Toyota 86, Vs Mazda MX-5 RF - Which Is Fastest On A Road Course?

I can't stand Jason Cammisa with his idiotic commentating or his juvenile journalism. He's bashed on Audi one too many times in the past, and all for the wrong reasons.

I don't get these hot laps either. Sure Randy Pobst was a race car driver, but he's past his prime. And no one, even Lewis Hamilton, can achieve perfect lap times with one attempt. Not to mention that some modern cars will simply feel foreign to you when you first get into that car.

Both of these vehicles are great if you want to be James May aka Captain Slow. The problem with these two RWD supposed sports cars is that several FWD cars are better handlers.

Other than maybe the Honda Civic Type R no FWD vehicles could be better handlers than any RWD vehicles. If you mean "better handlers" in terms of cornering G's then yes I guess you could call a GTI or a Focus ST better handlers. Most FWD cars suffer from torque steer (Golf GTI excepted)for obvious engineering reasons. Further a FWD car gives you limited car control options. It is usually understeer or understeer with snap oversteer. A RWD car can be balanced on the throttle with the tail out in a perfect drift. Again the Type R is not out yet. But 99.99% of FWD cars cannot be balanced on throttle. The Focus RS which is AWD can only perform the drift because it is designed into the chassis. Further if the BRZ/86 actually had decent tires on it(instead of Prius Tires) the cornering capability would be comparable to a Porsche Cayman. Yes they are slow in today's world although roughly 6 second 0-60 can never really be considered slow.

You clearly have a bias that is not supported by fact. The fact is that a GTI can easily lap faster than the wheezing Miata and the unruly-as-hell GT86. The Focus ST and the Cooper S are no slouches either.

This statement shows a lack of understanding of how to drive a vehicle: "Further a FWD car gives you limited car control options."

All vehicles have limited control options but someone who has been to driving school knows that a modern FWD car is quite competent. In this case, the GTI can dust both the Miata and the GT86 because it has far better chassis tuning and power than the Japanese crap storms.

Yet another statement that shows lack of understanding about track driving is: "A (sic) RWD car can be balanced on the throttle with the tail out in a perfect drift." When a vehicle drifts, it is fun for the driver most certainly, but drifting is slow cornering.

You say: "FWD cars cannot be balanced on throttle." but that is incorrect as well. I'd be happy to demonstrate the technique because FWD technique is decidedly unorthodox, but it depends on invoking oversteer and using the throttle to balance it back toward neutral via understeer.

Part of the reason that a GTI is faster is simply down to the fact that it has a lot more powerful motor. A GTI has 220 LBS of torque where as a Miata has 148 LBs of Torque. A BRZ/86 has 156 LBs of torque. So on any straight away a GTI will easily dust these 2 RWD cars. FWD cars properly set up can do quite well on tracks. But we are talking stock versus stock. Further it would depend on which type of track you would be on. Anything with a long straight would most likely go in the GTI favor. Both the Miata's and BRZ/86 are momentum cars. If they lack the power, they make up for it in the turns. And yes the technique for FWD cars is different than RWD cars and yes they can handle quite well. The bottom line RWD cars have a handling advantage and a potential power advantage in terms of what you can do with them. I presume you've heard of Flying Miata. You cant put that much power in a FWD car and have it handle properly. Finally have you ever watched the episode of Top Gear while Jeremy Clarkson is drifting a GT86 while reading a book. You can't do that in a GTI or Mini CooperS or even my Fiat 500 Abarth(Although I have been able to promote mild oversteer in my Abarth when I've done time attack at my local race track). I'm guessing due to its very short wheelbase.)A RWD car simply has more handling options, can take more power and given enough power can beat a FWD car of similar power. I'm certain if the Miata and a BRZ/86 had similar power and torque to a Golf or Mini Cooper S in the hands of an accomplished driver the Miata and the BRZ/86 would be quicker on most tracks.

My condolences on the Fiat. LOL The bottom line is that the GT86 and the Miata DON'T have a track advantage over the GTI and the supposed handling superiority of their RWD platforms simply is not worlds better than the GTI. If you know how to drive the GTI, the GT86 and Miata simply don't stand a chance. If you want more power, RWD, and less cost, get a Mustang V6 or 2.3 because the Mustang has tremendously good handling and can dust the Japanese garbage.

The Fiat is a fun car to drive and is very tunable with lots of mods available. Further you can enjoy it as much at low speeds as you can at high speeds. With the Golf and the Mini(especially the Golf)around town it's very little different then driving a normal base Golf or base Mini. You don't really get a chance to enjoy what they can do unless you're above legal speeds or your on a track. Again it all depends on the track as for which car does best as well as driver ability. Miata have had race car series for many years so it is clearly a car that has established itself as a track car. Mustang and especially Camaro offer a lot of bang for the buck but they jump over 30 grand quickly when you add average options now. You can't buy a Mustang V6 new anymore. Other than the fact that it is too big and heavy I have no disagreement with you on Mustang.

By your logic,so is the Trabant "Miata have (sic) had race car series for many years so it is clearly a car that has established itself as a track car."

Yes you can: "You can't buy a Mustang V6 new anymore." The 2018 will no longer have a V6.

We're not happy about that because the V6 for us outsold the 2.3 by a factor of 2:1. The V6 was an easy sell as is the 5.0. The 2.3 is either pushing the person's price limit where the V6 is more affordable or it begs the question of why not spend a little more and get the truly wonderful V8. It would not surprise me that Mustang sales tank for 2018.

As for it being too big or too heavy, if it roasts a Miata around the track--as it does--it is the superior car.

The Miata is made for old farts with slow reaction times and is purposefully slow so that they can drive flat out and think they are awesome drivers at the track when in reality they are perpetually in the way and despised by drivers with real cars.

I'll pretend your not the slightest bit biased against the Miata and BRZ and discuss the Mustang. My understanding is the 2.3 is going to have more torque, improved handling. The V8 should at least have horsepower on par now with the Camaro SS. Further with the chassis reinforcements and the new shock option it should handle as well also. Given the similar performance parameters of both vehicles it would be hard for me not to choose the Mustang for 3 basic reasons.
1)It has a prettier shape.
2)You can see out of it in day to day traffic.
3)It has a better quality interior.

I hope Ford can put some effort to making the ecoboost four at least sound better. If they can do it with the Focus RS why can't they do for the Mustang?

@Mini22 Why pretend? Bias can be positive or negative, but it's only detrimental when it is negative and not based on empirical fact. My negative bias toward the Miata and GT86 is based on my own factual observations.

I'm not against the Mustang 2.3, but the V6 definitely has an audience that Ford is throwing away. As soon as we knew the V6 was dead for 2018 we dramatically increased our orders for base V6 2017 Mustangs that we cannot keep in stock, as the 2.3s languish in comparison to the V6 and V8 models.

The sound problem is that a buzzy turbo 4 makes sense in the Focus RS, but that same sound does not say "muscle car". I like the angry beehive sound of the RS, but a buzzy Mustang leaves me cold. Now factor in that the 2.3 in the Mustang sounds more like something is wrong with the engine than it says powerful and you have the issue pegged.

OK-The only thing I will say on the MX5 Miata is that it has done very well on Laguna Seca compared to a Golf GTI. On timed laps that Road and Track did the GTI was 3/4 of a second quicker. For all it's extra power and great suspension that is not a great time difference on a track like Laguna. Lots of hills which would clearly favor the GTI with it's turbo power. One would think at least a 3 or 4 second gap.

As for the Focus RS. The engine sound in that car does not sound all that bad. Yet it does not sound the same in the Mustang. The question is WHY?