Are You Considering Purchasing An EV In Spite Of The Horrendous Resale?

Nope. Not. Ever. ICE forever!!

Unlike Captain Kirk here that's the only thing I am purchasing.
Basically, used EVs are an incredible deal, what's not to like?

Not in my foreseeable future. For me, it's not an "EV vs ICE" argument. It's about the most compelling (for me) total package. That package includes a number of factors, such as:
- AWD vs RWD vs FWD
- Comfort
- Performance and handling
- Styling (Whether **I** like it. I don't base my purchase on what you like)
- Level of luxury
- Fit and finish
- Manufacturer's and model's reputation for initial defects, long-term reliability, repair and maintenance incidents and costs, etc.
- Utility
- Purchase price & TCO (total cost of ownership, including operating cost/mile)
- Fuel range and refuelling time
and others.

A big mistake EV lovers make, is they have *THEIR* criteria, *THEIR* values, and EVs appeal to them (which s fine), but they don't realize that the stuff in their head does not define reality, and is therefore not universally applicable to all other humans. Translated into simply-understood English: Just because you love some EV does not mean it's suitable for everyone else.

My hope is that EV fans reread the previous paragraph, over and over and over again, whenever they're about to get on their high-horse to praise the superiority of EVs.

That said, I speculate that likely, sometime before I die, EVs might become the norm for personal transportation.

Yah, yah... EV drivers unlike their ICE counterparts are all selfish inconsiderate pricks...

If Audi had offered you a PHEV Q5 (diesel or gas) with about 30 miles AER would you have taken it? They do have a Q7 TDI PHEV in Europe, too chicken to bring it across the pond, especially now.

vdiv wrote “…Yah, yah... EV drivers unlike their ICE counterparts are all selfish inconsiderate pricks…”

You really do have a very defensive imagination. Note that I did not suggest such a thing. There are YOUR words. Your thoughts. Your argument against it. Your defensiveness.



vdiv also wrote “…If Audi had offered you a PHEV Q5 (diesel or gas) with about 30 miles AER would you have taken it?...”

IF…
- IF the car was *identical* in every other way (including 3.0L diesel performance)
- IF the PHEV option cost the same or less to purchase than the 3,0L diesel variant
- IF I could actually make used of the alleged PHEV EV-only gains without paying an additional 2 or 3 grand to buy/install a home quick-charge station
- IF I got the same or better fuel economy when running in pure diesel mode
- IF I still had the 800+ mile range I enjoy today (even if only in pure diesel mode)

Then YES, I would have got the PHEV variant! But in case you didn’t notice, the *hypothetical* PHEV vehicle you and I describe in our *hypothetical* scenario did not exist when I was shopping for a new car, nor does it exist today. That’s why I got what I got, and not an EV or PHEV.

There you go, TheSteve. Your take is exactly what you ascribe of EV lovers, your way or the highway. Do not stereotype EV folks, they are rather diverse in their needs, wants, takes, etc.

There is nothing hypothetical about the Q7 TDI eTron, it is highly likely that Audi will release a PHEV version of the Q5 as well, now that they have developed the drivetrain. It will not have DC fast charging, while on the road you just refuel it. It recharges overnight or at work from the grid when time is not of concern, or on the road from the engine if you need all-electric operation in town.

vdiv: Again, you are taking it personally and getting defensive. Please note that nowhere do I claim my choice is the “right” one, or that it’s superior, or that others should do as I do. I merely describe what *I* like, and what works for *me*. And you’re getting upset at that! It’s very peculiar behavior.

And in case you didn’t notice, my post of 9/1/2017 3:15:35 PM is a direct response to your hypothetical question directed at me. Do you not see the weirdness in you attacking me because I answered your question, and told you how I would choose, and what I like? And in doing so, you get pissed off? Weird. Just plain weird.

BTW, my objection with (some) EV and PHEV fans is *NOT* in them describing what they like. It’s in their belief that what they like is superior, and others should be following suit because “what I like it better than what you like.” While I’m totally cool with you liking what you like, but I will call out folks who claim superiority, much to their dismay.



Re “…There is nothing hypothetical about the Q7 TDI eTron…”

Try to keep up with the conversation, vdiv. Your mind is wandering.

Please re-read my post VERY carefully, and see *ALL* the qualifiers I specified, under which *I* would buy a PHEV. When you do that, you will notice that a vehicle that matches *ALL* my criteria did not exist when I was buying a car, and it still does not exist today. ALL MY CRITERIA!!! You’re missing that!

The Audi Q7 TDI eTron did not exist when I was shopping for my car. Today, the Audi Q7 TDI eTron does *NOT* match all my criteria.

Can you see how you aren’t even arguing against what I say? You imagine something, and then you argue against what you imagine, while you miss pertinent facts that reveal you’re even not on the same page in the attempted discussion.

Did not use the pronoun "I" once, it's not really about me. Don't worry, I don't get pissed, I get even ;)

You on the other hand used it several times, it appears you are being defensive, don't be. Audi is trying to meet your needs with a PHEV. Sounds like under a rather specific set of requirements you would consider one, that's the topic of the article. Thanks for sharing.

vdiv wrote “…[I] Did not use the pronoun “I” once, it’s not really about me…”

You exhibit the classic dual traits of (1) **NOT** taking ownership of your thoughts and actions (by avoiding “I” statements, such as “I feel…” or “I believe…”), and (2) by projecting your beliefs upon others (e.g., you imagine something, attribute it to another, and then argue against it – a dissociative behavior).

So yeah, your arguments are about you. They’re about your defensiveness (which you project onto others); your need for others to see you as being right (rather than being okay with people having different values and preferences than you); your belief in PHEV’s superiority, and getting upset when someone disagrees with you. These are all “taking it personally” / “all about me (vdiv)” items. You could be a lot happier if you could shift your mind from taking things personally, by learning how to be okay with people being different from you (i.e., not taking diversity personally, as though it were an attack on your person).

I don’t believe you’re trolling. I don’t believe you are acting with malice. I do believe these are just characteristics of your way of thinking, and symptoms of your frustration with interpersonal differences.



vdiv also wrote “…Audi is trying to meet your needs with a PHEV…”

This is not factually correct. Audi has not consulted *ME*, therefore, they are unaware of *MY* needs (NOTE: I do not claim they should). In reality, Audi makes mass-market vehicles, just like virtually every other automaker on the planet! They attempt to anticipate mass-market trends, and then they create products that they believe will have mass-market appeal. Like every other automaker, they know their products will *NOT* meet every individual’s needs, likes, and dislikes. This is normal, and a realistic approach. However, it is *VERY* different from your assertion to the contrary.


I’m exiting this “exchange.”

Most of the current EVS on the market are first generation ones with very limited range = and use old battery technology - batteries that would cost thousands to replace. ANd that is WHAT's not to like"

We do not know how big the market for used EVS - because we have very few more modern ones - and they are in a controlled market by Tesla right now - However - you will find that unless you trade in TO Tesla - the outside companies don't want your car. THe inability for a dealership to service their own vehicles is a BIG minus - when your alternative is not an outside transmission rebuilder - it is the COMPANY that made the vehicles and will not even provide a way to reset a computer to other sellers.

And no - ICE - is not the answer - they could be PART of the answer - but there are simply TOO many problems with charging that will have to be overcome - especially in URBAN areas - before they can take be used by a LOT of people. THey are NOT an answer for me - nor would I want one.

EVs from here on out (2 TM3 in waiting). I am open to all EV offerings, but so far only Tesla fits the requirements - RWD or AWD, good looking, good performance, quick charge network and OTA updates. I hope to see more serious EV choices in the near future (2020 and beyond).

Resale value is not a primary concern. If the car itself is desirable, resale value will not suffer, especially if the car is designed to last a long time in the case of Tesla.

I still hold on to an ICE sports car for short drives on the weekend but will be NET emission-free by next year (solar + powerwall + EVs).

"Resale value is not a primary concern"...

Trust fund; or 'Overseas Parents' squirreling away money in US; or what?

If its your money and "resale value is not a primary concern" in all aspects of your life, its possible you are squandering your money.

Unless you are elderly and have lots of money, perhaps you should pay more attention to the resale value? Its goes quickly and unless you have a means to churn it back into your coffers, it ain't coming back.

I'm not suggesting you are a professional athlete but consider this statistic...

"According to a 2009 Sports Illustrated article, 78% of National Football League (NFL) players are either bankrupt or are under financial stress within two years of retirement and an estimated 60% of National Basketball Association players go bankrupt within five years after leaving their sport."

OK, financial lecture for the day is complete.

@mre30: Read the whole paragraph before commenting will you ? "Resale value is not a primary concern ... especially if the car is designed to last a long time in the case of Tesla."

"If its your money... " - of course it is mre30, and you should worry about your own money instead of mine.

FYI, I earn it the hard way by working my butt off. I don't cheat on taxes and don't try to find loop holes to avoid taxes either - something I'm sure you know very well as an accountant who cook the book for a living.

Resale is never a consideration when I buy a car. Drive it to it dies or you have to "old yeller" it.

EVs are definitely being considered, but I'm waiting on that two motor Model 3, and probably $60k price.

Sadly, I'm slightly delusional for waiting for a manufacturer(. . . Subaru) to release a compact performance wagon with a manual. I waited & did not jump on a RS4 Avant.

Given how many EVs are on short leases, grab one on lease return. At auction, you'd be stunned by what the Fiat 500e goes for. We've grabbed one here and there and resold them.

There was a very informative article from December 2012 on the EPA website. Written by the ICCT (International Council on Clean Transportation with inputs from Deloitte, J.D.Power, CARB, Boston Consulting) it covers a broad spectrum of questions on EV adoption. Surveys that were conducted covered responses from 13,000 people in 17 countries.

Sadly EV sales are not keeping up with the projections made back in 2012. However, the major barriers identified in the report remain the same today: (a) Price; (b) Range; (c) Recharge Time; and (d) Infrastructure

Price was indeed the biggest obstacle to EV adoption and appears to remain that way today. I was surprised how big an obstacle price appeared to be. Even if the prices were the same only two-thirds of respondents would consider an EV purchase. If the price difference was just $2,000 the acceptance level dropped to about 10% on average for all 17 countries in the survey. Germany was the highest at 17%. With the EV premiums actually over $10,000, you can guess what the response would have been.

Consumer attitudes seem little changed since 2012. They may be actually even worse today. One factor identified in the report is how government policies could actually be hurting EV adoption. As the automakers are pushed to make their fleets more fuel efficient, consumers see less benefit in buying an EV especially when you add in the current low prices for gasoline and diesel fuel.

However, the bottom line of the report forecasted only 2-4% market penetration for EVs in the countries they surveyed. To achieve even that level of absorption, government incentive programs needed to remain in place or improve. That support in 2017 is now waning. At the same time manufacturers are being pressured to build more EVs, the unpopular incentive programs are being cut back or eliminated.

Government mandates were not covered, but vocal citizen support that appears to be backing government mandates in countries like Great Britain, France, Germany, India, and China will ultimately fail unless consumers back the ideas with actual purchases. Only China may be in a position to force EV sales by denying registrations to ICE cars. Those types of actions in other countries would be highly unlikely to succeed.

Elon Musk and Tesla have taken a stance of "if we build them, they will sell." While that may have been true in the beginning due to low volumes of production and the novelty, Tesla is about to learn that the mass market is a completely different animal than the niche market they have dominated. Growing inventories of unsold cars tell the story.

Buyers to date have been wealthy, owned multiple vehicles, and were seemingly less concerned about pricing or gas savings. That is all about to change. To reach mass market penetration the Model 3 must appeal to single car households. Will it?

It won't. A single-car household is likely to be very tight for discretionary income. That will make a Camry by far the better choice over a Tesla 3.

mre30: *BIG* +1!

Your post describes the world today, and it explains why we see what we see with respect to weak EV and PHEV market share.

In the future, that scenario might change. For example, if PHEVs become less expensive to purchase and WAY less expensive to operate than ICE, and they have comparable (or much longer) range, then PHEV road trips became a non-issue and we are likely to see a change in consumer buying patterns that reflect this new reality. I believe PHEV sales would explode under those new conditions.

read the article "Tesla continues to be the exception, for the flip side of many of those same reasons. Tesla, with long driving-range ratings for its models, less (if any) dependence on incentives, and a well-developed network of Supercharger hardware—as well as perks like over-the-air updates—does better on resale value than its gasoline competitors."

Tesla disruption continues.