Has BMW's Styling Department LOST Its Way? All-New 8-Series Concept HEARTS Aston Martin?

No, it's not as naturally exquisite as the S-Coupe. And, yes, it's derivative of Aston. But I'd much rather have a bit of derivation vs. a company that tries to be "original" and "innovative" with mostly tragic results (Hi, Lexus LC, I'm talking to you).

I'm liking this coupe more and more I see it or watch videos on it.

The LC is definitely better than the 8.

Until they get rid of their cow-catcher grills - Lexus simply cannot compete with the 8. AS far as a comparison with Aston - Aston Martin sells only a very few cars per year - even fewer come here - and looking somewhat similar to them is a compliment - not a probem.

I seriously doubt that any of the big German 4 will ever be acquired - except between themselves - a Japanese company is not going to do it.

I'm glad you like the 8, but it's all down to opinion. The LC already looks dated to me and only looks good in specific colors (Yes, even Darringer has said that multiple times), which to me, is not an indication of strong design. And the rear 3/4 of the LC is nothing short of tragic.

It looks too "forced," contrived, and "obvious" (like someone who's desperate for attention). Not my cup of tea, for sure.

Looks like a stretched LF-A with the greenhouse of an Infiniti G37/? Coupe.

While it is not the car for me, I'm sure wealthy drivers, usually trend older, in the market for a large GT will buy it in droves.

That trunk looks big enough to eat 2+ golf bags and a wheeled bag full of pharmaceutical samples.

BMW and styling do not go hand in hand.

Either you get the Aztek ugly garbage of the Bangle era or the deadly dated looking garbage of the current regime. Yes, BMW can do ugly-assed cars too: i3 and i8. But there is ZERO vision at BMW. BMW is setting itself up to be acquired. Toyota?

You know, I'd say 'put down the booze' but if you really are drinking this early in the morning then I'd rather say 'speak to someone'. Good luck.

The rear looks too much like an LC500. The side looks too much like an Aston Martin but the BMW brand obviously lacks Aston's cachet.

The interior will be a futuristic LED blingfest.

The driving dynamics will be just like the new 7-Series and 5-Series, which means they will be anything but Ultimate Driving Machine.

The 8-Series is a complete disaster already and will be dead on arrival.

People don't want to pay $150K for a BMW that looks 95% like a Lexus from the rear, tries too hard to be an Aston Martin from the side but lacks the British brand's cachet, has an interior that is plastic and driving dynamics that fail to live up to its slogan.

BMW's new 7-Series is a sales disaster. The new 5-Series finished second to last in a Car & Driver comparison test behind Audi's old A6. Why does anyone think BMW has any chance of this 8-Series being successful.

The S-Class Coupe will continue to dominate this segment and BMW's strategy will once again fall far short.

The failed exterior design strategy (either lack of evolution with 7-Series and 5-Series or simply copying Lexus and Aston with 8-Series) lack of sporty driving dynamics, cheap interior quality and high price is causing BMW's U.S. sales to fall far behind Mercedes-Benz's and its growth rate is far below Audi's.

Shame GermaNut, I know it must be tough for you to see a concept like this when your favourite brand is currently being as mismanaged as it is. But chin up, I think things will get better for Audi and I'm sure they'll have something similar in a couple of years and be right back on track. Thinking of you :)

Firewombat, Audi's global sales decline can be attributed to China and the disagreement between local Chinese Audi dealers and Audi AG.

Two important takeaways from that are:

1) The situation is not a global problem
2) The situation is not a product problem

The most important thing is producing cars that appeal to buyers and Audi is doing that. Once the China sales issue gets resolved, it could mean trouble for Mercedes-Benz.

We already know Audi's U.S. sales growth is outpacing Mercedes-Benz's and BMW's. Audi was the longtime sales leader in China and if it can get its sales to fire up in China like Mercedes-Benz is doing - watch out!

With sales growth outpacing the competition in the U.S., continuously launching desirable products with cutting edge innovation and a hopeful turnaround in the Chinese market, the future is not as bad as it seems.

I think you mean BMW and not MB in China, since BMW is the sales leader there atm, as per recent news. You should try and keep up with news like that if you're going to make an informed comment.

And like I said, with dieselgate, the Chinese dealer situation, etc. there is a lot of mismanagement but I still believe they can get through this and try and wrangle back some success.

By your own account, there's no way Audi should ever make an A9 because sales of the A6 and A8 are so much lower than that of rivals and therefore, again by your logic, why even bother with a large coupe? But I still think they should try. You know, if VW says it's ok.

http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko/Mercedes-Benz-in-April-50th-consecutive-sales-record.xhtml?oid=16846556

MB Global Sales in April: 180,599 (+10.1%) Global YTD: 741,224 (+14.5%)

MB China Sales in April: 47,627 (+35.3%) China YTD: 192,574 (+36.8%)


https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0270805EN_US/bmw-group-records-strong-global-sales-growth-in-april?language=en_US

BMW Global Sales in April: 164,641 (+9.4%) Global YTD: 668,095 (+6.2%)

BMW China Sales in April: 48,869 (+39.2%) China YTD: 191,697 (+18.2%)

Based on the above, Mercedes-Benz (+14.5%) is growing at more than double BMW's (6.2%) rate globally YTD. In China, Mercedes-Benz (+36.8%) is growing at more than double BMW's (+18.2%) rate YTD. Mercedes-Benz (192,574) not BMW (191,697) is the sales leader in China. Looks like you, not me are the one who fails to keep up with news and makes erroneous comments as a result.

If you want to make assumptions go right ahead. However, spend the time to do some research because I'll call you out on your errors just as I did above.

You also missed my point about BMW and the 8-Series Coupe. BMW's strategy is not working and they are applying more or less the same strategy to the 8-series. However, since there is no direct 8-Series predecessor recently, they did more of a Lexus LC500 rear and Aston Martin DB9 copy, which won't help sales as it's not innovative enough.

As far as Audi and the A9 is concerned, Audi's products are appealing to buyers as witnessed by its U.S. and global performance (growth) over the last 5 years. Audi is taking a strategy that has been increasingly successful and will apply it to the A9. BMW is taking a strategy that has not been as successful in terms of global sales growth over the last 10 years (from the previous 7 & 5-Series to their current models and loss of global sales title to Mercedes-Benz last year) and applying it to a market segment that demands even more attention to design and interior quality given the $140K-$150K price.

Audi will likely go ahead with an A9 because it's a current void in its lineup. The difference is the strategic direction that Audi will apply to the its flagship coupe offering versus what BMW is doing.

The sales for China from news reports I referred to are month-to-month. You're a big fan of month-to-month sales figures aren't you? In fact you seem obsessed.

I know it's difficult for your to understand as you're constantly using the couple of thousand cars Audi sells in the US per year in every comment to create an impression that they are having experience huge growth, when in reality they are far behind BMW and MB in total numbers.

BMW also outsold MB globally last month but I'm sure you missed that too. In terms of proving each other wrong, I can point to every one of our interactions where you've been wrong, how could you not be? You mainly use a biased opinion, childish opinions, and an overwrought theme that sounds like a BMW killed your parents.

I can't think of one series of posts where you've use facts and figures vs. opinions to win an argument. Happy for you to go through your threads to prove me wrong. And that must be in, at least, 5 years now.

The most recent being when you called the i8 a sales disaster in the US when it actually outsold the R8 and AMG GT combined. You had no response to that and in a discussion after that, where I pointed out that your God company Audi was not doing well globally, your response was "What if?" What if things go better? You have nothing. And we can go on. And on. And on.

Do I need to show you figures to prove the 7 series is not a sales disaster? No. Do I need to provide websites where car journalists have said that the 5 and 7 series have the best quality interiors in class? No.

You're the one who is delusional. You're the one who sounds like a teenager with no friends.

People already spend $150k on a BMW coupe and it outsells the competition. Including the closest product from your beloved brand. Once a dream car, now not even a headline. I really liked the original R8.

As I've been saying to you for years, none of these car companies make terrible cars and it mostly comes down to personal preference. But when you let your personality disorder dictate your comments you're going to come across as an idiot. Which you constantly do.

I'm sure Audi will get there and I'm sure they'll get passed this whole "lying and cheating customers" thing. The dishonesty, the conniving corruption etc.

They're already back in a way, buying back cars, fixing engines and creating new cars, I wish them all the best. Until then, stay in school.

"BMW also outsold MB globally last month but I'm sure you missed that too."

MB Global Sales in April: 180,599 (+10.1%)

BMW Global Sales in April: 164,641 (+9.4%)

180,599 > 164,641

Please provide evidence to support your claim and prove that my numbers above are incorrect.

"I know it's difficult for your to understand as you're constantly using the couple of thousand cars Audi sells in the US per year in every comment to create an impression that they are having experience huge growth, when in reality they are far behind BMW and MB in total numbers."

Audi is experiencing huge growth. Growth is the change from one measurement to the next. Total numbers are absolute. Look at BMW's U.S. sales in 2006 vs. their sales in 2016. Then look at Audi's U.S. sales in 2006 vs 2016. Calculate the percentage change for each one.


Audi 2016 U.S. sales = 210,213

https://www.audiusa.com/newsroom/news/press-releases/2017/01/audi-breaks-annual-u-s-sales-record-in-2016

Audi 2006 U.S. sales = 90,116

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20070103005725/en/Audi-Announces-Record-U.S.-Sales-2006

(210,213- 90,116)/90,116 = 133% increase in 10 years


BMW 2016 U.S. Sales = 313, 174

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0266989EN_US/bmw-group-u-s-reports-december-and-2016-sales?language=en_US

BMW 2006 U.S. Sales = 274,432

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2015/12/bmw-vs-mercedes-vs-audi-usa-auto-sales-stats-2006-2015.html

(313,174 - 274,432) / 274, 432 = 14.11% increase in 10 years


Please provide evidence to refute my claim that Audi's growth rate (not absolute numbers) is greater than BMW's from 2006 to 2016.

I enjoy schooling you in statistics and calculations. Please, try to argue with me some more so I can make you look bad.

As I said, please provide evidence to refute my claims.

I like it, I think they need to hit with some Bondo in a few places but it has those beautiful classic sports car proportions which are always a good start.

It is a concept so it is hard to know which parts could be on the future 8 series coupe when it debuts. Things will change. If it stays as is it will hit the mark with BMW buyers. The LC500 is just too much origami-esqe design for my tastes. The massive grill is also a non starter for me. This is classy and sleek. And yes a bit of a DB11/Vanquish homage. But so be it. Beautiful women are quite similar in a lot of ways too... and that works just fine.

All I can say is that it better drive like a dream because it's nothing special to look at.

"I know it's difficult for your to understand as you're constantly using the couple of thousand cars Audi sells in the US per year in every comment to create an impression that they are having experience huge growth, when in reality they are far behind BMW and MB in total numbers."

Audi is experiencing huge growth. Growth is the change from one measurement to the next. Total numbers are absolute. Look at BMW's U.S. sales in 2006 vs. their sales in 2016. Then look at Audi's U.S. sales in 2006 vs 2016. Calculate the percentage change for each one.


Audi 2016 U.S. sales = 210,213

https://www.audiusa.com/newsroom/news/press-releases/2017/01/audi-breaks-annual-u-s-sales-record-in-2016

Audi 2006 U.S. sales = 90,116

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20070103005725/en/Audi-Announces-Record-U.S.-Sales-2006

(210,213- 90,116)/90,116 = 133% increase in 10 years


BMW 2016 U.S. Sales = 313, 174

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0266989EN_US/bmw-group-u-s-reports-december-and-2016-sales?language=en_US

BMW 2006 U.S. Sales = 274,432

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2015/12/bmw-vs-mercedes-vs-audi-usa-auto-sales-stats-2006-2015.html

(313,174 - 274,432) / 274, 432 = 14.11% increase in 10 years


Please provide evidence to refute my claim that Audi's growth rate (not absolute numbers) is greater than BMW's from 2006 to 2016.

I enjoy schooling you in statistics and calculations. Please, try to argue with me some more so I can make you look bad.

As I said, please provide evidence to refute my claims.

Oh, I've struck a nerve. Lol, not going to respond to the "schooling" comment as the threads speak for themselves...

You just provided the evidence. Audi is 102,000+ cars behind BMW, who is behind MB in the US. Their total growth in the US last year was less than 10,000 cars. That's out of more than 2m cars+ BMW and MB sell in a year globally, I think Audi is less at about 1.87m. Will probably be less this year with the China debacle.

Which proves my point in terms of how important that sales figure is globally. I'm sure they're teaching you math at your school but there's still a long way to go obviously. I'm not here to teach you about things like market saturation points etc.

But when they do eventually get to the same level as the other 2 Germans, or Lexus in the US, let's just hope they don't make the same mistakes again, i.e. emissions cheating or treating dealers so badly they won't even buy cars for their inventory. And whatever else they've done that we don't know about, or are yet to discover.

The truth is that, if you look at your "evidence" it's scattered. All over the place. You use US figure, then Chinese figures, you use Mercedes-Benz figures, then global figures. Then Audi figures. YTY figures, then MTM. Whatever suits you at the time. Whatever protects your unfounded biased, childish, delusional views.

I think a couple of us can go back just over a year ago or more when you used these childish rants against Mercedes-Benz, until you realised it served you better to use them as a crutch. It's all very interesting but it also gets a bit much.

If you were reading this with clear eyes you'd realise I never said Audi's percentage growth rate wasn't higher then BMWs or MBs in the US, those are stats so no idea why you would argue that I did? I never disputed those stats but I have said that the actual contribution toward sales on a global scale is insignificant in terms of units sold. You're more than welcome to check my comments for that.

At this point, it seems like your arguing against yourself. But let's wait for the "A9" and see what that looks like, I'm sure you'll love it. And I'm sure they'll be a percentage growth figure you'll use to defend it. Even though it will be outsold.

Cars are so much more than sales figures or growth in sales, cars are personal and a passion for a lot of people, which is why we're all here. Being obsessively negative about one brand simply because it's a rival brand to the one you like, or trying to prove which is the biggest company isn't constructive or mature. So happy to move although, given your history, I know you probably wont. So I'll keep calling you out and correcting you until your graduate... and then maybe for a little while after that too :)

Please provide evidence to refute my claim that Audi's growth rate (not absolute numbers) is greater than BMW's from 2006 to 2016.

I'm still waiting... Your rant didn't address my question.

In any case, the battle for global supremacy will be determined in China. We know as an automaker's fortunes grow or decline in China so too does its global standing. While Audi is experiencing problems in China, it was the long-time market leader in the Chinese market so the brand knows what it takes to be successful.

I think Audi will overcome its dealer problems in China and the next A8 is going to catch people by surprise. The Level III autonomous driving technology will be very interesting to see in action. Even more interesting will be to see which brands try to copy and surpass the A8's autonomous tech.

It's better for us because I can't wait to not have to drive at all.

Sport, you're the last person on this site to be calling anyone out for a "rant" is you...

Not sure what you're waiting for?

If read my post, which obviously you didn't, then you'd realise my point is not that there was no growth rate for Audi in the US, or that it's not better than competitors, but that in terms of sales numbers, it's almost irrelevant globally. Do you speak "Engarish"?

The growth rate in terms of US unit sales you keep quoting (absolute numbers) is minuscule in terms of what Audi needs to catch up to the competition in the US, China, or globally.

So please, consider it addressed. For the 3rd time. Not sure how else to put it.

Interesting though, again, you're just using BMW in this case and not MB, and again, that you're just using the US as an example.

"Global Supremacy" is so North Korean :) Very cute. You obviously missed my point about cars and passion etc. Which is sad. But then I suspect there are demographic and nationalistic factors at play here. Audi is very popular in certain parts of the world.

There is no logic in your motivation or reasoning but in a previous convo, back in the day, you accused me of "always wanting the last word". The same is true today.

Why are there 3 stories about this BMW 8 Series all within 24 hours, especially given this is a vehicle that will not sell that many units? The market for luxury sports coupes is not that large.

Looks like it been hit in the side, great look.

It's like three different cars in one.

Don't fret, it looks good.