Audi chases down BMW to get to tier one?

lets guess and see how many post this will have = 156

Logical is not here annmore. Thanks 001 for the ban. This website is much better :)

Everyone give 001 props

Somtimes the things I post are controversial, but they are still true, no matter how bad Americans don't want to hear it. Thanks for having an open mind, 001.

Oh my god, logical isn't here!

Everyone, give a standing ovation!

A toast, to logical's departure!

Audi already is a Tier 1 company, by the way. And this thing is just a knock-out beauty.

Only 13 comments left.

This wasn't written by 001, it's from cnn.com.

And it looks more exotic and handles better than both the M6 and SL AMG cars. They're not true supercars, they're GTs- but this really is a supercar.

I will agree with that in part but the performance numbers are the real story. Plus with the V10 on the horizon the gap will widen. I too am interested in what they will do to compete or if they will leave it alone.

153 comments left

As we all know by now, the R8 does look amazing and exotic. I am sure the performance will be there to back up the looks. BMW and MB don't have anything that directly competes with the R8. Its closest competitors are the Porsche 911 S/4S and the Aston Martin V8 Vantage. The R8 will outperform those two.

Chewy,

You always seem up to date on Audi. I've heard price points (MSRP - what happens in the market is another story) for the R8 anywhere from $100k to $130k, all for the V8. Do you have more specific information?

At $100k, I agree with your comment even though a C2S would be loaded to the hilt - PCCB, PASM, etc. However, at $130, that would place the R8 in the Turbo / GT3 territory, a very different challenge.

The R8 has an undeniably exotic look that will attract a number of buyers. However, despite being an Audi fan / owner, I would gulp at paying a premium over the "Porsche equivalent", whatever that might be.

That may just be my opinion but Audi still has to build its performance image. They are taking the right steps with the TDI V10, the R8, RS and the likes but do you think the market is there intellectually?

It still amazes me that a brand as innovative, luxurious, and with as much heritage as Audi can be classified as "Tier 2" in the US, despite being so highly regarded internationally.

If Americans paid more attention to the product itself instead of gimicks and advertising (Lexus) they'd see Audi is in many ways better than BMW or MB. Lexus doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with these three--they cultivated their image through strategic product placement and a ton of advertising which gave the illusion that they were Tier 1.

As far as I'm concerned,
Tier 1 = Audi, BMW, MB, Jag
Tier 2 = Lexus, Cadillac, Infiniti
Tier 3 = Acura, Lincoln, Volvo

STUPID AMERICANS.

Not sure about Jaguar. All they have for sale is very old and outdated. Only the name remains for right now. Not sure what the future will bring for them.

Jaguar is barely clinging on for dear life. The X-Type is completly outdated, as is the S-Type. They are pulling in marginal sales from the XJ, and not much for the XK. They need to lower prices, bold thier styling, and get the new S-Type out!

I think all the marques listed offer something unique to their customers that make their cars special to them. Having tiers or luxury classes is ridiculous. All customers should be treated right and with respect and all auto makers should strive for perfection. Alas in the real world people cling to their security straw believeing that if they drive such and such marque they have made it in life and alas bottom line corporate profits are the only thing it matters to greedy and instant gratification investers.

Lexus is actually in Tier 1.
Jaguar is in Tier 1.

I drove the XJ8 yesterday, along with the 530xi, for my wife... I can't express to you how much better the Jaguar is, in every area. You could say they're not in the same class, but they're similarly priced, and the Jaguar is just amazing... much better than I thought.

Tier 1 = Audi, BMW, MB
Tier 2 = Lexus, Infiniti
Tier 3 = Acura, Volvo, Jag
Tier 4 = Lincoln

Lexus and Infiniti make great cars, very reliable and technologically advanced, but they still don't drive like a BMW, MB or an Audi. They're getting closer, but they're still not there. I can hop in my FX and know I'm not driving an X5.

Chip-

Will i guess i am blind (Jag is not tear 1) i would put lexus there before Jag

What is tier one anyway? Audi rocks bmw is good somehow people like the Lexus and all is well

Lexus is tier 1. Audi is tier 1 as well. If you say that Lexus doesn't sell well outside of US, well Audi doesn't sell well in the US either - so leave that comment out of it.

Also what defines Tier 1. Is based on sales, drive, or what. Agent 004 said that Lexus and Infiniti are good cars but don't drive as well. Is that the definition or is sales and image the only consideration here.

If I (seriously) had to put the brands in order based on what I think as the brand ratings based on their image of luxury, etc.

1. MB
2. BMW
3. Lexus for NA, Audi for Europe
4. Jaguar (Still has image)
5. Volvo
6. Infiniti and Acura.

Many people in the world think that MB is the top company in the luxury department - BMW is a close second (but BMW doesn't market itself as a top luxury maker - more of the Ultimate Driving Machine promos here)

Audi is tier one as to what many people would think and so is Lexus - but both these companies have some way to go to take the spot away from MB.

Actually it would be like this Lexus would (if it happens) take MB's spot and Audi would take BMW's spot.

I based mine on ownership attributes. Things I like in a car that I want it to excel at. Sportiness, engine choices, luxury, ride, options, technology...(in no specific order).

If it was JUST luxury(including quality of materials):
1. Mercedes
2. Tie: Audi/Lexus
3. BMW
4. Infiniti
5. Land Rover
6. No other brand really matters to me

BMW would have scored higher in that list 5-7 years ago, before their interiors went all cheap and plasticky.

Chip-

I concur!

AUDIMAN4, don't generalize. It makes you look silly.

The R8 will be priced around a base SL500 but it will not have as much luxury as the MB has. In performance I think the SL is pretty darn close as well in straight line. Handling no doubt the race inspired R8.

Audi's trying to create a car that's not that expensive but still holds a supercar look to it. In other words, people who can't afford a Gallardo? *hehehe, trying to start up controversy j/k*.

For more picky customers BMW started to offer BMW Individual in USA as well. First 7-series, next M-models, than all the others ... For more exclusivity.

Also X6 off-roadish coupe (Sport Activity Coupe) is coming within 2 years - being priced above X5. Also coming in M version.

Z8 successor (either in hardtop roadster, or soft top roadster + coupe vesrsions) is also on the way ... Coming sometimes in 2010.

BMW Individual is nothing new. Audi offers $11,000 Audi Exclusive packages on the A8, and Mercedes-Benz has its Designo Series. There's nothing innovative about it.

The Audi R8 is NOT a GT at all. It only weighs 3,200 pounds. That is NOTHING compared to the SL, M6 or CLK63.

Secondly, the M6, SL and CLK63 all are front-engined and rear-wheel drive. This automatically gives worst handling when compared to mid-engined.

The R8 will show up in V10 form and then all the questions about the R8 outperforming the M6 or SL55 will be done with.

Audi is already working on a 5.2 liter turbocharged V10 to place in the next RS6 and that engine will more than likely find its way in the R8.

When the V10 does get placed in the R8, there will be absolutely no straight-line or track comparisons.

The R8 will get to 60 in under 4 seconds with V10 and will lap the ring in the 7:50 or below mark.

If Audi is Tier II and sells more cars worldwide annually than Lexus, what would that make Lexus?

Wilco, GermanNut-

Audi is Tier 1.

So is Lexus.

Yes, Audi is a 2nd Tier luxury car company, I am not the only one who thinks so. Did you know VW Group has a goal to cut back spending $5 billion dollars by 2008, and VW is laying off 40,000+ worker. Yes keeping on wasting money on Audi. In fact america prefers Infinti, Acura, cadillac, jaguar, volvo over audi.

america prefers the f-150 over anything, what does that tell you?

Jaguar is just as prestigious as BMW or Mercedes, as well as Audi, and shouldn't be discounted in their company.

Larry, like I said-- it's not debatable. Audi is internationally recognized as a Tier 1 luxury brand.

Audi's profit margins are different from VW's; while VW loses money, Audi is growing at a rapid rate. As well as Audi's subsidiaries, Lamborghini and SEAT.

Will - exactly. We drive what we need to work. Try pulling that trailer with your luxury car.

Everyone needs a gas guzzling (not gas guzzler tax paying) F-150 to drive their kids to school and to carry several bagsof groceries. BTW, Europeans tow plenty of stuff with their powerful sedans.

actually yeah, most people tow with their e classes. why else is there a towbar option?

Very smart move by Audi.

The R8 is clearly an exotic. It ought to compete with cars that are perceived as such. No matter how much power a Mercedes SL or an M6 have, they are just great and teutonic GT cars, wonderful in their own right but not exotics.

Great move Audi. Also, cuts down on the inevitable comparisons with these cars.

BMW and Mercedes are trying to copy a 2nd tier car company, Larry? That is just pathetic.

but the thing is, lexus is barely an international brand. nothing against their cars, but audi records massivley higher sales simply because they are in more countries.
if lexus is tier 1, then audi is tier 1.
i think that now lexus is a tier 1 company, as is audi. i really can't understand why audi wouldn't be.

Because, in some BMW fans' brand-hugging worlds, Audi isn't a key competitor, even if it's their second fiercest competitor, just behind Mercedes-Benz in worldwide sales (which is behind BMW in itself).

Audi sells more cars world-wide annually then Porsche. It sells more cars annually world-wide than Lexus.

BMW and Mercedes try to copy some of its cars and its highest msrp for a car is higher than BMW's.

Audi is as tier I as they come.

As I get older the more & more I feel Audi's teir 1...but then I think to myself, there's a certain VW feel to Audi which in some peoples opinion makes it teir 2.

Lately Audi has been more teir 1 than Benz, but they are still lacking that I gotta have it factor.

I love & gotta have a BMW for their risk-taking, explosvie personality, incredible driving machines, & idea's & innovations that make your jaw drop.

I love & gotta have a MB for staying more classy than it's competitors, with timeless automobile design (CLS, SL, & E-Class), & not to mention torque happy engines that make you just want to step on it.

Now Audi on the other-hand makes a great interior but IMO, it's no better or worse than the latest offering's from Mercedes (S-Class, SL, CL, CLS). So it leaves me thinking...Mabye I would love an Audi for it's AWD capability during the winter, even though I dislike AWD.

Now I can't think of any reason I'd like to own a Lexus, mabye to brag about how long it will last & my exceptional dealership service...Exciting huh boy's!?

BMW=explosive controversy, "magic feel" handling. That's it
=====================================
[PERFORMANCE & BALANCE, SAFETY]

Mercedes=timelessness, the badge, design (excluding new S, CL). That's it
====================================
[SAFETY, INNOVATION, WORLD-CLASS DIESEL ENGINES]

Audi=quattro, performance, interior, German underdog. That's it.
====================================
[WORLD-CLASS DIESEL ENGINES, DESIGN]

Lexus=high quality/luxury, interior, reliability, price/value.

"quattro, performance, interior,"

Which is pretty much everything you'd ever want in a luxury car.

Which leaves me wondering how you think Lexus is better.

Audi also has world-beating technology. Lexus hasn't developed anything since they were first introduced- hybrid was developed by Honda, and the self-park system was introduced by Toyota, not Lexus. The eight-speed transmission was merely an improvement on an existing technology; I hold Mercedes's seven-speed transmission in the same light. Where DSG was a true step forward for high-performance transmissions- it's so good that the "magic feel" people are desparately trying to copy it.

S4 - How did Honda beat Toyota in Hybrid technology, when Toyota currently has the best setup and beat Honda to the market with their hybrid by about a year or less?

Sorry, but the Audi R8 is ugly IMO. I'm sure it drives great and is competitive but the styling is horrendous. Audi has some nice cars in their lineup, but the R8 and new TT aren't one of them.

Are you weird or something? Next are your going to say that the BMW 5 and 6 series are art pieces? BTW, the V8 R8 should start at under 100,000 with plenty of luxury features standard.

Objection.

I think it's gorgeous, and so do basically everyone else.

I have a gut feeling that it will look about 50X better in person, like driving past you on the road.

WTF!? I don't like the R8 design. Just because YOU like it doesn't mean I have to like it.

And Jessica Alba is not hot.

And Will, price/value, for Lexus???

Excuse me for telling the truth, but the LS460 has gone up about $30K since the original LS400 came out. They're now neck-and-neck with their German competitors, and in some cases, more expensive.

The IS is more expensive than the A4.

The GX is more expensive than the new X5 and Q7, with 10 more horsepower than the X5 and ten less than the Q7.

The LS460L is more expensive than the VW Phaeton and Jaguar XJ8L, which are both fabulous cars (although the XJ8 is much, much better to drive, than both the Lexus and Phaeton).

The GS is more expensive than the A6, and one if its key Japanese competitors, the Infiniti M, which I would easily buy over it.

The RX is more expensive than the Infiniti FX.

And the IS, RX and GS are standard with cloth seats- though you can only get them without ordering any options in America, but they're pretty easy to attain with cloth in Japan.

Tier one is for Bentley, Bugatti, Ferrari, Rolls Royce and Lamborghini.

Tier two is for the German Premium cars and you know their names.

Tier three is for the American and Japanese premium cars and you know their names.

Tier four is for the rest of the cars.

Oh, so that is what defines the tier system. I finally get it. Thanks for the clarification EL 34.

Ok here is the line up now.

1. Daimler Chrysler, BMW, Porsche, RUF, and VAG.

2. GM, Ford, and Chrysler

3. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, and Mazda.

That seems better.


What is the point of commenting on an article if your responses are the same??? Just say it now "German's are the best" and save your time as well as ours.

Of course with Daimler Chrysler I meant only the Smart and MB.

Aston Martin is in tier one.

Jaguar is in Tier two.

Land Rover is in tier two.

Lexus in part of tier three with Lincoln and Caddy.

Anymore questions?

it is done by country! germany, britain, japan, america. isn't that easier?

I don't think it will be direct competition, the porsche is and will be a more versatile car, for every day folks. This Audi will be bought buy middle age men in a mid life crisis. I like Audi but still think Porsche is a far better company

I see plenty of old folks driving very slowly in their Porsches.

"Will" - "A German car would be fine to own for a 'weekend car,' but not for everyday use to and from work, and certainly not for long vacations and road trips."

German car's are made for long vacations and road trips. Europe has some of the most demanding & enjoyable roads to drive in the world, and the German automakers build their car's to tackle these roads, making for a more enjoyable road trip.

The German automakers offer just as comfortable of a ride as Lexus does, only they offer more agility & performance.

"Will's" other comment - "With Lexus you get a great interior, and adequate performance as well. The difference is the quality and refinement, two things overlooked by all German fans on this site."

Again both Audi and MB offer richer feeling cabins than Lexus, with more expressive interior designs. For example the LS intergrades a digital clock that appears it was taken from a microwave into the dashboard. Mercedes on the other hand offers a beautifully designed hand clock in the S-Class.

You think Lexus offers adequate performance? Anybody who pushes their car's like I do know's that a Lexus won't satisfy. How about this for ya...A full size 750i (with exception of speed...but not braking, skidpad, or slalom) can outperform every single model offered by Lexus!

How's that for adequate performance "Will"? Your a Lexus fan bud, not a car enthusiast.

but will, its not like a german car just stops every so often, they are perfect for long distance, you over estimate the unreliability thing, they're not that bad.
and i do not think an es has more style than an m6.

How can we argue what "tier" cars are in without knowing what classifies a tier? Or how many "tiers" there are: 4? 17? 83?

This seems so be the exact same argument as every article on this site! I have not seen anyone change their mind on any car no matter how many negative poststhere have been.

And how does "STUPID AMERICANS" apply to Audi trying to improve their status in the marketplace?

"Will" where did I say that German car's are more reliable than Lexus? I didn't, because I realize that is Lexus's department. That said, I wouldn't go so far as saying Lexus is worlds ahead of the German's in reliability because their simply not. The new S-Class is an exceptionally smooth ride, smooth as any Lexus, and I know because I've ridden in it more than a few times.

Also for your performance specs...

According to R&T magazine the 750i runs 0-60MPH in 5.6 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.0 sec, brakes from 80MPH in 202ft., produces 90g's on the skidpad, & accomplishes 67.1MPH through the slalom.

For the IS350 it runs 0-60MPH in 5.4 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.0 sec, brakes from 80MPH in 222ft, produces 81g's on the skidpad, & accomplishes 64.5MPH through the Slalom.

Another comment that makes you loose credibility is -"the ES alone has more luxury, style, quality/reliability and value than the entire BMW line-up."

Please the car looks terrible as did the old one, it's on a FWD Camry platform...Exciting! Lexus's current L-Finnese theme is no question a take off of BMW's flame surfacing, are you blind? BMW embodies the soul of style, pressence, & ideas...Lexus rips them off.

"Will" don't take me for a kid, I've seen what's come & gone...What will be remembered & forgotten. So believe me when I say, Lexus doesn't make car's worth remembering. BMW on other hands sparks revolution.

BMW luxo barge outhandles Lexus's sportiest car, ouch (if thenumbers are correct) They seem a bit high for the 750i.

The R8 on the other hand will produce some great numbers. The magnetic suspension will provide a mode for outright performance and one for comfort. Only one of the great features on the R8. The full LED head light are amazing and will be available by the time the R8 goes on sale here.

You didn't post any "handling" numbers for the 330i, just acceleration and braking.

competition is good for all concerned. With Audi aiming for the top it will make ours take notice and work on keeping their own company on top.

Well, Will. The IS is a sports sedan, so it should have some sport in it, otherwise a Civic will do for you. But coming back to the R8, it will have plenty of sport and luxury (and some comfort) will be there as well.

very bold move for audi. yeah, this is one hell of a damn f#cking true sports car they created.

It will have the same comfort as the M6 or SL AMG. Which means it will be much more comfortable than such cars as the Ferrari F430.

"Will" you have no clue on what performance is...The IS350 outperforms the 330i in acceleration, that's it. Don't try and dismiss the performance numbers I gave you for the 750i as phoney, because there straight out of R&T magazine. Also read what I said again:

"A full size 750i (with EXCEPTION of speed...but not braking, skidpad, or slalom) can outperform every single model offered by Lexus!"

Weve already seen the performance numbers for the new 335i sedan, & it's just as fast as the coupe. Therefore it's faster than any Lexus made.

"Will" you don't know anything about owning a car from one of these brands, so that goes for reliability issues, ride comfort, or even sheer driving pleasure not offered by Lexus. I'm sure a Lexus was the first luxury car you owned so you decided to stick with it.

If R8 gets to 60 in under 4 seconds then it's the cheapest mid-engine exotic that goes that quick.

any BMW will outperform its comparable audi or MB equivalent. thats just a fact.

Oh really? AmazingBimmer.

Let's compare. Audi RS6 (previous version) to previous M5. Audi RS6 was faster in a straight-line.

Audi RS4 to BMW M3. RS4 wins

Audi R8 to M6, Audi R8 wins.

There is no possible way to even jump in this conversation at this point.

So I'll just put this in....the whole tier thing just doesn't seem right. By placing an automotive company in a specific tier or level, you are doing nothing but trying to put a final overall judgment on that company…which on this site and on others is near impossible.

We all know that BMW is great for long weekend drives and that Audi's Quattro system is unmatched. Lexus and MB have their interiors and other attributes, but there are arguments over and over about who has the best and while one may shine in one category it is not as good in another. I think it is impossible to place a company in a tier when there might be things that don't make it a competitor in some area.

Some have talked about placing companies from countries in tiers instead of the individual companies. That is in no way true since there are companies that are on a totally different, nay I say, customer focus.

Lexus is a perfect example. Lexus gave American’s what they wanted; a very reliable car with all the amenities and luxuries of the European cars, at a lower price. To the average American leather in a car is leather. Whether it is in a BMW or a Lexus or a Ford, and wood or wood finish is the same thing. Most people don’t even know that if you have real wood in the car you can’t treat it or clean it like the rest of the car. But the counter point to all of this is that Lexus rides very well but not as sporty or refined as BMW or say MB (though Will might disagree). Notice I said “as”. Don’t shoot me for making a small simple assessment.

Audi’s R8 should not be looked at as bringing Audi into the tier one status. That’s like saying an actor is A-List or B-List. The R8 should be brought in to shake the pants off the other European and Asian counterparts and make them go back to the drawing board.

Which it will.

Thanks...I'm waiting for it.

Will - I am just back and forth with Lexus on their interior. While I admire the contemporary look and clean 'metal' visual cue it has, at the same time the contemporary look just gets to me sometimes.

And as a red blooded American I agree that some our friends that live across the pond don't give us enought credit.

GermanNut
previous version rs6 was a limited produiction much higher priced car. the comparable car in Audi's lexicon is the S line. If you will compare, the rs line competes with the csl line, which BMW will always win. Audi has publicly stated that the RS line is not a mass produiced line, and a loss making one (which anyone can do). Second.. stop comparing the r8 with anything... nobody has a seen any stats on it. shows what you guys know. Jesus, what a biased bunch of ninnies

I have no doubt The R8 is an exeptionally good sports car they deserve it. As for comparing the Q7 to the LX I think its a no brainer the land cruiser Lexus has been there for a long time and its king of its segment.

In the Luxury aspect it goes like this, AND I HATE BMW.

1)Mercedes
2)BMW
3)Audi
4)Lexus

I also find Range Rover and Infiniti excellent luxury brands...

S4, The LX does not even compete with the X5 and ML they compete more with the GX and RX, Land rover discovery. The land cruiser/ Lexus has a niche that the Germans are only starting to compete in now recently eg: MB GL.

But I guess you will be telling me how better the Q7 and X5 is becaure they are German even if the Land Cruiser/Lexus is legendary Globally.The Germans are young at this sector they still need to perfect and refine it yet all of a sudden the Q7 is the best

The Land Cruiser and the Lexus rebadge are actual SUV (rough and ancient) compared to the Q7 that is very sporty and has some decent of road capabilites. As far as the R8 is concerned, it will do fine.

The R8 will eat the M6 or any other BMW for that matter alive on the Nurburgring, Amazing Bimmer.

The R8 will even best the time of the M3 CSL.

When it comes down to true levels of performance, the Audi R8 is unmatchable by anything in the BMW lineup. This includes straight-line and track performance on both the Nurburgring and Hockenheim circuits.

you use what for data??

I,ve heard BMW,s M devision is developing the legendary M1 again with an 750+ BHP V12 atmosferic M engine able to rev up to almost 10.000 RPM.....
0 to 60 under 3 seconds...
And NO speed limiter.....

Comings soon to an autobahn near you!!(i hope)

"Will" you ask more questions than you do answer!

The IS350 only outperforms the 330i
in acceleration, the 335i sedan will outperform every single Lexus made.

Also how is my point on BMW's full-size luxo barge outperforming Lexus's sportiest offerings weak? If you ask me, your counterpoint was retarted!

"Will" quotes -"How about the upcoming LS600h? You quoting that about the 7-Series is about as relevant as me quoting that the LS600h will outperform every normal-spec BMW, (this excludes M of course, Audi's RS4 outpeforms all M models.)" Are you stupid? We don't even know for sure the LS600h's numbers, nevermind how it performs! Besides you really think the larger Lexus LS will outperform the smaller Lexus IS? Figure it out "Will" the answers NO!

Again for the record, the M5 & M6 are both faster than the RS4, and the M-coupe outhandles it.

You Audi fans keep going on & on about how the R8 outperforms anything BMW has, but Mercedes has something outperforming everything from Audi & BMW. I don't care though because that's 1 car, BMW has tons of cars out performing Audi's & Benz's. I mean BMW has about as many car's outperforming their Audi & MB counterparts, as Audi does car's in their whole line-up.

Audi has all of two car's worthy of competing with BMW in the performance department, the RS4 & R8. BMW's luxo-barge is worthy of competing and winning the performance game with more than half of Audi's line-up.

Now tell me? Who's the 'ultimate driving machine'...Because it sure ain't Audi!

Will. keep repeating yourself.. you might convince a few 5 year olds.

My data AmazingBimmer? The fact that the RS4 lapped the Ring in 7:55 with sport tires and the fact that it also weight 600 pounds more than the R8, has the same exact engine, 2 more doors making it less aerodynamic and has 2 or 3 more seats.

Lastly, the R8 with V10 is going to DEMOLISH anything from th BMW or Mercedes camp on the Nurburgring.

Hell, the SLR McLaren can only manage a 7:52 on the Ring. That shows Mercedes' adoration for track-oriented cars.

The R8 with V10 will likely feature the 520 horsepower Bi-turbo V10, which will debut in the RS6 sometime next year.

Jugnu are you going to tell me that it is all hype and overestimation that an R8 with V10 and 520 horsepower will be faster than an R8 with V8 and only 420 horsepower?

Even worse, Jugnu are you going to tell me to only go with the manufacturer's estimated time and therby have total disregard for all the times showing faster numbers.

MunichRob, what we are saying is that when it comes down to ULTIMATE performance from both companies. This would not mean comparing the number of cars that outperform the other brand's respective offerings, but instead looking at the FASTEST POSSIBLE STRAIGHT-LINE ACCELERATION, FASTEST POSSIBLE SLALOM SPEED, QUICKEST NURBURGRING TIME, GRIP etc....

Audi wins.

RS4 has a faster slalom time and speed than any other BMW car including the M3, M5, M6 and Z4M roadster. The R8 will have a faster 0-60 time for sure in V10 form than any BMW offering and quite possibly V8 form too. The R8 in V10 guise and quite possibly in V8 as well, will have better Nurburgring times than any BMW offering.

Bottom Line: When we compare the best of the best of Audi, vs. the best of the best from BMW.

Audi wins.

Agreed!

Will, why wouldn't you answer his quation first...and then talk about audi and how they will demolish every bmw....and also there is no numbers for the R8, how do you know is going be faster than the m6 or sl55??

Perhaps because the RS4 already meets or beats those cars numbers and R8 will be lighter. How bout that for reasoning?

Yes, from a pure numbers standpoint, BMW offerings on the average will be better performing cars than the choices from Audi.

When we talk about who has the best performing cars overall, based on the fastest 0-60 time produced, fastest Nurburgring lap-time, highest slalom speed and best time, most grip from the entire lineup of cars offered from each brand.

Audi wins.

Overall performace in number of cars that out-perform Audi: BMWs win

Best outright performance from across the brand the best possible 0-60 time, slalom speed, Nurburgring lap time, grip:

Audis wins.

GermanNut.. WOW!/// what do you drive, just for conversation.? Audi wins? sport tires?... play back your conversation to yourself...all i have to say. is WOW!!

Nut, BMW goal is to sale more cars, they don't care if audi make fast cars...on the other hand, audi goal is to beat BMW in sport cars...if BMW turn thier attation to audi they will make cars that would smash all audi line up, inclouding the R8...

That's right 528i......IF. BMW won't for the simple reason that being the #1 premium selling brand is good enough for them and whatever they have been doing to date , has obviously worked.

Yeah that's right AmazingBimmer. Wow an Audi that can lap the Ring in under 7:50, and Audi that can sprint to 60 mph in under 4 seconds an Audi that can slalom faster and at a higher speed than a Z4M roadster or M6.

You know what AmazingBimmer, Wow the RS4 statistic is already a reality. We have confirmation from Audi executives that the R8 will come in V10 form sometime next year and it will also be wow when that car rips to 60 in under 4.0 seconds and clears 7:50 on the ring.

Just accept the facts. BMW sells more cars than Audi world-wide but Audi produces better overall performance figures when compared to BMW.

BMW numbers are only stronger here in the US Audi trumps them in Germany. Americans by image which is why Lexus and Acura even existhere. Acura is not as strong but the image things sells here. Any time you see a 60 year old woman driving a Cadillac Escalade on 24's there is something to be said for perceived image. But this too will change for Audi real soon. So haters hate on.

Don't tell me I can't include certain cars. The criteria is, as long as the cars are street-legal and have an Audi or BMW badge on them, they are fair game.

In the overall performance game Audi wins.

Don't tell me I can't include certain cars. The criteria is, as long as the cars are street-legal and have an Audi or BMW badge on them, they are fair game.

In the overall best performance game Audi wins.

And the fact that the BMW camp people still continue to come out over and over again that nothing beats a BMW, just instills more and more the whole "I'm better than you" attitude that MOST BMW drivers have.

Audi camp does to, but the at least acknowledge that Audi isn't 100% perfect. Minus two or three of 'em.

Well, the RS4 is just as fast around the track, so no beating here.

MDalle, Howcome the RS4 posted a faster time with regular tires on the Nurburgring when compared to the BMW M5 and an identical time to the BMW M6?

The new RS6 is going to tear the M5 right off its throne. The RS6 will out-accelerate it. If the Audi RS4 is any indication of Audi's re-application of the RS philosophy which would include much better weight distribution, handling, feel and power then the RS6 will be an animal ready to track down the M5.

Audi isn't trying to catch BMW in price. BMW is actually trying to catch Audi in the pricing game.

OKAY! BOTH AUDI AND BMW SUCK! BUY A FERRARI, LAMBO, LOTUS, TVR OR SOMETHING THEY ARE PURE SPORTS CARS PLUS YOU WONT GET A POSER WITH GREASE IN THEIR HAIR DRIVING A CHEAPER MASS MARKET CAR OF THE SAME BRAND.

THERE ARE NO 3 SERIES OR A4 VERSIONS OF FERRARIS AND LAMBOS, SO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNIQUE WITH A HIGH END PURE SPORTS CAR. NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT SOME DWEEB IN HIS 318i NEXT TO YOU SPOILING YOUR BRAND.

THERE ARE NO 3 SERIES OR A4 VERSIONS OF FERRARIS AND LAMBOS, SO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNIQUE WITH A HIGH END PURE SPORTS CAR. NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT SOME DWEEB IN HIS 318i NEXT TO YOU SPOILING YOUR BRAND.

Put down the coffee Keyser..... :)

"Wilco" just so you know I would never listen to techno music. If anybody on this site has read my comments they'll know I drive a black 650i coupe. My african background won't allow my nappy roots to be slicked back smart ass.

"GermanNut"...If we were to see a review on the M6 equipped with aftermarket sport tires & not the standard run-flats. It most likey would beat the RS4's track time. I recently saw a review in Bimmer magazine I believe it was, on the M Coupe...Anyway just thought I should mention, it ran the slalom at 71.2MPH...faster than the edmunds slalom time for the RS4!

And "Will"...There's no speculation, there's just pure fact! We know the performance numbers for the 750i, & they're way better than the IS350's numbers. Go look for yourself, I got it straight out of R&T magazine.

And for the last time I could give two sh*ts if Audi makes all of 3 cars that outperform their BMW counterparts. BMW has like 20 cars that outperform their Audi counterparts. The outgoing X5 can outperform Audi's brand new Q7. The last generation 540i outperforms the current A6 4.2.

Get it through your heads that overall, BMW is upstaging Audi more than a little bit in the performance department.

MunichRob, Dear Sir, Audi until now has taken a ver conservative road. BMW's don't just outperform them because they can, it's because they weren't trying to compete in that arena. That has all changed now. So the out going X5 out performs the Q7 but does it carry 7? NO. Is it as big? NO. Not a real direct compettitor. It's funny how more and more I read how they compare the RS4 and the M5, what happend there? The 540i out performs the A6 4.2, but does the 540i hve an all wheel drive system in that comparrison? NO In fact the new BMW 550i still no AWD is only 3 tenths of a second faster than the A6 4.2 @ 5.5 to 5.8. The A6 4.2 also weighs 400 pounds more at these figures. How is that out performing? Get the real facts before you come here to bash. Opinions are one thing but you have come here to bash one brand that's not the one you care for. Over the next 2 to 3 years you will see a shift in performance figures. Let's talk then.

Not true.

Get it through your head Munichrob, when it comes down to ultimate performance, Audi is upstaging BMW.

And for the last time I could give two sh*ts if Audi makes all of 3 cars that outperform their BMW counterparts


then stop posting. so u dont listen to techno, no prob.

M6 CSL will not come out because the point of the M6 is to be a luxury-gt that is heavily sport oriented. You take out the luxury aspect and you are left with a gt that is heavily sport-oriented.

Not going to sell very well for BMW customers.

The M6 CSL will come out and that's a fact.

MDalle, the M6 is faster than a RS4.

The claimed bellow 8 minutes is bogus.
Sport Auto got about 8.09 and that was with the optional sport chassi, P Zero Corsa tyres and Ceramic brakes.

On Hockenheim it was slower that the M5, not to mention M6.

The M6 CSL and M5 CS are coming.

Also someone mentioned the IS350 and compared to the 335i.
I feel sorry for him the 335i will the IS to pieces on the track even with those crapy runflats.

156!

yay i win!

Who cares... the Audi R8 will take down the M6 CSL as well.

In V10 form the R8 will trash everything in BMW's lineup including all CSL models on the Ring and probably straight-line too.

The operative word here is --- chase! Keep trying.

Can you see James Bond driving a VW?!

NOT!