EU Tester Reveals That VW Diesels Are Actually The Cleanest - All Automakers Are Cheating On Tests

Is this what's commonly referred to as "a holy sh*t moment"?

Oh crap! we all got caught now!

wow, talk about a clickbait headline.

Let's get one thing straight immediately: testing other brands hasn't found ANYONE else using cheat software intentionally designed to beat the test and fail the rest of the time. So far that's VAG and only VAG. Period.

Now, testing may show that the test methods don't correspond to real world driving results, but that's a problem with the testing methodology then, not a problem with cheating. If you tell the manufacturers "here's the standards, here's how we test" then that's what they're going to engineer. Whatever standards you give them, they'll engineer to those, whether it's fuel economy testing, crash testing, emissions testing, whatever. Changing the testing method afterwards doesn't make them cheaters, If the results are different using a different test that you think is more realistic, fine, then make THAT test the standard and let them engineer to that instead. But until you change the emissions test, the vehicles are operating exactly as they were told they had to, and are operating under the same parameters whether they're being tested or or being driven. With the exception of VAG, who intentionally have their vehicles running one way during testing and a completely different way when they're not.

And that's an enormous difference. VAG intentionally lied. They committed fraud. What they did was criminal. They sat on their high horse and rammed CLEAN TDI and Truth in Engineering down all of our throats while some exec sat in a dark office smirking like a Bond villain at how stupid we were, and how completely and easily they'd tricked us. We as consumers should be insulted at what they did, and you as journalists should be outraged that they used you as mouthpieces to repeat their lies and tell us how great they were. They treated all of us like idiots, and instead of calling them out on it you're trying to taint everyone else by painting them with the same brush as VAG, as if the two situations are even remotely similar. They aren't. And as journalists you should be ashamed for even trying.

JRobUSC, I believe you're missing the point. VW *AND* others passed emissions tests (the law) while failing miserably in re-world emissions (not the law). You say VW did this intentionally, and you're absolutely right! But do you for a moment believe that BMW, Mercedes, and Ford met emission requirements on the test-bench and failed even worse than VW in real-world use "accidentally?"

If you do, then basically you're saying it's okay to be a fraud, as long as you do it the right way.


NOTE: I don't believe this lessens VW's guilt. I do believe this clearly shows us VW is not alone in passing emission certification fraudulently while polluting way beyond legal limits. And at least according to this article's allegations, VW is the least severe of the offenders in that regard (but that's sort of like giving one of several murderers credit for killing fewer people).

Are you serious? The difference is simple: one company purposely designed an engine that would only run the way the rules required when it could detect it was being tested. They saved money by not installing urea scrubbers that every other manufacturer uses and then added software coding to force the engines to (briefly) run one way while being tested and another way the rest of the time. That is cheating. That is fraud. The other manufacturers built engines to pass the test, and they run the same way all the time. They incurred the expense of the urea systems. They didn't install software to recognize testing and only run that way for 20 minutes during tests, they run in "pass the requirements mode" ALL the time. You can't retroactively change tests and then declare the manufacturers at fault. If that test does not adequately represent real world driving, then that is the fault of the test, not the manufacturers. If you want the cars to pass a different test, then fine, that's the standard you have to set forth.

Here, I'll use an extreme example to illustrate what they did. Imagine if VAG said they invented a forcefield system that would make their cars the safest on the road, but unbeknownst to the public it only worked while being crash tested, the rest of the time the system turned off and the cars would crush like they were made out of popsicle sticks. And then even though they knew they had just designed popsicle stick cars they advertised the hell out of their crash test results and the media proclaimed them geniuses. Well that's what they did here with their CLEAN TDI/Truth in Engineering BS. On one side, you have a bunch of companies who put in good faith efforts to match or exceed the requirements of the tests they were presented with. They pass. They spent the money on urea systems, they played by the rules they were presented with, and the cars run the same way, all the time. On the other side you have one company that knowingly said "screw that, we'll just save all money those other guys spent on urea systems and just make our cars run 'special' for 20 minutes at a time. Oh, and we'll use that money to fleece the public with guerilla marketing and massive ad campaigns touting our CLEAN TDI and Truth in Engineering and how we were magically able to achieve something no one else could". They LIED. They lied to you, they lied to me, they manipulated the magazines and the journalists and laughed all the way to the bank as their competitors scratched their heads at how they were able to achieve what they said without spending the money on urea systems everyone else had to. Which it turns out, they actually weren't able to achieve.

I'm sorry, but if you don't see the difference between VAG and everyone else, you are either in denial or completely obtuse (or you work for VAG -- I haven't seen GermanNut on here in awhile...)

JRobUSC write “…The difference is simple: one company purposely designed an engine that would only run the way the rules required when it could detect it was being tested…”

The results are identical though. All the identified parties passed the emission tests one way or another, and they all fail miserably when being operated normally. I feel that's very significant. But in YOUR mind, that’s okay, so long as you don’t use a specific device to accomplish EXACTLY THE SAME RESULTS. Okay, I get that. I just see things differently. I see the real-world violations as the big issue, and I’d feel the same even if the story broke with VW not using a defeat device.


BIG Important Points You're Missing, Big Time:

(1) They ALL *intentionally* gamed the system.

(2) They ALL deliberately designed their engines to behave differently in the lab under test conditions so they could pass the test and be "legally" able to sell their vehicles. The only difference is the specific technology each company used to achieve exactly the same outcome.

(3) They ALL deliberately chose not to meet emissions limits when the vehicle is operated under real world conditions.


Steve Summary: See the three points above.

JRobUSC summary: Forget that babble. VW broke the law using a defeat device. The other guys didn't. That's what matters.

I hear your position, and I understand it! I just have a different perspective on this than you do.


(PS: My perspective is based on the possibly incorrect assumption that this article is truthful, complete, and accurate.)

Addendum to my post above:

Please note that my statements don't in any way diminish the severity of the crime(s) and ethical violations committed by VW/Audi Group (VAG). They're HUGELY serious! My statements also don't downplay the severity of the other guys' ethical violations, even though they might not have contravened any laws (I don't know if they did or not).

Assuming these allegations are accurate, remember that both BMW and Mercedes asserted they don't use "defeat devices" to pass emissions tests. This might be true, while also having their engines behave differently under conditions that allow them to pass emissions test in the lab, and generating much higher emissions under real world driving conditions. This is sort of like knowing how to pass a medical exam because you know which questions will be asked, but not doing a good job as a doctor in practice.

It'll be interesting how this turns out. It's a sad, sad state of affairs :-(

This is funny and messed up, LoL! This is going to get ugly, I want to see the faces of those "fan boys" claiming their brands due no wrong.

USNA1999, you case see a demo of what you said in action above, in JRobUSC's response to my post, and the folks who agree. Their message: The end result doesn't matter, as long as you follow the process to the letter, you're fine.

For those who embrace this line of thought, VW should NOT be forced to meet those emission requirements in the real world. All they need to do is pass the emission tests WITHOUT a "defeat device," like MB, BWW, and Ford allegedly do. If they can do this, it's totally fine if that results in real-world emissions that are even worse than their competition, so long as they follow the process.

I don't feel that way. That's why I see these other offenders, who pollute as badly or worse than VW, as being just as bad as VW. But that's just me.

So BMW MB and Jaguar and all European are cheating... lol.

Mazda’s engines emitted the most on average (0.49 grams per km) – 6.1 times the Euro limit. One of its vehicles was found to discharge 1.1 grams per km – 13.75 times the limit. Mazda was bettered by BMW (0.45 grams), Mercedes (0.42 grams), Volkswagen (0.41 grams) and Audi (0.36 grams).

I knew Mazda was the worst in all of this. Mazda said their new diesel system is so amazing and stuff but turns out... they were lying.

Do you see how the Japanese companies operate now?

And here are the links that talk more about Japan

S&P lowers Japan credit rating

"The credit rating agency lowered the long-term credit rating to A+ from AA- and said its outlook was stable, meaning further changes to the rating are unlikely in the near to medium term."

"Average income has declined to $36,000 from $47,000 between 2011 and 2014 (in Japan)"

http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/s-p-lowers-japan-credit-rating-1.2565513

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A Tokyo doctor who has moved to western Japan urges fellow doctors to promote radiation protection: A message from Dr. Mita to his colleagues in Kodaira, Tokyo

"In Tokyo, the first mission of the disaster response concerns how to deal with earthquakes.

In the event of a South Eastern Earthquake, which is highly expectable, it is reasonable to assume a scenario of meltdown in the Hamaoka nuclear power plant in Shizuoka prefecture, followed by radiation contamination in Tokyo."

"It is clear that Eastern Japan and Metropolitan Tokyo have been contaminated with radiation."

http://www.save-children-from-radiation.org/2014/07/16/a-tokyo-doctor-who-has-moved-to-western-japan-urges-fellow-doctors-to-promote-radiation-protection-a-message-from-dr-mita-to-his-colleagues-in-kodaira-city-t/

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Is Japan becoming extinct?

"After years of paying limited attention to academic and media warnings about the declining birthrate, aging population and complaints from the rest of the country about the overconcentration of people and resources in Tokyo, political and corporate leaders in Japan were jolted by the conclusions of a 2014 book by Hiroya Masuda, a former Iwate prefectural governor and head of a government committee on local revitalization.

“Local Extinctions,” Masuda’s detailed report of population changes, used the latest official figures from the government’s National Institution of Population and Social Security Research to show that 896 cities, towns and villages throughout Japan were facing extinction by 2040."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/05/16/national/social-issues/japan-becoming-extinct/#.VhLvUM-FOpp

"More Japanese school pupils commit suicide on September 1 each year than on any other date, according to figures collated by Japan's suicide prevention office over a period of more than 40 years.

The grim spike in the statistics is linked to the typical start date of the new school term after the summer holiday has ended.

"The long break from school enables you to stay at home, so it's heaven for those who are bullied," Nanae said. "When summer ends, you have to go back. And once you start worrying about getting bullied, committing suicide might be possible.""

"Nanae thinks the Japanese education system's focus on collective thinking is at the root cause of the problem."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/01/asia/japan-teen-suicides/

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"Gov’t Report: Fukushima released up to 181 Quadrillion Bq of cesium, Chernobyl was 105 Quadrillion — Radioactive material to flow from Japan “for years to come” — Fukushima radionuclides have now spread “throughout N. Pacific”"


http://enenews.com/govt-report-fukushima-already-released-181-quadrillion-bq-cesium-chernobyl-estimated-105-quadrillion-radioactive-material-continue-flowing-ocean-years-fukushima-radionuclides-spread-north-pac

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"Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities"

" "As a defeated nation we only teach the history forced on us by the victors," he says. "To be an independent nation again we must move away from the history imposed on us. We should take back our true history that we can be proud of."

In this "true" history of the 20th Century that Mr Tamogami talks of, Japan was not the aggressor, but the liberator. Japanese soldiers fought valiantly to expel the hated white imperialists who had subjugated Asian peoples for 200 years.

It is a proud history, where Japan, alone in Asia, was capable of taking on and defeating the European oppressors. It is also a version of history that has no room for the Japanese committing atrocities against fellow Asians.

Mr Tamogami believes that Japan did not invade the Korean Peninsula, but rather "invested in Korea and also in Taiwan and Manchuria"."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33754932

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"Fukushima2020? Disaster-stricken area hopes to host Tokyo Olympic events

The president of the Japanese Olympic Committee further attempted to assuage fears by saying the radiation level in Tokyo was “the same” as in other major global capitals such as London, New York and Paris.

But Mitsuhei Murata, a former Japanese ambassador to Switzerland, said it was “immoral” to invite people to the Olympic Games in Japan, saying “the health environment cannot be secured,” the UK Independent cited him as saying at the time.

He called for the bid to be rescinded. "

https://www.rt.com/news/214983-fukushima-host-olympic-radioactive/

"130 ‘radioactive’ Japanese cars banned from entering Russia

The Fukushima nuclear plant was hit by an earthquake and a tsunami in March 2011, which resulted in the world’s biggest nuclear disaster since Chernobyl.

Leakage of radiation-contaminated water has been the major threat to population and environment of Japan and neighboring states from the very beginning of the crisis at the facility, situated just 250 kilometers from Japan’s capital city, Tokyo.

However, the plant’s operator, TEPCO, did not acknowledge that contaminated water was escaping from the Fukushima plant into the ocean, and that it was unable to stop the leaks, until July 2013"

http://www.rt.com/news/japan-russia-fukushima-cars-201/

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"Food produced around the Fukushima nuclear disaster site could be making its way on to British shelves because of loopholes in safety rules, The Independent can reveal.

Products contaminated by radiation, including tea, noodles and chocolate bars, have already been exported from Japan under the cover of false labelling by fraudsters."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/food-from-fukushima-could-be-hitting-britains-shelves-through-legal-safety-loophole-10174298.html

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A total of 70 used cars imported from Japan and found to have increased levels of radiation are being stored in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan, and cannot be sent back, according to Silk Road Reporters citing local news outlets. Car retailers in Kyrgyzstan, who have been importing significant numbers of used cars from Japan for resale in the country, have been finding cars that exhibit levels of radiation above normal. Several batches of cars have been seized by the government during the last three years and have at times been sent back to Japan through an agreement with the Japanese government. However, irradiated cars keep turning up in Bishkek, the capital, and not all of them are being detected in a timely manner.

"These cars cannot be dispatched back. Neither China nor Japan will accept them. For this reason, we have to keep them here and deal with their further disposal," Tolo Isakov, director of the Disease Prevention Department in Bishkek, told the AKIpress news outlet, according to Silk Road Reporters.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/radioactive-cars-japan-keep-turning-central-asia

If Mazda is the worst in all of this, I believe Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Subaru and Mitsubishi are onto something as well, as the Japanese companies can not be trusted.

If you are trying to sway people to liking GM you're doing a terrible job. This site sucks because the moderators can't see a troll from 1 foot in front of their eyes. I am American. You are an idiot. I have owned 10 cadillacs and The asian products historically are better...
You must be a racist salesman for the us and while I agree things are getting better it still doesn't excuse the last 20 years...

I love how the Europeans love their smoking diesels.

Here we go... This will be interesting to watch.

Look at GM/FCA diesel trucks...they are a lot worse than any European/Asian diesel vehicles.

How many times have we seen on the streets a black cloud of smoke coming from a GM/Dodge diesel truck. American diesel trucks kill millions more thru pollutants from diesel than any other vehicles in the world combine.

GMCadillac...we vote with our dollars. If you don't like Japanese cars don't buy it...that simple!

For me I don't like GM death traps...I don't buy GM.

Write to your congressman about your rant. These are the same congressman that let the public drive GM death traps for decades...i'm sure they will care about your rant eventually! Write to your god Barrack Mohammed Husein Obama...he would love to hear from you...he also doesn't believe in competition/free market economy. I'm sure you can convince him to slap billions of dollars of penalties to any company that threatens his and your socialist/protectionist views.

B..bb.bbuutt GMCadillac, weren't you saying how Germans (and the proverbial hanger-on "and Americans") are kings? :-) Your effort to steer any conversation to Japan-bashing is awesome and never ending, keep it up. It keeps us all amused.

VW was deliberately cheating. But are the others? Not necessarily. Governments routinely enact standards laws and the bureaucrat agencies (EPA) develop methods to test for those standards. The manufacturers design to meet the test method, not the standard. If the vehicle can be repeatedly tested via the mandated method and pass, w/o VW type gimmicks, yet not meet the real world legal standard who is responsible? The bureaucrats who picked the wrong method to test certainly bear responsibility. If it has to meet real world usage the EPA test method should include measurements to that effect.

EPA writes test methods that are specific down to the brand and model of test equipment to be used. No exceptions. They have long ago established that manufacturers are to obey its test methods exactly. If I do and I pass, I'm good! VW's software interfered with the method. But the others, less certain.

Hmmm, looks like the Japs had it right. Why create pollution with a diesel and worry about hiding it when its easier not to create it to begin with with a hybrid.

GM ASSALACK NEEDS TO GO TO A HATE BLOG FOR PEOPLE WHO HATES JAPAN!!!