Is Tesla INCREASING People's Passion For Autos Or Is It KILLING That Lust?

It's just another car company... but it sure has created a cult-like following that makes the most rabid Apple fanatics look indifferent by comparison ;-)

People who are comfortable with ICE engines and/or resistant to changes hate Tesla, as it is against everything that they know about cars. Usually, these people can only blah blah blah about how the company is not making money, fervently wishing the it goes out of business. These people, Tesla is perhaps killing the lust for.

Some other people embrace the technology and, well, you know those already.

I'm against Tesla because they suck off the government's teat but cannot turn a profit. I also find their business ethics reprehensible to criminal.

fanboys like the authors of this comment and the story dont like cars. they just like talking about the product of the fake tony stark. no one who loves cars even thinks about tesla

Tesla has single handedly given new passion to MDarringer, he's still using all of his sock puppet names to up vote his own comments and down vote those he disagrees with. Have some gator aid, old time trumper.

I like the tech...the fit and finish is garbage, the design is uninspired/generic and until they get to a 500 mile range with a 15 minute charge infrastructure nationwide it's more of a novelty than an ICE replacement.

Tesla is challenging notions of what cars should be and is pushing the entire market forward ($50B+ committed to EV investment by the legacy manufacturers, and the number is growing). Most Tesla owners are passionate about their cars to say the least, so I think for now the passion is growing for the automotive world.

That being said, Tesla is also ushering in the world of cars with autonomous features that you can actually buy. Over time, that may greatly impact how people think about cars, and it will be a mixed bag. Likely there will be a ton of industry consolidation, less variety, and a lot more practicality worked into vehicles without the need for drivers... traditional cars and driving may become niche over time. Sounds crazy now, but all roads seem to be pointed in that direction, just a matter of time.

Oh Nonsense - real real Nonsense

THere is LITTLE in a Tesla that is different from what all cars have

They all have steering wheels - tires - brakes - seats - a body - a chassis - and among the great majority of the parts in a Tesla are LITTLE different if at all from those of any other car on the road.

Ask all the Owners of BASE MODEL 3s how well their cars run and handle - !
They will tell you they don't have one yet - and it appears as Tesla manages to bring out another higher priced one - that they will not see them anytime in the near future.

As far as the autonomous features - the idea that these came only from Tesla is also not true - starting with Anti-lock brakes as one beginning - we have had adaptive speed control for years - lane indicators as well - putting these together was just another software program that even TESLA admits requires a driver to be in position to take over in case of problems. (THat is in their warranty)

And the problem is - Teslas cannot be the force for change until they can make a car that the average consumer can actually afford to purchase - and they do not currently do that. No one makes an EV profitably that can do that - and that is WAY OFF into the future - probably requiring battery systems of the future - since Lithium supplies are already getting scarce and going UP in price. They don't even sell a Model 3 for less than $45,000 a price level that most Americans cannot afford to purchase at- and WELL above the rest of the world especially The three highest population countries.

And as long as there are no affordable EVs on the market -ie - in the $20,000 range - the EV is a rich man's way to say they are green sometime - as they probably have another ICE Crossover in their garage. And the EV will simply be another option - not a game changer.

I'm with TomM. Tesla is providing cars to holier-than-thou people who want to appear to be doing something for the environment, but not really do anything, so the solution is to buy a $100K car.

Antilock breaks and lane indicators are like autonomy level -1. I would argue the first level of true autonomous driving is a car that can manage 100% of steering and speed controls. Tesla beat out everyone in that regards by years and the latest V9 release is a still 1-2 years ahead of what Mercedes, Nissan, and Cadillac currently offer. Even to this day, no other car you can buy can do autonomous lane changes. Tesla has been offering that for 3 years. How many other cars can you move with your phone with no people inside the car? 0. Tesla has allowed that for 2 years.

When you look at car UI/UX design, nobody is even close. OTA updates? Tesla has been doing them since 2012. Direct to consumer sales model, again Tesla has been pushing that and that seems like the model other manufacturers will take with EVs.

Even small things like the start button which is completely unnecessary in EVs. Tesla got rid of it in 2012, eliminating billions of redundant steps of turning an EV on/off. How many other cars have no start/stop button? 0.

The only nonsense is how blindsided traditional automakers are on what is about to happen. They are not ready for the change that Tesla is bringing to the industry.

What change is that - Promise everything but ONLY supply the highest price units?

The points you make are not true
- Super Cruise was rated higher than Tesla already by respected reviewers
- That stuff about their Direct sales model is the opposite of being correct - because that MODEL is something that is ANTI- Customer. When you have only one price - you eliminate competition between dealers - where the customer benefits greatly - where spare parts are not priced like diamonds - and of course - the GREAT advantage of having LOTS of dealers is local sales and service - where you are not requiring a return to TESLA to get your computer reset - because TEsla has not allowed others to access their computers even though YOU bought the car.This is a major disadvantage when the customer is paying. Imagine being in an accident 200 miles away from the nearest Tesla Service Center - and AFTER you have the car fixed by a reputable agency - Tesla decides that they did not meet their requirements(THey do not accept using used parts for instance) - and so they refuse to reset your computer. IT has happened already.
- At what time is eliminating the Start/Stop switch or ignition switch a great Breakthrough - it is not. Whoopee

ANd you still have not addressed the point of my post - that Tesla has yet to make a car that is affordable by the Masses of people. Until they do that - they are not a game changer - they are simply a rich person's toy.

- Super Cruise was rated higher than Tesla already by respected reviewers

Not in terms of technology or functionality. They were only higher rated because it is more difficult to be distracted while using super cruise.


- That stuff about their Direct sales model is the opposite of being correct - because that MODEL is something that is ANTI- Customer. When you have only one price - you eliminate competition between dealers - where the customer benefits greatly - where spare parts are not priced like diamonds - and of course - the GREAT advantage of having LOTS of dealers is local sales and service - where you are not requiring a return to TESLA to get your computer reset - because TEsla has not allowed others to access their computers even though YOU bought the car.

To reset a Tesla computer, you literally just press both steering wheel buttons for 5 seconds. With regular OTE updates and no traditional dealers, the consumer doesn't have to pay for or be inconvenienced with software upgrades.


This is a major disadvantage when the customer is paying. Imagine being in an accident 200 miles away from the nearest Tesla Service Center - and AFTER you have the car fixed by a reputable agency - Tesla decides that they did not meet their requirements(THey do not accept using used parts for instance) - and so they refuse to reset your computer. IT has happened already.
- At what time is eliminating the Start/Stop switch or ignition switch a great Breakthrough - it is not. Whoopee
ANd you still have not addressed the point of my post - that Tesla has yet to make a car that is affordable by the Masses of people. Until they do that - they are not a game changer - they are simply a rich person's toy.

$36k after rebates is affordable to most, and most people live well within 200 miles of a Tesla service center. Heck, I have 8 within 50 miles,

Its Tesla news, every minute of every day 24/7, overload that drives me nuts. Is it a car company or a soap opera...sometimes its hard to tell the difference.

The last three posts say it all.

TeslaSpies™

SaJoseDriver, Cadillac has an autonomous drive option that is better than Tesla's.
Other manufacturers will too. Autonomous driving does not really help the argument for passion for driving.

No, it is not far better. It manages attention differently, but in terms of performance on roads and feature-set, it is not even close. The big pro is you do not need to put your hands on the wheel since an IR camera tracks your face. You can't do lane changes, summon, you are GPS limited on when you can use it (Autopilot works even on city streets with a lead car). It is also not easily upgradeable.

I would like to add one more thing

This constant emphasis on Tesla from the AGENTS in this group is rapidly KILLING the desire to actually come here.

Tesla represent only a small fraction of the cars that Ford or GM make and yet - it would seem that Tesla produces more than half the cars in the world the way the agents see it. IF Tesla came out with the New Chevy Blazer - we would be inundated with constant posts about it - as a Tesla - but apparently not as a GM product.

And there are still dozens more car companies that produce more cars than Tesla, actually make a profit which is Tesla fails at , that are almost NEVER mentioned here as well.

The fact is - just as the average person cannot afford a Ferrari - they also cannot afford a Tesla - they have NO place to conveniently charge and EV from any company - and we STILL do not have the Electric Generation Capacity to support the sale of all of these projected EVs as well.

As some point you have to wonder HOW MUCH (Not if) the AGENTS are getting paid by Tesla to keep their name in the news.

Most negative opinions expressed on this site come from admitted Tesla haters and clueless people brainwashed by the fossil-fuel industries propaganda, amplified by their multi-personalities and blind biases.

In reality, the vast majority of people who have first hand experience with Tesla cars or who have listened to reasons would have a very different set of opinions. Real people are a lot smarter when it comes to making important decisions such as purchasing a car they will use for many years. The increasing sales numbers speak louder than any detractor could.

"real people" "intelligent" like the others don't have legitimate issues with EVs and Tesla? The Tesla situation has parallels to a B school case on the Concorde SST that was done right right as sales started. The marketing manager for the Concorde was in the room. After examining all the factors around the plane including range, weight limits, operating cost, etc. etc. the class concluded, much to manager's chagrin, that the plane was only practical as an executive shuttle across the Atlantic. At that, governments had to force BA and AF to take the planes. Right now EV's and Tesla in particular, are expensive commuter vehicles or vehicles for local trips of a few hours for the wealthy. That's what they are currently practical for. Regular Joes, the other 90% of the population that commutes,has a single vehicle, etc. intelligently decides that EVs/Tesla don't fit their needs.

You are apparently oblivious to the disruptive effect of Tesla. It is in its final phase with the wide adoption of the Model 3, even at its lofty ASP of $60K. This number is going down with the new release of the Mid Range version, a precursor to the long anticipated Short Range.

You can refuse to accept the Tesla effect, but you cannot deny the facts that people are buying the cars and the mission behind it, also the facts that other automakers are being pushed hard to enter the competition knowing that they have to endure short term pain in transitioning from ICE to EV.

Instead of the Concorde lesson, why not try the success story of SpaceX, another company run by Musk ? They managed to reduce cost of space launch by an order of magnitude and outperformed the industry titans (Lockheed and Boeing). Who in the aerospace business could have believed that before it happened ?

Tesla does have an effect, but on a limited market that happens to be those that can afford the high entry price, and the limits imposed by charging time and locations plus the range. As many of us on the site have said, give us an EV that has 400+ mile range, A RECHARGE TIME less than 15 minutes, at a competitive price and we are in. EVs don't have that, so for our needs EVs don't work. That happens to represent the vast majority of vehicle buyers at the moment.

Remember Space X is a private company and we know nothing about it's profitability. Its largest customer is the government, which doesn't have the same buying criteria as a consumer. Even EV's to date have to depend on government incentives to sell their products. That says a lot about how people
see them in their buying decision.

Actually - that is not true either

THe problem is - for some reason those enamoured by Tesla see REAL problems with EVs in general as nonsense - and ignore the realities of them as well.

IF you do not have a House and a Charging station installed in the house - and CANNOT do that - EVs are simply a real problem. If you live in a third story walkup in NYC with only street parking- or even in the Many more than Thousands of Apartment complexes around the country and do not OWN your parking space - you must depend on public charging stations - THis is the majority of people in virtually all cities for instance. The need to use public charging stations makes EVs unreliable as transportation - because you cannot know if the station will be available to you when you need it - and there are FEW stations to begin with. It remains that there is NO infrastructure to meet the demand right now -not to mention that in many Eastern and Western Large coastal cities - there is not enough generation capacity to meet demand during the day in hot weather already - this is a major problem that cannot be overcome by any EV right now. If you live further out from the suburbs and have a long commute - you might need a charging while you are working as well - and they do not exist in the numbers that would be required.

For those of us who travel(ed) long distances from customer to customer and stayed out during the week - an EV is simply not an option. As I have pointed out -I can easily drive to Florida from Central NJ - in my case straight through in 18 hours. If I had to stop every 300 miles for even a 6 hour charge(and they are longer for full charges) - I would have no time in Florida before I would have to return here.

And yes - ALL Evs get preferential Tax treatment - and until that stops - and EVS are priced based on real gross profit margins of ICE cars - where the Base Model 3 that cost Tesla over $30,000 to build would list at near $48,000 - we will not know what type of market that evs have.

As far as protecting oil - that will not go away - because we will need the natural gas to generate electricity to power these EVS. Solar - wind - etc - are simply not producing enough to make a dent - and they are taking Nuclear power plants off line. And - even considering normal replacement cycles (People continue to keep their cars longer) - it will be 30-50 years before EVs could take half the market. By then - the ones who made no profits on their first vehicles and did not have ICE Profits to back them up - will be selling hopelessly outdated vehicles - and won't have the money to bring out new ones.

And as far as other companies making EVs - they remain a NICHE market - and a NON-Profitable one at that. It will be years before they will be equal to the profits in ICE Vehicles. The cost of Lithium - projected to go down by Tesla - has actually gone up substantially - and mining Lithium is an environmental Hazard as well. It will take a battery

Utter NONSENSE about range and charging - this type of FUD has been dispelled by Tesla supercharging network a long time ago. As for adoption, nobody says EVs is for everyone - but it's good enough for those who are willing to try.

Your statement "As far as protecting oil - that will not go away - because we will need the natural gas to generate electricity to power these EVS" is another example of your ignorance.

The US is a net exporter of natural gas while ranking 2nd (behind China) in oil import. Oil as a source of energy for transportation is far less efficient than EV using electricity generated by natural gas. The US Department of Energy has a lot of data to back this up - you need to look it up to inform yourself.

The current events involving the Saudis show that the US, behind the coward POTUS and his Republican cronies, will forsake its principles as a defender of freedom and justice so that it can sell arms to the Saudis and keep cheap oil flowing. All in the name of "national security", or in other words, corporate profits.

I hope you descendants think differently about oil. If not, good luck to you all.

In case you haven't read the news, Citron, one of the most ardent Tesla shorts, has change its tune. Read on below:

https://insideevs.com/citron-tesla-short-reverses-course-long/

“People who are making their current car choices are moving away from other brands. – It is not just pent-up demand from people on the reservation list. If it were pent-up demand, those car classes wouldn’t be exhibiting such sharp declines year over year. TSLA is not just pulling customers from BMW and Mercedes but also from Toyota and Honda. Like a magic trick, while everyone is focused on Elon smoking weed, he is quietly smoking the whole automotive industry.”

Utter BS

It's not Tesla killing passion for autos. It is caused by many factors. Urbanization. Uber. Crazy congestion. High cost of ownership (depreciation, insurance, maintenance, parking).

For someone born today a car will just be a gadget like an iPhone. Driving a sports car will become an obscure weekend hobby for eccentric wealthy people.

To SanJoseDriver and EVisNow, if Tesla is such a success, take away the federal and state tax incentives. The cars only sell at the current subsidized prices which are still lofty and the company is still losing. My tax money is being thrown down a well.
Take away the subsidies and price these vehicles to make margins in line with the industry and sales drop to nearly zero. Musk is effectively dumping cars on the market to enrich himself by the inflated stock prices.

It's absurd to keep complaining about tax incentives. Tesla doesn't get any preferential treatment - all EVs get the same deal. If the deals are so good, why don't other companies follow suit and make EVs that people want to buy.

The bigger question you should ask is, what happens to ICE if all the oil subsidies go away ? My tax dollars over the last 30+ years have been spent on protecting the oil sources from the middle east. How many times has the US waged wars in this region to keep the Saudis happy ? How many lives have been lost to this cause ? It's about time you pull your head out of the Saudi sand, or its proverbial ass.

If Elon Musk would get out of the way, I might have respect for Tesla.

Me too

MD > You need to be politically correct. #MeTOO

hehe

EVisNow, it is obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. We were discussing Tesla. You ranted that Tesla is the best company. If the cars are so successful they should not need a $10,000 price cut courtesy of the US government.
In additional, Tesla is selling its cars at a loss. If a Chinese company did this they would be charged with dumping.

And the tax breaks that oil companies receive are for exploration and technology. The result has been new sources of domestic oil (such as shale) that were not available. This helps keeps the cost oil in check and makes us less reliant on an unstable region.

The incentives for oil dwarf those for EVs. Oh, and Tesla is now profitable. Gross margin is 20% on the Model 3, ramping to 25%. Even without the incentive, the cars will now be profitable.

http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/725970e6-eda5-47ab-96e1-422d4045f799

Your argument is nonsensical. How many ICE cars get a $10,000 subsidy?

The subsidy comes at the pump, compared to less subsidized gas prices, the US government is discounting everyone's gas by $1k/year or so by giving generous tax incentives to oil producers. Let's see gas go to $7-8/gallon and see whether people will still choose ICE over an EV (even without the $7500 federal subsidy).

Too hypothetical. Again, I will try to keep this simple for you, the tax breaks for oil companies are for exploration and developing which benefits more than just autos.
You are suggesting the money is going directly to the gas pump.
You should understand that the investment in infrastructure to support a large fleet of EVs would be trillions for what, a nominal effect on pollution?
Other automakers are indeed developing EVs but in intentionally limited numbers as there is not a sustainable business case to be made.

Tesla just proved there is a business case to be made. Investing in EVs would be far beyond a nominal effect on pollution, they are better cars that will lead to greater safety and autonomy going forward.