. Both cars do what they were made to do: use less fuel.

justbrown - 9/15/2006 8:18:03 PM-1 Boost
But they compared the price of the E350 to the E320 whereas the GS 450h is compared to the GS300, not the 430. Poor comparison test obviously done by Mercedes

-------------------

What do you mean the 450H is compared to the GS300? Obviously two vehicles from one company won't go head to head or even be compared to each other. It just wouldn't happen. I think the E550 is a competitor to the GS450H ( of course excluding the hybrid technology ).

Really? Using this same logic, we mind as well compare the E320 CDI Bluetec to the Toyota Prius. They are both "fuel savers" as you mention
=========================================

What SAME LOGIC? What logic have I used in my statement? I'll tell you. Both the E-Class and GS are in THE SAME CLASS. That's my logic. A Prius isn't in the same class as an E-Class or GS and therefore shouldn't be compared.

Sure, comparing the E320 CDI to the GS450h isn't exactly correct, but since these are the two FUEL EFFICICENT offerings from both MB and Lexus in the US market, then we can compare them - until Lexus offers a GS diesel or MB offers an E-Class hybrid.

Will,

Even if the GS450h was created to compete with V8-powered saloons, the fact that it uses hybrid technology sets it apart from the competition. Likewise, the E320 CDI's use of a diesel engine is also different from the many gasoline-powered saloons here in the US.

To me, this comparison is legitimate: and I am not saying this because the German car got the upper hand.

They might no compete performance wise, but they're both cars that attempt to minimize fuel consumption in the US. Therefore, the comparison is valid in that you can compare them.

However, I already said that it is a little looney to compare a hybrid to a diesel. The real comparison has to be GS450h vs E450h / GS320 CDI vs E320 CDI.

The performance of the E320 CDI isn't something to be ashamed about. If I were given an E320 CDI, I'd be perfectly happy with the way it drives. The thing I'd value the most is the good gas mileage as well as zippy acceleration.

The GS300 wouldn't really compare to the E320 CDI because it makes use of a conventional gasoline engine.

The reason Lexus did not utilize hybrid technology for the GS300 is because the market for a hybrid non performer is just not there (in this class of auto), the only way they could make business sense of it was to forgo the better economy of something around 300 and shoot for a larger engine/performance, hence the 450 and marketing brilliance. This is also why the comparison to the CDI makes sense, the performance is more comparable even with two very different sized engines. BUT again, its not about size of engine, its more about the comparison in technology and economy...I would personally go for a diesel before hybrid...

But isnt that exaclty why they are being compared? They are both claiming better economy by utilizing different technolgies from standard gas engines? I think most consumers if deciding on a new car and have decided to go for a fuel saver (better gas mileage), these two would be on their list.. its not going to be about performance, 0-60, etc, otherwise they would be looking at many other options...

What do you mean the 450H is compared to the GS300? Obviously two vehicles from one company won't go head to head or even be compared to each other. It just wouldn't happen. I think the E550 is a competitor to the GS450H ( of course excluding the hybrid technology ).

Agent 63, If you see the article, they are comparing the PRICE of the GS hybrid to the GS 300. People in the market for the GS hybrid are looking at either the 430 or the hybrid, meaning very few will buy a 300 after seriously looking at the hybrid. That means that the "price premium over gas counterpart" is only 2,525, not 11,750 as the article would have you believe. Using their same method, we can say that the price premium of the bluetec engine over the E550 is $7,950

Scratch that E550 part^^^but you get the idea. They needed to compare the price premium to the GS430, not 300 because thats the "TRUE" price premium

See Will, now that the Lexus has "lost" this little comparison (which BTW has nothing to do with performance, but VALUE), you become all defensive.

Who cares about the performance? Buyers here care more about fuel efficiency than performance. And both cars are pretty damn fast. Who cares if the E320 CDI is 1.5 seconds slower, it's insignificant. The E320 CDI is miles ahead of the GS450h when it comes to overall fuel economy. The GS450h will excel in the city, but in combined driving, my money is on the E320 CDI.

And us German car fans want more power??? If I want more power, I'll put a deposit down for an E550 or E63 AMG, not an E320 CDI. As it is, the E320 CDI is fast enough and fuel efficient. These two attributes will please most buyers. Enough said.

Mercedes should compare their S420 CDI diesel to the LS600h. ;)

BMW530i, the difference is 139 horses & a lot more standard features. It will be almost impossible to buy the bluetec at MSRP because most people are atleast a little tempted to add some options. If you option the BENZ with the same things that come standard on the lex hybrid, you will see the true value that comes out of the lexus, time & time again.

Every hybrid vehicle made has its compromises. If you want a whole lot of power & enough refinement to please the average lux buyer, the GS should do it. You want fuel economy, get a camry hybrid or better yet, the prius(which i personally hate). Lexus specifically made the GS hybrid as a performance model and the critics raved even though they always have a problem with it not being "sporty" enough. The IS 350 was a GREAT drive on the highway with enough horsepower and refinement for the level it competes with but my opinion is void because all of you obviously take your cars to the racetrack & test it against the latest BMW/Merc. I will most likely end up with the GS350 in a year but the 5 series is still in the running

Posted by Will: "Also, someone please answer my earlier question: When Lexus releases their LS600hl HYBRID V8, do you think that Mercedes should compare their S320 CDI V6 DIESEL???"

They will, just as they have done in this comparison. And all the merc fans will come out just to say YES, we won another comparison test!! regardless of if it was a fair or even reasonable test.

huu76,

If diesel customers don't care about performance, why all of a sudden do diesels make 0-60 runs at 6.8sec?
====================================================

Such an easy question, I don't even know why you can't think of the answer yourself.

More power is always better and I am sure most people would agree, even if they bought a car designed for fuel economy. The E320 CDI has a powerful engine in terms of torque. Torque aids acceleration and coupled to a 7-speed AT you can only expect the car to perform well. And the E320 CDI is no light weight either, which makes the performance even more impressive.

Why? Do you want modern diesels to be as slow as the ones we got in the 1970s and 1980s???

if you want fuel economy in an e class, you buy the e220cdi.
want a bit more performance? e280cdi. rapid performance? e320cdi.
the 320cdi is mercs "performance" diesel. they use it right across the range, from c to s class.
it is a very good engine, and is the engine of choice for all european road testers.
the e320cdi (non bluetec) is faster than the e350, at 6.6 seconds to 62. the 280cdi does it in 7.4. we get the 320cdi in the grand cherokee, commander and 300c, and is perferable to the petrols in both cases.
the gs will not increase its sales dramatically here, even with the hybrid.
we need diesel.

More power is always better and I am sure most people would agree, even if they bought a car designed for fuel economy.

---------------------------------------------------

BMW530, why is there a double standard. Thats the reason why the GS hybrid isnt getting phenomenal gas mileage. The went by your philosophy and it worked

we don't give a damn about hybrids
we pick diesels over them all the time.
the only reason we like the rx (the only one we do) is because the hybrid is pretty cool.

obviously, Will.
its that car that doesn't get anything like its published fuel economy, while looking supremely stupid.

and of course cameron diaz makes everything better.
the prius is now the best car in the world. :P

Will, besides the fact that you have way too much time on your hands, that does prove that the prius has something going for it. I personally hate the look of the prius but feel that its a step in the right direction away from unneccessary big Caddy's & Lincoln's. As if the Navigator and Escalade weren't big enough, they decided to make them bigger.

On a side note, did anyone see the new Navigator, absolutely atrocious. I really loved the past couple of Nav's tho, great design that just looked prestigious

who cares if an Actor or Talk show host drives a prius or lexus for that matter...they buy into the same hype just like the rest of us...but somehow they know more and make better choices than the rest of us mortals...thats right they do, they are on TV..rocket scientists the lot...

At first I was only kidding, but now I will simply put you to shame!

List of celebrities that drive a Toyota Prius:

Alexandra Paul
Alicia Silverstone
Dr. Andrew Weil
Arianna Huffington
Bill Maher
Billy Crystal
Billy Joel
Brad Pitt
Cameron Diaz
David Duchovny
David Hyde Pierce
Donna Mills
Donny Osmond
Ed Begley
Ellen DeGeneres
Ewan McGregor
Hart Bochner
Harrison Ford
Jack Black
Jack Nicholson
Larry David
Kevin Bacon
Kirk Douglas
Kurt Russell
Leonardo DiCaprio
Dr. Oliver Sacks
Patricia Arquette
Prince Charles
Rob Reiner
Robin Williams
Salma Hayek
Susan Sarandon
Tim Robbins
Ted Danson
Tom Hanks
Woody Harrelson
Will Ferrell

"I absolutely love our Prius. In addition to being obviously economical and environmentally friendly, they drive great and are just plain sexy. There’s no reason all Americans shouldn’t be driving hybrid cars."
Will Ferrell

“It gets 52 miles per gallon. In the city. Isn't that exciting?”
Cameron Diaz

"I own a Toyota Prius; it's a step in the right direction. It's a gasoline-electric midsize car that gets about 50 miles per gallon. We have the technology to make every car produced in America today just as clean, cheap and efficient."
Leonardo DiCaprio
==================================================

First off, a lot of celebrities are image-conscious. They think that by driving a Prius, they are doing something for the environment.

Next, those three quotes you posted which supposedly those celebrities said sounds like made-up markeing BS to me...

Who would want to own a japanese car over a classy german one? especailly one that has better (vault like) construction and impecable road manners.


And you call yourself "logical"

Aren't most MB buyers usually image conscious? I know a few. Also what Will said is true - even Lexus has admitted it. The GS450h is made to go head to head with the E550 and the 550i. When Edmunds.com did a comparison between the Lexus and the BMW it was the 550i and GS450h. Also didn't we see another comparison between MB, BMW, and Lexus. It was the Lexus GS450h, BMW 550i, and the MB E550 (not the E320CDI).

Plus why is MB playing the pricing game ;). Is there a problem with competing with Lexus on product basis. According to what I have learned on this website, price doesn't matter when it comes to MB/BMW. (Don't say that Lexus has no outside-US sales I know that fact).

Oh BTW, Lexus is really popular huh? This one is headed for 100+ post again.

In addition, the diesel will never have the performance of a hybrid.

Mercedes has been making diesels for decades and bringing them to the US long before it was hip to be hybrid or even Lexus existed as a company..and based on what do you believe a "clunky" diesel will never have the performance of a hybrid? I'm no engineer so would like to understand the mechanics of why this would be true. I mean, if Mercedes build a E500CDI how would that compare?

Have you ever driven a CDI diesel? They are lots of fun, great torque..very different from even a few years ago..and they last forever..Any idea how long these new hybrids will last (mechanically, not as a fad)?

SSP350,

In addition, the diesel will never have the performance of a hybrid.
============================

Another clueless person who has not kept up with the latest developments within the car business but "knows what he is talking about..."

In the 1970s and 1980s, people said that "diesels will never obtain the performance of gasoline engines ": look at diesels now. To me, the E320 CDI is pretty damn fast - fast enough. As technology progressses, diesels will eventually become even cleaner, more efficient and faster.

And comparing a Mercedes diesel to a VW diesel is rather stupid. The Mercedes E320 CDI has sound deadening materials in the engine compartment that prevent much of the noise escaping. FYI, the E320 CDI engine is pretty quiet by itself - a fact one can attribute directly to the common-rail system.

Also, rich people do care about fuel economy. The wealthy in Europe do for instance - and now we in America are beginning to become more fuel economy conscious.

BMW530i:

"Another clueless person who has not kept up with the latest developments within the car business but "knows what he is talking about..."

In the 1970s and 1980s, people said that "diesels will never obtain the performance of gasoline engines ": look at diesels now."

No, look at *turbocharged* diesels now.

N/A: Gas > diesel
Turbocharged/Supercharged: Gas > diesel

BMW530i,

Another clueless person, huh? Do you know why there are more diesel engine vehicles in Europe? Did you know gas prices in Europe are 3-4 times higher than what we pay here in the states? Go ahead look it up. So rich folks do care about fuel enonomy, huh? Is that why most rich American families drive an Escalade, Lincoln Navigator, and there are facts out there that prove that these 'gas guzzling' vehicles are still high in demand regardless of gas prices. And we're not talking about the riches in Europe here. We all know that all carmakers cater differently to different markets, and we are talking about cars in the states so leave Europe out of this. The facts are all still out there the diesel technology will never catch up to their gas counterparts. If diesel technology were so efficient, why aren't we seeing performance vehicles built out of this platform? The real truth about diesel is that they're fuel efficient vehicles and used in 16 wheeler trucks, and thats about the only vehicles Americans use diesel for.

markusck,

Never heard how a VW Jetta diesel sound like? Well, maybe you should try it one day. It really sounds like a big SUV with pistons shooting through the hood.

Look, these are just common facts. I'm not defending Lexus in any way, as I'm not a big Lexus fan. Diesel will only be vehicles for the true money saver, fuel efficient conscious, who really cares about how much money is being saved. Ask anyone who drives a diesel. Why do they drive one? Certainly not for the any dynamic driving experience, but it saves money on fuel. This will be my last post. Don't expect any response, because all the responses I know for sure will be heated debates anyway. My 2 cents.

ssp350, the audi r10.

olorin they are turbocharged to get more air in the engine. they need lots.

Olorin,

No, look at *turbocharged* diesels now.

N/A: Gas > diesel
Turbocharged/Supercharged: Gas > diesel
=============================================

If forced induction helps, then let it be. There's nothing wrong with a turbodiesel. Forced induction adds torque, which aids acceleration and also fuel economy. One can only benefit from this setup.

Modern N/A diesels also aren't as slow as the ones from the past. They obviously won't come close to a N/A gasoline engine in performance, but they're better than ever.

SSP350,

Another clueless person, huh? Do you know why there are more diesel engine vehicles in Europe? Did you know gas prices in Europe are 3-4 times higher than what we pay here in the states?
================================================

I do know. I regularly travel to Europe for business purposes and I am well aware of the higher fuel prices overthere. However, the efficiency of diesels isn't the only reason why Europeans are getting them.

They're fun-to-drive and Europeans are in love with the benefit of everyday real-world performance as well as fuel efficiency.



So rich folks do care about fuel enonomy, huh? Is that why most rich American families drive an Escalade, Lincoln Navigator, and there are facts out there that prove that these 'gas guzzling' vehicles are still high in demand regardless of gas prices.
=============================================

Yes, Escalades and Navigators are still in high demand, but the question is, HOW LONG? Even rich people, not all, but a considerable number will eventually question the wastefulness of such SUV's and begin to look for something more efficient in their next purchase. Perhaps.

I personally know quite a few wealthy folks who are wary of fuel prices. I've mentioned this before that one of my friends outside of NY state has an E320 CDI. He's quite wealthy, yet he views himself as a practical person and the E320 CDI was just the car he was looking for. Real-world performance coupled to impressive fuel economy.



The facts are all still out there the diesel technology will never catch up to their gas counterparts.
==============================================

Never? Boy, you sure are IGNORANT. Look at the tremendous strides made in diesel technology over the last decade? Yeah, so there have been advances in gasoline engine technology as well, but the point is that the bigger advances have been made in diesel technology IMO (making them quicker, less noisy and with less vibrations).


If diesel technology were so efficient, why aren't we seeing performance vehicles built out of this platform?
===================================================

Because most people still have to get used to the idea of a performance diesel. You think if one manufacturer offered a diesel sports car in America today, it would become a bestseller overnight? Hell no. Most Americans are still too damn ignorant and believe all this crap about diesels being noisy, slow etc.

And FYI, they've got tons of performance diesels in Europe. BMW 535d ring a bell? No? How about the Mercedes C30 CDI AMG, that's right, a diesel AMG. Want more? VW Golf GTI TDI, Alfa Romeo GT 2.2 JTDi. Heck, I guess you can even consider the BMW 330d, Audi A4 3.0 TDI and MB C320 CDI performance diesels.

How about that Audi Le Mans diesel - which has been winning races. I'd say the future of the diesel engine is pretty damn positive. I am hoping Audi's victories with this machine will open up our eyes

ssp350,
i might add that diesels have an effieciency of 30%, compared to petrol 10%. the apparent lack of horsepower is due to the short rev band.
the e320cdi is faster than the e350.
the audi a6 3.0 tdi has just a 31hp deficit over the 3.2 fsi, and reaches 62 mph just 0.2 seconds slower, with the tip auto in both.
the bmw 120d (and 320d) has MORE horsepower than the 120i (and 320i), and reaches 62 a whole second faster, auto/auto.

i might add that the 320cdi gets 8 mpg more, and is faster.
the a6 3.0 tdi gets 7.5 mpg more, and is only .2 seconds slower.
the 120d gets 16 mpg more, and is faster and more powerful.
what was that you were saying about diesels being bad?

bmw530i, i didn't know there was a diesel c class amg! that sounds cool, but we don't get it in the uk...
gti tdi is also conti europe only, but we get a gt tdi, which is pretty quick.

bmw530i, i didn't know there was a diesel c class amg! that sounds cool, but we don't get it in the uk...
===========================================

I only learned about it on Germancarzone.com, whose boards I read once in awhile. I think it did 0-60 in about 6.2 to 6.5 seconds depending on model (with the Sportcoupe being the quickest).

Will, saying that we don't care about diesels makes Americans in general look stupid, as if they already aren't. You're the epitome of American culture: Lexus, hybrid, big, cushy, Nelly Furtado, 7-11.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Hybrids are not the future. They're an American fad. Everyone needs to have a good image and look like they're saving the environment; they buy an RX400h or a Prius.

Diesels offer massive torque, massive fuel economy and not-so-massive prices. The Audi A8 4.0TDI has performance on-par with the 4.2, but can go 600 miles on a tank of gas. It's really amazing how something that's been around forever hasn't caught on in the US. It's a beautiful technology, it really is.

Bluetecs are not certified for CA and 4 other states, meaning their sales will be minimal. More importantly, this proves that diesel still has a way to go to match the exceptional qualities of a hybrid. The GS is faster, has about the same fuel efficiency, and runs much much cleaner than the bluetec. Most definitely worth the premium price. Not to mention a lot better looking then the staid, boring e class.

The AMG C30D has 200 hp. It's an AMG-modified version of the 2.7L CDI.
==========================================

231-horsepower.

2.7-l 5-cylinder engine bored out to 3-liters.

Does it really matter who is faster? Both the GS450h's and E320 Bluetec's 0-60 time are MORE THAN ADEQUATE for daily driving. Both cars have no problem merging on a highway etc.

The only place where your 0-60 times matter is at the stoplight if you're a boy racer or on the track (in some sections). I highly doubt these cars are bought by folks who care about trashing other cars.

And 1970TOYOTAMARC. E-Class boring? Did you read this: http://www.germancarzone.com/showthread.php?t=6223

"it has more space than the Lexus GS on the inside..."

^I agree with this guy.^ The GS is friggin CRAMPED on the inside. The transmission tunnel takes up a lot of valuable space.

BMW530i is my username because I have an E39 530i.

And I am not this carwimmer guy. I live in Albany, New York and not in Europe. The reason I posted his E280 CDI review was because I drove the same car in Europe about a month ago (rental). I read Germancarzone and the GM Forums and carwimmer posts on both forums. He usually has interesting pictures threads and reviews. Interesting person, for sure. So I'll continue to post stuff from him here as I see fit.

Also, I posted that E280 CDI drive here because I wanted to piss off 1970ToyotaMark. ;)

Thanks...

I'm mean?

Will, you're one of the BIGGEST PROVOKER'S here on Autospies. You PROVOKE people, then run and hide and pretend to be all innocent.

Besides, 1970ToyotaMark should watch his mouth when he calles the E-Class "borning". I mean, this coming from a Lexus fan??? *DEVIL*

Hypocrite? Please elaborate.

You mean...

Speak your "Toyota-Lexus BIASED" opinion.

well one thing they failed to compare is the one-time + yearly tax deductions(if applicable) to both the mercedes and lexus. mercedes may not quailfy as lexus would, decreasing the years exponitialy to something more realistic like 10-15 years. still not even close to the MB

C'mon Will, I've seen you trolling around here for ages. In a BMW thread, you're the first poster and what do you say? LEXUS. That's bound to get you an ass whooping from the BMW crowd because you are TROLLING.

huu, diesel cost more in the uk than petrol (about 2-5 pence more), but we buy it. continental europe it costs less.

will, you are seriously putting me off lexus, just like logical did with bmw. and you provoke big time. always lexus is the best or bmws suck or bmw fall apart or lexus is the best (you repeat yourself a lot). please will, talk about CARS, about styling, about engines, but don't drag in other cars for the sake of it.

And Will,

Stop talking smack about other car brands, and then stop wondering why people attack your beloved Lexus. It's called RETALIATION.

And I sure enjoyed retaliating against you today.

Some people never learn...

There's certainly NOTHING to learn from you.
===============================================

I feel the same way about you.

I'm from Vulcan. Emotions are taboo and illogical.

its not will, thats the point.
you obviously never watched star trek.....

yes i am cool :S

BMW530i once again resorting to fictitious children interests.
===================================

Star Trek was the show to watch in the late 1960s. I love Star Trek.

I bet when you were growing up, you watch all sorts of television shows: Care Bears, My Little Pony, Jem maybe even The Smerfs! Haha :p

huu there are 100 pence in a pound, how many would there be?
in the uk diesel is more money. in europe it is less money. diesels are very popular in the uk due to the lower CO2 emissions, upon which company car tax is based, so they pay less tax. fuel economy is a bonus. but price/fuel economy? im not sure how that works out, although i suppose it must be in diesels favour.

huu, diesels emit less CO2 than petrols. not less than hybrids though.

I just want to comment because I recently shopped these two vehicles among others. Firstly, my driving is mixed. Some hilly local driving. Some highway. I'm coming out of an A8 lease and would have bought an Audi diesel but they are not for sale yet.

I wanted to make a move to be more energy conservative in general but I cannot drive an econo-box. Those are for young single people who carry a knapsack and are lucky to have a date for an extra passenger, not for larger middle aged guys who have four children and actually have to purchase food for other people. (Hence the popularity of all the SUVs)

The Lexus is a tempting compromise. Nice car, good looking, most reliable, low emissions, good mpg, leather seats, good performance, etc. main problems are the lack of trunk space due to the batteries and the fact that all real world tests I had read (and I read quite a few) put the mpg much lower that the sticker. Somewhere in the twenties most of the time.

The Bluetech seemed the better way to go. Better trunk space. Real world mpg of at least 30. Rock solid, record breaking engine durability (I know electronically not as reliable as Lexus) Still qualifies as a nice, roomy, good looking luxury car. Peppy for a diesel. And a good solution, in combination with the new low sulfur requirement, to the diesel's particulate pollution. Between the particulate trap and the "blue" injection, the particulate is reduced 95%. Although it missed requirements for a few states, it missed just barely and Mercedes is working on the issue.

As far as fuel availability, It is true diesel is not everywhere but it is every where on the way to where I'm going. Sometimes just a bit closer to a highway. Besides, biodiesel is hopefully makeing a push further reducing oil dependence beyond the increased fuel efficiency.

All things considered, I went with the Bluetech and it should be here in a few weeks.

I ask Mercedes to do two things:
1) make the S-Class seat with its fully independent seat cushion adjustment a standard item in all models.
2) bring back the in-line 6-cylinder engine. In-line 6 engines are inherently well balanced as opposed to 90-degree V6 engines which are inherently out of balance. 90 degrees between cylinder banks is proper for V8 engines. If you insist on a V6 then make it a 60-degree unit and not a 90-degree unit.

I run the E320CDI on BIODIESEL. Cleaner than a Prius!!! Better than the GS450h.