Lexus to Target German Performance Sector

"hybrid engines as a “power boost”"

Says it all,Hybrids are Performance oriented with the benifit/bonus of fuel efficiency.

And as by the Hyndai in another blog,the Hybrid will become the industries's standard by 2010.


JUGNU

So far the Hybrid approach in the performance sedans has not given any significant boost in mileage.

I agree with Well..GS450h blew away both V8's from Audi and MB while maintaining highest milage.

Sheepdog

Nicehomer, the GS didn't blow anything away in that comparison except for the Audi, and that's because the Audi was V8-powered.

The GS was up to par with the E420 CDI. It beat the E-Class in city fuel economy. Outside of the city, the E-Class pretty much took the lead when it comes to gas mileage.

yet the A6 was rated higher than the GS in that test wasn't it?

Yes. Will seems to look through that.

I can see why he'd like some of the other Lexus cars so much (IS, LX, LS, for instance), but the GS is by no means a class-leader.

Willis, Audi wasn't the only car w/a V8. So was MB.
lexus GS450h was the only V6 and rest a V8.

Still, it was the fastest and the most fuel efficient in general.

The E-Class had a V8 diesel as opposed to the Audi's gasoline V8. That means the diesel V8 of the E-Class will be more fuel efficient than the gasoline V8 of the Audi.

"Was it its suspension? If it was, that just proves the article was crap."

They HATED the suspension- not because it was too soft, but oddly, because it was way too harsh. Lexus tried to make a performance sedan out of the GS hybrid. They don't know how to make a suspension that's the perfect compromise of sport and luxury, which is an art for Audi, BMW and Mercedes. The GS hybrid was built to be a fast luxury sedan- and that's what it will remain.

I think that the only reason you think it's biased is because the Lexus didn't win. I can't remember the last time a Lexus won a comparo. Does that make you think all magazines are biased?

You are wrong Will,

the comparison wasn't about fuel economy only, that was just an adition to see whats waht.

The comparision was about the whole cars, this is where the Lexus failed.
It's ride was far to harsh, it's cornering performance was by far not up to par with the merc and the audi and the price was to high.

If you go back and do some research on that article, it will say on the thick bold letter on the very top:

most fuel efficient engine comparo. Now having said that Germans knew they would get their ass kicked so they obviously changed the method and scoring to give Lexus GS450h last place. If they stuck with primary goal of the testing..Outcome would have been GS450h a sure winner.

sheepdog

I have a GS450h and really like it. It's weirdly quiet but they don't know when you are coming or going, lol.

Second.

As an Electrical Engineer, I find hybrid systems to be awesome. Only problem is, although they are interesting/hi-tech, they are just more componentry on a vehicle. Rule #1 of electronic systems is they mess up. Also, those batteries are REALLY expensive and even if they are great batteries, chances are the car (especially a Lexus) will outlast the batteries (which means a costly replacement). I would like to see German manufacturers make hybrids, but I would also like to see the Germans improve mileage without heavy/complicated hybrid systems. This would include direct injection (like Mercedes' new cone direct injection), cylinder de-activation, electric water pumps (with de-activation), etc.

wow someone who actually knows what they're talking about and doesn't just spew fanboy bullshit has finally posted an intelligent comment on autospies! That's a FIRST

first, the hybrid electrical systems have proven to have excellent reliability.
second, all of your proposals for incresing fuel economoy are complicated systems with just as much chance of breaking as a hybrid.
third, battery life has proven, after 7(?) years of hybrids to still be a non-issue.

1970toyotamarc I agree in general the battey lifespan is not much of an issue. But Toyota has had its fair share of harness issues in the Prius, which are soldered to the entire battery pack. These tend to corrode and could be fixed by simply attaching a new harness.

However the problem is Toyota does not sell the harness; they only stock the entire battery pack. So this would necessitate the entire battery pack to be replaced when a simple repair could be performed by a competent mechanic and a soldering gun. The Toyota dealership will not perform this kind of service due to liability issues so you still end up with a big repair bill.

Why, Agent009 do you think you are the only rocket scientist to figure that shit out? huh???
Why are you so Goddamn smart that you figured out that shit but not 100% dedicated hybrid engineers working on this hybrid shit for the past several years? Why are you so damn special??? How do you propheticize amount of repair bill is going to cost? HUHHHHH? Have you driven or owned a hybrid? Many folks have. Guess what Agent 009, it has set a record as having highest satisfaction rating ever..and still hold that accolade. How can you tell us that you somehow figured out some bulllllshit about corrosion crap due to soldering some bullshit wires so therefore you are saying prius is facing a liability issues huhhhhhh 009????????????????
What do you really know about hybrid, 009??? Not a damn thing except guessing and hopefully you are right.
geezzeeee, okay, I'm done. Feel much better:)


sheepdog

boy, deviate from the Toyota gospel in here and you're pounced on good. you guys are scary.

1970toyotamarc,

The batteries in hybrids are cool batteries, no doubt. If, and I state, if they go out, they are expensive. The other systems I mentioned are much cheaper alternatives to hybrids:

Active Fuel Management: about $300-500 per engine, not too complicated electronics/subsystems

Water pump shutoff (can be either belt driven or electric driven): Just needs to know the temp of the engine for its on/off properties.

etc,etc,etc

--I still would like to see German/US automakers get more heavily vested in hybrid though.

neutral,

I still would like to see German/US automakers get more heavily vested in hybrid though. <---They have been are still are. German's MB, Chrysler and BMW all have joined hands on a single hybrid system. Its still at works at the present time. Theirs are somethinglike a 2 stage hybrid system and claiming already even before coming out to the market "Betterthan anything Japanese" already..We'll see about that. Anyhow, Volvo also has a hybrid on the works for their trucks. Audi supposed to have a hybrid as an option for Q7 but that was a no-go. Few other small companys are working on the hybrid in the European sector. Koreans are also working on one..but as in Ford's hybrid system and Nissan's new altima hybrid..its actually a Toyota Hybrid system underbeneath. Honda may have cameout with a Hybrid first in the market place w/insight..but Toyota has taken control of the solid lead at this time.

I read about the Mercedes/BMW/GM hybrid system. It is supposed to be more advanced (and more efficient) than the Toyota system. Here is a somewhat decent link: http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7145-1-442663-1-0-0-0-0-0-9-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html

sorry about the long address

Battery battery battery.

(1) Battery is warrateed to 10 yr/150K miles in CA. How is your transmission' warranty? Is it going to last that long? How much will it cost for a new transmission? $3000? I know my friends' BMW 323 needs a new tranny at 55K. Costed him $5000 out of pocket.
(2) When my battery go (should it ever happen), I will go to eBay and buy me an used one for $500. Plug-n-play. Can you say the same thing about a new transmission? By the way, that will be 8 years later from now. I won't lose sleep over it.
(3) There is no transmission on a Prius. Only planetary gear set. Very simple and reliable.

I have owned my Prius for 2 years. Zero defects and problems. Sure, two recalls done. But nothing important really. For such a complex system of software and hardware colaboration, I have got to give credits to Toyota. Job well done! By the way, I got 46 life time MPG. That is about 3X of my BMW 540iA (life time 16MPG) same commute routes.

Thank You, Ceric! Ceric go educate Agent009, please...I had it with that bullshit commentary he wrote, something about soldering a wire to his nipples and his left nuts to a battery or something..anyhow..great comment again, Ceric!




sheepdog

lol

"Lexus has always done things differently than the Germans" = this program will fail. You can't expect people to take a high-performance car seriously that has disconnected steering, bad brakes, and rolls through corners.

This unfortunately describes all Lexus vehicles. They might be very nice cars, but Lexus drive "cheap" to me...my father's GS rides like a Buick Roadmaster.

Thank you for saying that.

Or, instead of getting an LS460 why not just get a Buick Lucerne and buy some stock with the money saved and take the kids to Knotts Berry Farm in Buena Park, Ca.

I totally agree. For the amount you pay, Buick's really are just as good of cars, especially given that to people who really know about cars, Lexus has no image.

I mean the Buick has voice activated nav, nice leather, and a smooth ride. I've always thought Lexus buyers should cross shop with Buick more.

Lexus cannot make a successful performance division. In the early ninties Toyota tried to launch Lexus as a direct competitor to the German luxury makers and have never been successful in that market.

Unless of course you count having countless manufacturing awards, the un-equalled reliability prowess, and a high percentage of repeat buyers. Oh, they also won Motor Trend's first SUV of the year award with the RX. Lexus has also been first to market with many techno-features. I think they do have the highest sales of any luxury maker in the U.S. as well.

Hmm. Maybe, just maybe, it is the people at Lexus that know what they are doing; and it is the Euro-only idiots that post here that don't have a clue.

Don't you know "Germans are the best because they have been around for a 110 years" ;).

I agree with kart germans been around for how long (early 1900's).....and the japanese been around for how long (late 1980's).

"I agree with kart germans been around for how long (early 1900's).....and the japanese been around for how long (late 1980's)."

This is only for luxury division only.

Wrong, Datsun/Nissan has been around since your grandfather was wearing diaper while sucking on a pacifier.


sheepdog

you are SO wrong.

the Supra is one of the favorites for Tuners. they have consistently gotten 600 - 800 RELIABLE hp out of that motor because it is so tough. some have even pushed it to 1000+ hp. (way up there, yeah, it will need more "maintenance")

the Supra was pulled from the U.S. market only due to the high cost of insuring them, which drastically affected sales. it continued to sell in japan a while longer.

one more thing, the feeling and soul u get with each product.

Yes, you are referring to a Japanese Battleship Yamato, lead ship of a class of two 65,000-ton (over 72,800-tons at full load) battleships, was built at Kure, Japan.

She and her sister, Musashi were by far the largest battleships ever built, even exceeding in size and gun caliber (though not in weight of broadside) the U.S. Navy's abortive Montana class.

Their nine 460mm (18.1-inch) main battery guns, which fired 1460kg (3200 pound) armor piercing shells, were the largest battleship guns ever to go to sea, and the two ships' scale of armor protection was also unsurpassed.

Commissioned in December 1941, just over a week after the start of the Pacific war, Yamato served as flagship of Combined Fleet commander Isoroku Yamamoto during the critical battles of 1942.

During the latter action, she was attacked several times by U.S. Navy aircraft, and fired her big guns in an engagement with U.S. escort carriers and destroyers off the island of Samar.

she was assigned to take part in the suicidal "Ten-Go" Operation, a combined air and sea effort to destroy American naval forces supporting the invasion of Okinawa. On 7 April 1945, while still some 200 miles north of Okinawa, Yamato was attacked by a massive force of U.S. carrier planes and sunk like a rock.

In conclusion, battleships Yomato and Musashi was Largest and most powerful SOB ever built for Naval Fleet in the history of mankind, period. It only surpasses by a modern aircraft carriers in size, which includes CVN class (nuclear powered ships). The US battleship named Missouri was the last survivor of these giant ships designed to sail along with aircraft carrier while in battle group. It was last used in war againest first Iraq war, I believe. Battle Group means a fleet of ships sailing together for the best protection during the war..I believe it is changed to Carrier Group now..Anyhow, Germans also had a Giant Battleship built almost comparable in Yomato and Musashi's massive scale which both were torn into pieces by good ole American bombers just like Yomato's fate. btw, World's first underwater Torpedos were actually built by a Korean ship named "kubuksun" literally translated to a turtleship. Which was armored with steel plates on the top..Very unique and one of the kind at that time period. The Koreans also invented first shoulder fired projectiled weapon ala AT4 which was used in the sea battle..first ever. Either way, Germans and Japanese got their ass handed down eventually.

The way it works is this:
Romans copied someone else ? name ?, Germans copied Romans, American copied and improved Germany's war machines, Japanese copied Germans and Americans, now China and Koreans are doing samething to Japanese what they have done to Americans in short. copy copy copy..damn

sheepdog

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/japan/japsh-xz/yamato.htm

Bottom picture is pretty awesome..Its the Battleship Yomato doing evasive manevers while getting bombed probably by American Torpedo Bombers "Avengers". Could have had same effect if we dropped boxes of quarter pounder w/cheese and kill all Japanese with athroscrosis/high blood pressure by loading up their bloodstream with American Beef animal Fat.

while on the subject of japanese wwII tech, they also had a torpedo that was FAR superior to any other navy's. and a submarine that could cross the pacific, launch and recover a plane, and return to japan without refueling.

unlike in the u.s., after the war all their engineering brainpower was applied to bikes and cars, instead of tanks, missiles and planes.

hence, their now WORLD BEATING auto industry.

to clarify: in the u.s., the very BEST engineers went to R&D in the defense industries, where the pay was best. detroit got the SECOND RATE engineers.

in japan, their auto, electronics, and optics industries got their FIRST RATE engineers.

not sure what industries the first rate engineers in europe went to. maybe a few got into autos. apparently none went to QUALITY CONTROL in the actual manufacturing plants.

Lexus has potential in this sector but will they have what it takes to make their models drive like a Euro-tanker is the question. There is no doubt in my mind they will have some extremely fast cars that is a given. However will they be able to make the car handle, feel, drive, like an AMG/M/RS or will they fall short and have the L-tuned just another fast Toyota engine.

when japanese motorcycles started coming out with high output engines, there was a similar argument.

yeah, they were fast in a straight line, but they can't "handle" like the euro bikes.

for many years now, there has absolutely NO CAUSE anymore for faulting japanese bikes. (other than their being able to give the buyer more, for less money. a "fault" ONLY to competitors unable to compete.)

given time, the japanese will repeat that with cars.

nicehomer, another thing the Japanese did during WWII was to take people like Chinese and Filipinos and put them in a fenced in area and then they would throw hand grenades or airplanes would drop bombs near them and then the Japanese medics would rush to save the the victims and that's one method the Japanese would use to train for war.

that's awesome! Love them japs!

nicehomer, it was not cool and Wilco we've heard plenty what the Nazi's did, but not much about the Japanese.

Damn it,I wish someone could make me in charge of performance for Lexus LOL,I'd turbo charge all of the Lexus models,add a six speed manual gear box,LSD rear end,stiffer suspension,large brembo brakes,high flow exhaust system ,and nice BBS wheels,but I'll just keep dreaming!!

actually, the japanese seem so good at getting high hp/l figures out of normally aspirated engines, i think they resort to turbocharging only as a LAST RESORT in the hp wars.

american and german engineers seem to need artificial boost as a FIRST resort. and they still get BARELY more hosses.

when honda and toyota DO resort to blowers, WATCH OUT!