Tesla Responds To The Suspension Issue In A STRONG Retort — WHO Do YOU Think Is In The RIGHT or WRONG?

Summary:
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TESLA alleges: We sometime do corrective work (repairs) out of warranty, for the sake of high customer satisfaction. When we do so, we have the customer sign a waiver to acknowledge (a) they had an out of warranty problem, and (b) Tesla addressed it. We do this so we don't end up in court because the customer had a problem.

THE OTHER GUY alleges: Tesla's "waiver" prevents the customer from reporting the issue to the NHTSA or other authorities, thereby hiding serious Tesla safety issues from the public eye.

STEVE says: Show me the exact document, and I'll determine for myself whether TESLA's story or THE OTHER GUY's story is more likely to be true.


I can see both side of the argument. Without knowing the exact wording of the "goodwill agreement" Tesla say they get their customers to sign, we are not in a position to judge Tesla's guilt with respect to the alleged muzzling of Tesla owners.

Even if a manufacturer addresses the problem, the customer is completely free to sue, sue, sue anyway. Secondly, Tesla's own records would document that they attempted to fix the issue and the customer's signature on the bill implies that at that moment the issue was corrected. Tesla sounds like their have verbiage that goes beyond typical contract boilerplate.

They seem to be overprotective of the flow of information about the defects in their products and that overprotectiveness--elsewhere--is called a cover up.

MDarringer wrote "Even if a manufacturer addresses the problem, the customer is completely free to sue, sue, sue anyway..."

Usually, that is the case in the U.S. of Litigious A. I can understand Tesla for allegedly saying "we'll fix the problem under mutually agreeable terms if you agree not to sue us." That makes sense to me. Who knows if that's what actually happened or not. Believe be, I'm the last to run to Tesla's defense. I'm just no fan of conspiracy theories and witch hunts.

@TheSteve, but your stance only makes sense if you presume that Tesla is being honest with the customer.

So what if I had gone to my Chevy dealer complaining about how the ignition key in my Cobalt turns off and they replaced the mechanism and made me--as a condition of receiving my car back I might add--sign an agreement not to sue them and then I'm maimed in a wreck because the replacement part was equally defective?

I'm not saying that Tesla is shadier than any other manufacturer, BUT their "agree not to sue us and we'll give you your car back" make it look shady and that they have something bigger to hide.

Tesla took an astoundingly unintelligent approach in my opinion.

NOT making customers sign an "I will not sue" contract would speak more to their honesty.

This an unabashedly anti-consumer stance Tesla has taken, but it fits with their desire to have price-fixed, cash-raping, Gestapo--I mean--company stores.

Musk is at heart Draconian and it's starting to bite him in the ass.

All a customer has to say is that they felt emotionally battered having to sign the contract and file a civil suit.

@MDarringer - Actually the whole not sue part is standard contract for goodwill. If there is a real recall issue, that would supercede all contracts. All it does is prevent Tesla from being abused when they give out goodwill.

Not sure how giving out goodwill is anti-consumer on any level. Since goodwill costs Tesla money for something they don't have to do.

What next, Tesla is anti-consumer for giving you a free car but not rolling a red carpet under your feet to prevent dirt getting on your shoes while you walk to it?

Be serious.

@weapon you know nothing about civil law

MDarringer wrote "@TheSteve, but your stance only makes sense if you presume that Tesla is being honest with the customer."

Nope. My position makes no assumptions. It states "show me the contract" and I'll determine if it's reasonable or shady. Without reviewing the details of the contract, we'll all guessing. Others here feel justified in assuming Tesla is either Good or Evil.

MDarringer wrote "So what if I had gone to my Chevy dealer complaining about how the ignition key in my Cobalt turns off and they replaced the mechanism and made me--as a condition of receiving my car back I might add--sign an agreement not to sue them and then I'm maimed in a wreck because the replacement part was equally defective?"

If the contract states "you will not sue us for damages pertaining to the original defect, or to have the original defect corrected (which GM has already done); This restriction does not apply to any damages or injury you might experience from the replacement part, or work done by GM as a result of making this fix", then I view that as reasonable.

As I said before, without seeing the contract, we're all just guessing as to what it says, and whether it is reasonable or not.

Often in these matters when they get serious the harmed party signs a release against suing in return for getting satisfaction (monetary or otherwise) from the other party.

The thing that sets Tesla apart from other automakers is that they have far better information than others and can process that information if need be and come up with a logical conclusion to respond.

This whole story originated on the internet and all the info is available on the internet. It all started about 3 years ago with an australian anti-Tesla troll called Keef. Keef is a conspiracy theorist who thinks Tesla is hiding things and that SpaceX rockets are fake. So about 3 years ago he invented a conspiracy theory that Tesla has issues with its suspension and has been peddling that conspiracy theory everywhere. To make his conspiracy theory seem real, he would go onto salvage/scrapyard websites, find Tesla cars with broken off wheels and make fake NHTSA complaints that they had their suspensions broken "on behalf of the owners". (he has never seen the cars in person or know anything about them). And he has been doing it for 3 years already.

So about a month ago, an owner runs into a suspension issue on his car with over 70,000 miles on it. You can see severe corrosion indicating wear and tear, he posts it on TMC. At this point Keef gets in contact with him and convinces him that this is common and Tesla is covering it up. The owner goes to Tesla based on what Keef told them and expects Tesla to fix his wear and tear issue for free. They refuse saying it is wear and tear but are willing to make a customer happy and offer 50% discount on repair via goodwill. Of course giving goodwill to 1 person is going to lead to another person asking for same treatment, so Tesla has them sign an NDA on the goodwill (not on the issue). The owner then makes a report to the NHTSA. Keef then convinces the owner this is a cover up and to get in touch with media to pitch his story. As Keef convinces him that it should be free repair and a recall. The owner couldn't resist the temptation and plays along.

Niedermeyer who has had a Tesla bias in the past takes the story and sensationalizes it.

Shortly after, NHTSA completes their review of the suspension, and rules there is no issues.

So who is right and who is wrong?

Tesla is right because they knew there was actually no suspension issue.

Niedermeyer is wrong because as a journalist, and he is publishing what he considers an exclusive, he has to do due diligence. Which is to make sure the sources are credible and get multiple sources to confirm information. And get input from both sides of the isle. Of course he probably made good money on the click bate, but as far as journalistic integrity he has failed at it. Because all the information I posted above is publicly available on the internet. Keef doesn't even hide the fact that those reports are not by owners, he is a true conspiracy theorist who thinks he is doing the world a favor by bringing things to light. Even in the NHTSA reports he admits he is doing it on behalf of the owners (who never asked him and who he never even talked to).

Your check from Tesla is in the mail. It's obvious that you are a company employee.

why was this problem not seen at the m.o.t bull joint are a main inspection failure they take a lot of hammer and i do not mean tesla inspection i mean government station inspection my mitsubishi l 300 1993 in the 7 year i have own it i have replace both bull joint i did the work my self the bull joint are bolt on the swinging arm they cost about 20$ EACH i wont to now why it cost 3000$
to replace one bull joint i can see from the video on youtube that the bull joint is fix not bolted so tesla at to buy a swinging arm and bull joint bad design the old bull joint i took off my van had grease nipples and lasted 6 teen years if you greases them every year they can last the lifetime of the car
it down to maintenance i think the bull joint is cheap just like all the cars today with there throw a way parts not possible to repair not environmental why buy a complete swinging arm when you can put a bolt on bull joint wast full and
time consuming it took me less then 30 minit to replace the bull joints on my vehicle

Your only response to @weapon is that he must be a company employee? Because he defends Tesla with facts and information? I don't find fault with their "tone" in the press release. Everything they've said is accurate. Which part is semantics and technicalities? Nothing they did seems out of the ordinary from what any other car manufacturer would have done in terms of the legal document, except that they actually fixed the car, which no other company would have done. I'm not a Tesla company employee, but I do own a Tesla and I can say from experience that they go above and beyond to repair any issues our car has had.

In my lifetime I have owned numerous cars from a variety of manufacturers, bought new and used. The few I bought new, a Chevy, a Saab and an Acura, each of these cars had issues and each time the only way the company went above and beyond was to GET OUT of fixing the problem.

1. GM had an issue with their paint in the 90's and after about a year all the paint started peeling off in large sheets like it was infected with a plague. I worked in a paint and body shop at the time and we had people come to us every week asking what could be done. GM just flat out denied the obvious issue existed and ignored hundreds of thousands of complaints across the country. They never fixed the problem.
2. Our Saab had an electrical problem and they denied that there was an issue. We took it in over and over again under warranty and each time they said they couldn't find the problem. We bought an extended warranty because of the problem. Finally after taking it in no less that 20+ times in 5 years, constantly nagging and hassling them, they did finally agree to fix the problem. Once they decided they would though, they kept our car for 3 weeks and we had to threaten legal action to get it actually completed.
3. Our Acura MDX also had electrical problems. In 6 years we replaced the battery 8 times because there was a constant drain on the battery. We asked them to test it over and over again, they swore they could not locate an issue despite numerous reports online of other having the same problem. If we ever turned the car off and left the key in the ignition, for any reason no matter how short a time, we had to jump start the car. It happened so frequently that I carried around a jump starter box in my car at all times fully charged. I became so adept at jumping my car that I could have competed in speed competitions (had there been any). When our warranty expired they magically discovered that there was a constant drain on the battery from our blue tooth feature and we could either pay some exorbitant fee to fix the problem (that had been there since day 1), or they were kind enough to offer to disable the blue tooth feature completely.

All of these issues I experienced personally and you can google them today to confirm that there are still people out there dealing with them.

We've only had a couple of issues with our 2 year old T

... We've only had a couple of issues with our 2 year old Tesla and not once has Tesla given me the slightest hesitation when fixing the problem. While other companies are being sued for not wanting to spend the money that it would take to do a recall on issues that were known AND documented AND have killed people, you're questioning the legitimacy of a company that has been proactive about recalls regarding issues that haven't even caused problems. So far Tesla has been everything anyone could hope for in a company which is why they have the highest rated customer approval rating and 92% of Tesla owners would buy from them again. In this world where most companies seem to operate under the principal of it's not illegal unless you get caught, I wish more companies were like Tesla in every single industry. Tesla is doing great things for America, great things for the environment, they are creating jobs and exporting a great product to the world. We should be waving our flags in their defense and throwing them a parade, but instead there's a barrage of ridiculous banter about whether this one guy, in this one instance, proves that despite everything else we've seen from Tesla, and the unusual circumstances of this case, that they just might, maybe, be more similar to every other car manufacturer on the planet. And when Tesla defends themselves in an honest report that isn't riddled with legal speak, we should pick their press release apart and try to infer what we all think about their "tone." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b44ZL3L1nfo)

The problem is that - while YOU have had a good experience with your Tesla - that does not mean that they do not have similar problems like those you had with your other cars - and your post proves that. And the customer relations reports have more to do with what people actually consider to be "problems" or minor issues - since with a completely new technology - some are more willing to overlook glitches. When REAL data came in - Consumer Reports took the car from the best ever produced ALL THE WAY DOWN to Not Recommended - so there must be real issues to do that - it cannot be just one instance- sorry.

The jury is still out on whether an EV is simply putting the emissions in the air at the Generation Plant instead of the Highway - More recent calculations put the CO2 emissions from the generation plant to be higher than an equivalent internal combustion engine.

And we still have yet to see Tesla actually mass produce an affordable car - and How they will handle those from their limited Service Network. Nor have we much data on how a USED car buyer - who buys a Tesla from an owner (Not from Tesla) will be treated as well. It is one thing not to complain about very LONG Distance tows to the nearest service center - because Tesla is paying. However - when the $2000.tow becomes the customers responsibility - will the cars then be worthwhile. The fact is - we still have very little to go in to praise Tesla - and I have in the past pointed out the Fallacy of their sales model in an open market with competition. Remember - Tesla still has not posted a single profit - and every time you turn around they are looking for additional financing - by issuing more stock - or taking deposits on cars they have not even finalized the design on. ANd if every company lost money as consistently as Tesla does - NO one would have jobs - they would all go out of business. You are overlooking that due to your good experience with ONE car.

@rnewman: this anti-Tesla "sentiment" is not unique on this board. In fact you can find it all over the Internet. I say "sentiment " because it's mostly opinion and distorted facts. Tesla.has stood these attacks and is obviously doing well. It's only a matter of time until this sentiment goes away. I'm sure many of these people will then embrace the new EV revolution and Tesla as its leading cause.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Tom!

Great point, BobM!

@Henry

We're not anti-Tesla. In fact, we love the fact it's a U.S.-based company that's been DISRUPTING the industry with astonishing products. However, we're not going to ignore this back and forth going on, questionable reliability and what are largely considered suspect things not previously seen in the auto space, such as a Goodwill Agreement.

You see, we have to present the story and let our users decide whether or not they do business with Tesla. We're here for our users not to be corporate megaphones like every other publication.

@Agent00R

So NHTSA says there is no issue with the suspensions and you are saying it is still questionable?

And since when are Good Will agreements being not seen in the autospace. They are pretty common for obvious reasons.

http://www.digitaldealer.com/the-consequences-of-making-goodwill-repairs-2/

@TomM - Most of the old coal powerpants have shut down in the west as they have been converted to natural gas powerplants which have higher efficiency. Coal usage has taken a huge slide downwards.

Here is a link of a breakdown of how an EV compares in each geography of the US using current electrical mix:
http://www.valuewalk.com/2016/06/is-driving-a-tesla-better-for-the-environment-it-depends-infographic/

And you are wrong about servicing too, Tesla has a certified independent repair shop program.

https://www.teslamotors.com/support/find-bodyshop

I am not talking about AUTO-BODY crash repairs - I am talking about service for the Heater that stopped working - or the Window that won't open - or the Anti-lock brakes that set a code, or the power seat that only goes forward but won't go back. It still seems that the only place to go to where they can access and reset service codes in the cars are at TESLA owned service departments. The fact is - there are VERY FEW such places to begin with - and when you supposedly add a high volume vehicle - that will mean long waits for getting the service light turned off because your right side turn signal bulb blew. ANd since Tesla is indeed deciding to check repairs FIRST to see if they meet their standards - and they have DECLINED resetting the computer if they don't use their own parts already - we have a real problem when AUTO body shops working on an 8 year old Tesla are denied the right to use salvage parts. Since they already can only get OEM parts from ONE place (Tesla itself) - there is NO competitive market for the parts either - where dealers for other manufacturers regularly compete with each other and give wholesale discounts to independent service centers. ANd without the computer access - you actually cannot even do your own repairs without having to still return to TESLA to reset the computer (ANd some things actually stop the Car from running at all). A power brake repair that cost a couple hundred dollars - might end up several times that price IF you can only use FULL MSRP PRICE OEM parts - and have to use a long distance TOW to reset the computer at the company owned shop.

Sorry - but this model may work when there is no competition in the market place and Tesla is paying the bills - but when the customer becomes responsible for repairs to an older out of warranty car - will ANYONE want a car where the cost of repairs remains at the HIGHEST level for the life of the car. Will and dealer want to take on in trade that has a problem - knowing that HIS service department cannot reset the computer. WHy would I offer a warranty under those circumstances - and extended warranties - will be MUCH more expensive as well - due to cost of repairs when they do break down. ALL that will end up dooming resale value of out of warranty Tesla cars.

Even if the cars are fabulous - and to me they are just another IT thing that will be replaced when all manufacturers are producing competitive cars. There is also a problem with the supply of Lithium - used to make the Batteries as well. THere will come a point when the supply of Lithium will not be enough to supply all manufacturers( IT is already estimated that the product from the Gigaplant will need ALL of the current supply - and Phone and Computer manufacturers will be competing for that supply as well as other manufacturers). IF the price of Lithium soars - and new Battery technology does not get developed - the price of the Cars and the price of replacement battery sets will go UP and UP an

@TomM - There is no reason why authorized independent shops can't do fixes on cars along side Tesla owned service centers. They can order all parts from Tesla at wholesale prices. Tesla also offers refurbished/re-manufactured parts for replacement. And as Tesla grows there will be others making aftermarket parts. It is no different than a dealership, they don't compete with each other because they can only buy certified parts. So the competition is only for their markup.

Lithium makes up an insignificant part of a lithium ion battery. Price of lithium can go up 10X and it wouldn't matter too much.

@Agent00R wrote "we are not anti-Tesla": maybe not your intention but the retorts from the usual suspects say otherwise.

@TomM wrote "More recent calculations put the CO2 emissions from the generation plant to be higher than an equivalent internal combustion engine." Believe what you want but anyone with some technical understanding knows that this statement is misleading at best. Thermal efficiency of coal-fired power plants is still better than that of modern ICE engines (global average of over 30% versus mid-20%, numbers for US power plants are even better). This translates to CO2 emissions although the formulas are more complicated. Exhaustive studies by government agencies and scientific community have proven the fact that EV is far more efficient than ICE.

That actually assumes use of current technology in the generating plant - something that does not happen most of the time in most Western Countries. Coal fired generating plants tend to be the OLDEST still operating - and just because they CAN do better with more current technology that the studies used does not mean they will. Still - the actual difference is what matters - and it appears that there is not much of a difference. And that is NOT what I call GREAT THINGS for the Environment - it is marginal at best.

As far as Tesla's single ownership sales model/service - it discourages independent repair facilities - since they do not have access to the computers in the cars - and since the government has not required it(Even OBDII is for emissions) - every time you see a check/service light in the car- you have NO CHOICE but to return to the Tesla company. (No matter how far away). That means that other dealers are LESS likely or simply NOT likely to take a Tesla in trade since they cannot service the car themselves(who are a monopoly and set prices based on a single owner). Tesla will not be able to absorb ALL of the turned in TEsla cars around the country without taking a big hit - and that means eventually Trade in Values will diminish except at Tesla dealerships. But - by then - Tesla will have real competition - that WILL have far more numerous service options (Franchised dealers - who compete with each other). At the same time - older cars benefit from less expensive service that people who cannot afford new cars need - through independent service professionals. At some point - unless they make the material available to the aftermarket - Tesla cars will make good Boat anchors when they get older.

@TomM - Most of the old coal powerpants have shut down in the west as they have been converted to natural gas powerplants which have higher efficiency. Coal usage has taken a huge slide downwards.

Here is a link of a breakdown of how an EV compares in each geography of the US using current electrical mix:
http://www.valuewalk.com/2016/06/is-driving-a-tesla-better-for-the-environment-it-depends-infographic/

And you are wrong about servicing too, Tesla has a certified independent repair shop program.

https://www.teslamotors.com/support/find-bodyshop

If you believe that, put your money where your mouth is and short Tesla stock (TSLA). It's probably a terrible idea, but go for it if you are delusional enough to think Tesla will be bankrupt in 7 months.