EPA Claims It Has Found More Cheat Software On Audi And Porsche 3.0 Liter Diesels

These were engines develop individually and not related to the Volkswagen issue. I believe this is the EPA trying to eliminate diesels not a scandal. This will be an over reach by the EPA that will come back to haunt them. We need a new administration desperately

And in this article, VW asserts no "cheat devices" were installed in their V6 diesels: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-says-installed-no-defeat-195751738.html?.tsrc=applewf

I realize VW might be lying. Unfortunately, the EPA and many readers are being diverted from The Big Picture: It doesn't matter how you get the vehicles to pass the lab emission tests, if they exceed legal emission levels in in real world use, then *THAT* is the real problem! If VW's V6 3.0 litre diesel engines are shown not to have any defeat software, but they still exceed legal emissions by 4x in real world use, is that okay because the law says they only need to pass the strictly defined lab emission test?

Once we realize that the "cheat device" -- though clearly a breach of law and ethics -- is just a red herring, and the *real* problem is designing vehicles that do not meet emission laws in real world use, then we can start addressing the real problem. If you want to reduce the environmental and human health impact due to toxic vehicle emissions, then you must reduce emissions under real use conditions! The law must state so (rather than a lab test). The law must monitor compliance, and have the ability to detect violations.

To restate this, the current laws were never designed to lower vehicle emissions while under real world use, though that was their hope. What and how they measured was useless for attaining that hopeful objective.


SIDE BAR: This story reminds me of the airline that wanted to increase customer satisfaction by reducing departure delays. They succeeded in dramatically reducing departure delays, but customers became even LESS happy! Huh? They measured an on-time departure was "doors-closed time" rather than "wheels-up time." This resulted in planes sitting at the gate for 30+ minutes with their doors closed, unwilling to take on additional passengers, just to get that "on time departure" rating. The "numbers" were good, but the outcome was entirely counter-productive. Sound familiar with respect to lab emission tests?

Steve, if one follows you logic about going after real world emission compliance there would be very few vehicles for sale, Even EV's that recharge overnight in locations where 80% base line power is generated by fossil fuel plants (most of the USA) would have to be banned as that process is actually dirtier than the offending VWs.

In education we don't measure for 100% knowledge absorption, but rather design "tests" that should measure the key points. VW is the kid who cheated on the final exam, an exam where the prof told the class what would be tested.

Vette71: I believe you might be drawing a valid parallel between school and business -- We measure their ability to pass a test and we grade them on that; We don't address their ability to replicate or apply that in the real world.

Sad, but true... in BOTH cases.

The current tests are purely hypothetical in nature - both the US EPA test and the EU test.

The EPA should continue the investigation of the VW 2.0L issue but should not start testing other cars until ALL vehicles can be retested using a new "real-world" protocol.

At this point, this investigation will become a "witch-hunt" that is solely directed at VW and has the risk of ruiing it in the US.

There is no valid testing procedure, that stands up scientifically at present. It is unfair to postulate "what if" and "its looks like" outside of the lab. Scientific testing is driven (and limited) by the "control" variables. Until new tests are developed, this is merely "hip-shooting". Stop it, EPA, stop it!

However - the regulations do not actually specify "real world" performance. They specify performance in a specific test. While we would like to think that cars will perform the same in the "real world" as they would in a lab test - the fact is - they do not - just as they cannot ever match the gas mileage they get on the epa test with the "real world" either.

However - the problem is you are comparing apples to oranges. The fact is - when performance improves on a test - it also improves in the real world - just not at the same level. So in fact - the diesels do emit far less than ones of just a few years ago due to the regulations. And cars DO get better gas mileage than just a few years ago. It depends on what you consider a few years too!

And - at least in the USA - the court has already ruled on the change in testing procedures when a number of manufacturers sued the EPA then they were going to change the method of testing. The manufacturers rightly said that in fact - changing the testing procedure was equivalent to changing the requirements because the testing was a PART of the process. The court ruled that the EPA would have to determine the equivalent emissions and gas mileage levels for the real world when they changed to a real world test - and make them equivalent to the old testing results. So if a lab tested car got 50mpg - but only 35mpg in the real world - the EPA would have to adjust the targets as well as the tests to be equivalent. Otherwise - the manufacturers were sending large amounts of money to go after a target that they said would be moved.

So - in effect - we should not be comparing "real world" results with those that meet lab tests.

All of this just smells of the "World Climate Change" initiative. You notice how all of the news broke our AFTER the pope visited the USA and made his case for "CLIMATE CHANGE"?

You are looney tunes.