US Issues Five International Arrest Warrants For Former VW Managers

I certainly hope that those people who chose profit over humanity[1] are prosecuted, convicted, and serve a suitable jail time. My thinking applies primarily to the upper echelon, executive, and board members at VW who ruled by intimidation and fear, rather than the minions in the trenches fearing for their jobs.

I also hope that the prosecution does not start and end at VW.

The big problem here (in my opinion) is that VW is not being prosecuted for emitting high levels of poisonous compounds (NOx), or endangering human health. They are guilty of using a "cheat device" to pass the in-lab-only emissions tests. Other manufacturers who passed the lab tests, and who emit many multiples of lab-legal emissions while operating in the real world, and who accomplished this by means other than what the law defines as a "cheat device," get a free pass. Surprisingly, it's not against the law!

While an interesting comment - Steve - the problem is - the way the system really does work is that ALL the makers had to do was pass the lab tests - that is the law of the land. THERE is NO implication in the law that the cars should also do as well in the real world. The same is true of gasoline engines as well. AND gas mileage is also a lab test - and the government has gone out of its way to try to equate THAT number with real life conditions as well. The fact is - we do not have a law that specifies a real world emissions standard for them to comply with - and the idea that they would do so with the current levels is being naive.

This is true because - that is the only way to properly and consistently test cars under the almost exact same conditions - which does not exist in real life.

And Matt - while you COULD try to change the Law in the USA regarding when to test emissions - the Supreme Court has already spoken on that as well - saying that the government cannot change their procedures in mid-stream. THe Government would have to re-visit the testing and give manufacturers plenty of lead time to comply with a changed test procedure. The government tried to change the testing but the makers sued saying that they cannot just change their cars that quickly and would need time (Years) to re-engineer the engines to comply - since they design and make the engines to comply with certain required tests - but not others.

Kind of naive Steve. That level of perfection, if possible at all, would be so expensive it would triple (or more)the price of your A5. Life is a series of comprises and lab tests are a comprise to get attention to problems and solutions enacted to reduce, not eliminate, their effects. Pass the test and you have done your part. VW cheated on the test. Others passed and have cleaner systems than the would have had without engineering for a test. Aren't you and engineer? Was everything you did/do perfect? Your constant harping on this is getting old. Please give it a rest.

@BobM the down-arrow people are just easily triggered, overcompensatory types who are incapable of an original thought so they swallow and promulgate the false narrative.

Emissions and MPG testing needs to be simplified.

steady state 25mph
steady state 65mpg

Lab tests have to be done in the lab, because you need consistent, repeatable results. That can never happen during an actual road test because there are too many variables. The standard can't be a moving target. Set the target, and any car that passes the lab test (without cheating!) is good to go for the road.

BINGO!

atc98092: Computer Science 101 tells us, if you take a flawed process and computerize it, you will get consistent, repeatable, and absolutely useless results, very very quickly. The same applies to an in-lab-only, easily gamed emissions test that does not reflect emissions when the vehicle operates in the real world.

To put this in plain English, so readers can easily understand it: A useless/wrong answer remains useless/wrong, no matter how consistently or repeatedly you get it.

As an FYI, shortly after Dieselgate blew its lid, European authorities saw how useless current in-lab-only testing methodologies are, and they began working on developing new emission testing methodologies that will more accurately reflect real-world conditions. This is already in progress.

So much for beliefs that the current way is the only way, nothing else is possible because it's a moving target and there are too many variables, needing consistency and reproducibility (while ignoring uselessness), etc.

atc98092 wrote "...Set the target, and any car that passes the lab test (without cheating!) is good to go for the road."

another way to say this is: If VW can get the same results -- being "clean" in the lab while emitting 40x more emissions on the road -- then they're koay, so long as they don't use what the law considers to be a "cheat device."

I understand your position. I understand that is the law. I just think it's stupid to not address real-world pollution while believing all is well because the in-lab-only test says so. To each their own, right?

Steve. The process is consistent and repeatable in the lab. It is not flawed. VW cheated and that is the problem. EVERYTHING the EPA regulates is managed by a standard test method done by set conditions (time, temp, humidity, etc.) on a calibrated set of specific, by brand, instruments. The overwhelming majority are done in a lab, as in the field measurements have too many variables that cause variations in the outcome, and besides sensitive scientific equipment usually isn't robust enough to survive in the field. If that is unacceptable to you then you'll have to stop drinking water and breathing air as that is how the EPA determines if it is safe. Because USDA does the same type of testing for food and beverages stop eating and drinking. Also no medications either, as the FDA uses these methods for medical manufacturing testing. The key to all this a standard repeatable test method under controlled conditions everybody has to meet, by law.

Vette71 wrote “…The process is consistent and repeatable in the lab…”

You’re right! However, the data clearly shows the in-lab “emissions numbers” relate little, or not at all to the same vehicle’s emissions while operating in the real world. Mercedes, Fiat/Chrysler, AND OTHERS are currently under investigation because they passed the lab emission test with flying colors, while producing many times above lab-legal levels while operating in the real world. FYI, this is consistent with what the UK government discovered in their own, real-world tests, shortly after Dieselgate blew. The UK discovered ALL tested diesels and virtually all gasoline vehicles (they tested multiple brands, multiple models) produce real-world emissions that are well in excess of their lab numbers. Current US-based investigations (on Mercedes, Fiat/Chrysler, etc.) center around whether this was accomplished using a prohibited cheat device, which is illegal. If they accomplished these results by any means other than what the law considers an illegal cheat device, then no law was broken, and they cannot be prosecuted.


Vette71 also wrote “…It [the lab-only emissions testing methodology] is not flawed…”

That depends on what you consider a “flaw.” If the intention is to have manufacturers’ vehicles pass a lab emission test that does not, in any way, reflect the vehicle’s actual emissions while operating in the real world, then the current in-lab emissions testing methodology is successful, and it is now flawed.

On the other hand, if the intention is to reduce air pollution, and the strategy to accomplish this is to require vehicles to pass the current in-lab-only emission test, while believing that the same vehicles produce similar emissions while they operate in the real world… well, that strategy (i.e., the in-lab-only test) has proven to be a colossal failure. This was demonstrated clearly by the UK government (and others) in their own real-world tests shortly after Dieselgate debuted.

So depending on the observer’s beliefs (see above), the current in-lab-only emissions test system works perfectly, or it’s useless (or practically so).

^^^
Typo: And end, in3rd from last paragraph: "and it is now flawed" -> "and it is NOT flawed"

Steve. Congress passes a law and the EPA designs a test since they are responsible for enforcing the law. In this case the EPA designed a lab test that if a manufacturer passed, then in the EPA's opinion the vehicle in the real world would be OK. The EPA can change the test if they find it isn't doing the job, BUT and big BUT, by law they can't go back and force manufacturers who already passed it to redo those vehicles. It would apply to future vehicles only. VW allegedly knowingly cheated on the test by actively adjusting settings to get through the test method. The others to date haven't been found to have cheated that way. The FCA issue is that the EPA and the Europeans allow vehicles (diesel & gas) by design to emit extra pollution during certain phases of operation like start-up, severe cold weather, heavy loads, etc. All those nasty variables Tom and others keep pointing out. FCA is alleged to not have told EPA about all the situations where its diesels perform this way which they were required to do. Very different than VW. Interestingly the West Virginia guys allegedly made their measurements deliberately under these conditions which would result in the high %s you reference. Like NBC and the exploding GM gas tanks a few years ago you can rig those situations as well. Bottom line, ALL ICE vehicles at some point pollute more in the real world than in the lab.
The Euros by the way have introduced a new tougher test which why we see some manufacturers retreating from diesel for future vehicles.

Back to your water. Samples are taken at EPA specified time intervals, brought back to the lab and the test results are there an hour or so later. In the meantime if a plume of some bad stuff went by, they miss it and its in your tap. Statistics say its a safe risk. Nothing is continuous. Food; bacteria like ecoli take a day or more to culture. By the time they get the results your sprouts are in the supermarket. Recall is the only option, sometime too late. Another risk deemed worth taking.

Vette71: Whether or not you're aware of it, you and I are talking about different things. You're addressing the "letter of the law", and I am in full agreement with you. I agree that if no law is broken, then one should not be punished, as they have not broken the law. [PLEASE RE-READ THIS PARAGRAPH, AS IT INDICATES I ***AGREE*** WITH YOU!!! I.E., NO NEED FOR YOU TO ARGUE THIS POINT!!!]

What **I'm** talking about -- something that's completely different from what you're talking about, and what you don't see -- is the SPIRIT of the law. If the law was written in the spirit of significantly reducing emissions, and the strategy to bring this about was to compel manufacturers' to produce vehicles that do not emit gasses beyond certain levels while operating in the real-world, and the method to determine those real-world emissions, even if ONLY APPROXIMATELY, was to use the current in-lab-only emissions test, then this was a colossal failure. We knows this because:

1) All manufacturers passed the lab emissions test without cheating (with the exception of those built by the Volkswagen/Audi Group, who employed an illegal cheat device), and...

2) All diesel vehicles tested (by the UK government and others) and virtually all gasoline vehicles tested, produced many times the lab-legal levels while operating in the real world.

In other words, the lab test is am absolutely useless metric to determine likely (or even approximate) real-world emissions. The letter of the law was followed by all except VAG. The spirit of the law was violated by virtually every model tested.

I don't know how else I can explain this to you.

Steve, You are correct; Letter of the law versus spirit of the law. Letter of the law equals "The rule of law" upon which the USA is based. Spirit of the law equals "The rule of man", where the whim of whoever is in power at any moment decides. One manufacturer or designer ever knows what is next. Without the test and EPA approval of the system design the diesels you and I own would likely spit out 100 or 200 times what they do now, even belching black soot. With the test that forces some controls and design approval by the EPA, even with a sometime 20% to 40% more emissions than during test conditions, the environment is improved. EPA needs to design a better test under our system of laws.

Finally we have some sort of Justice emerging from this. This has been the largest case of Felony Fraud in human history. These millionaire criminal thiefs swindled millions of people promising something they knew was totally false and could not deliver on. The promise of "clean diesel" was the biggest con job in human history and they knew it. And when scientific analysis determined these criminals were lying their way to $$$ millionaire mansions, Rolls Royce and Bentley carriages, and huge personal bank accounts they then tried to cover it up. Now the sh*t is finally hitting the fan. Light them up, watch them burn.