Tough Love: Are We Really Subsidizing The Losers?

Of course we are 009.

Propping up companies like GM and Chrysler who have had failed business plans, lackluster management, and terrible union workers for decades is a horrendous idea. But we will continue to bailout the auto manufacturers just as we will bail out all the people who bought too much house hoping to flip it and who could never afford that mortgage to begin with.

We are living in a time where personal responsibility no longer exists.

Everyone needs to stop whining about GM and Chrysler. They can restructure and be fine. Plus, they actually produce something for the US as well as are firmly integrated into many other Us businesses.

AIG gets $150 BILLION from us and now is about to announce another $60 BILLION loss and we get nothing to show for it at the end.

"We are living in a time where personal responsibility no longer exists."

Agreed.

What got us into this whole mess is our own greed, laziness and lack of responsibility. That being said, it'd be irresponsible of us as a country to no help our own auto industry when the financial peril that they are currently in, is a result of poor Government/Financial institutuions. Had the government not pushed poor mortgage practices and had not de-regulated energy, the economy wouldnt have tanked and the Big3 would be going about their restructuring all by themselves (as they were doing). Intead.... we have this mess which is only being exaserbated by ignorant citizens, the media and our own government.

It is irresponsible of every american to go out and buy foreign transportation devices (see Toyota Camry/Honda Accord) when there are domestic vehicles of comparable/better value/build/economy/etc. Obviously this is America, so if you want that S-class... fine, no problem. All Im saying is we need to be patient and give OUR guys (the HOME TEAM) a chance.

For someone whose id is "Neutral", you always seem to be on the side of GM (along with your buddy UAW1). The financial institutions didn't tell GM to build SUVs/Trucks that get poor gas mileage when the price of gas was high. The financial institutions didn't tell GM management and UAW officials that we'll continue to pay all your insurance after you retire, along with your kids. The financial institutions didn't tell the BIG 3 to build carsthat weren't high quality. Senior auto management along with the union got themselves in this mess. Your analogy is like saying "handguns kill" (how about people who are irresponsible or criminals are the ones that kill, not the gun). Here is a great link that talks about retiring at 48 with 30 years and how the auto companies will continue to pay for the health insurance. Both management and union share the blame:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/hey-gm-can-i-retire-at-48-too.aspx

For someone who is going to most likely die from a stress induced heart attack, you seem to really be egging on your own demise. Why is it that you hate the Big3 so much? Why do you hate america?

Hey great, GKearns56 learned how to use Google to find an article that supports his viewpoints...HOORAY!! Glad to see you've mastered the art of searching for something on the internet, just like most 7yr olds.

Firstly, Wall St loved GM's big SUVs. The PUBLIC (yes you and I and our neighbors... or at least MY neighbors--- I don't consider you a neighbor since you've proven time and time again don't want American companies to succeed, you are no better than any enemy of USA) decided what GM should build, and in the face of all of it the US government decided not to have a solid energy policy. Quit your bitchy whining about SUVs. Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW and everyone else rushed their asses off to do the same. Grow up, those SUVs funded all the fancy R&D projects like the EV1, Prius, Volt, 2-mode, Duramax, materials sciences, etc.

By the way, since you are such a genius, take a wild guess why the 3800 OHV engine was in GM's lineup for so long? Guess what, GM wanted to phase it out in favor of DOHC engines but WALL ST & SHAREHOLDERS had a fit in 1999. So, GM held onto the thing, finally making vast improvements with AFM and VVT, etc etc. Either way, you seem to forget how economics/capitalism works.

Wall St. DEMANDED that GM built what it did. WHen GM was run by a bunch of penny pinching MBA's, we all saw what the results were (no one is going to argue that GM had great cars up until recently). Wagoner/Lutz were handed a disaster and told to make it all work. Quite frankly, everything was going very well until your friends on wall st / WashingtonDC f***ed it all up.

I, my friend, am a STAUNCH gun advocate. I believe that there should be next to NO gun laws, just background checks. No absurd gun/ammo taxes, no lawsuits against manufacturers, etc. I believe in PERSONAL responsibility. I (unlike you), feel personally responsible for the well being of MY country. If I have to buy an everyday car, I will be buying AMERICAN (not japanese cars assembled here, those are japanese). If I strike it rich and want an exotic sports car/luxury car, I will buy European or American, but I ALWAYS will have a domestic in my stable.

Why do you hate so much? You are probably the same type of guy who is out there all pissed off about sending all that money to OPEC (as am I), but has no qualms against sending money/technology/engineering/manufacturing to Japan/Korea/China. Shame on you, here the Big3 have pumped trillions of dollars into the US economy, and at the first sign of trouble, despite all the massive turnaround the Big3 have done, you and people like you wish their deaths. Next time we go to war, your family/friends can go to the front with no tanks/planes/weapons. Don't complain when none of them come back and you are b

And for the record, I have had japanese & Chrysler, and I currently have a GM & old MB. Don't tell me about quality/fuel economy/style.

Buy American and Made in USA isn't what it used to be. If unions and government keep raising the cost of goods made, while customer are looking to spend least amount of money, we might never get out of this mess.

It's your pick.

1) Support CEOs and companies by purchasing foreign made US Brand or goods that are made from mostly imported parts.

or

2) Support workers by purchasing US made goods that are foreign brands.

Choose your poison.

Mr. mercedes (2001W210),

Tell me, how much of Toyota's development is in the USA? How about their their HQ's? When Toyota prospers, where does its money go? Sure, some comes here, but in the end, they are Japanese. you can talk all you want and pretend that the big3 import everything they build, but thats not true at all.

You are silly to judge a car by the CEO of its company. Do you not go to Starbucks because you don't like their CEO? Do you not buy gas from BP because you don't like their CEO?

Come one now. Enough with the media rhetoric bullshit. So many people think that the auto industry is just some CEOs and factory workers. how about the armies of engineers, designers, businessmen, advertisers, etc.


On a different note, do you own a W210? nice car, but dad's had piston ring issues b/c merc told people they didnt need to change the oil except for every 10,000 miles. The only thing Merc didnt say was that you had to use synthetic oil, so by the time we got it used (like 70,000 miles), we had to use an oil detergent to help fix the issue.

Did you ever experience this?

By the way Gkearns, your link has a big title about retirement at 48, but only has a few, under-explained sentences about it. Reality is, GM doesnt want to keep workers after 30 yrs, and as a part of restructuring is trying to get younger (cheaper) workers by phasing out older workers.

Nice try, next time read the bullshit links you post.

Gosh, you make it so easy. You say "The financial institutions didn't tell GM to build SUVs/Trucks that get poor gas mileage when the price of gas was high. "

So obviously, you have NO IDEA of the lifecycle / development of a vehicle. You must be one of those dingleberries who thinks that GM can turn a switch and POOF, there's the wonder cars of tomorrow. You can thank your government for being too chicken-shit to tax gas for this BS. They didn't tax gas, and ALL automakers had to jump on the SUV bandwagon to remain competitive.

It's this thing called a "market". Businesses "supply" market "demands".

Let me know if you need help understanding this.

I understand your point of view and Cadillac is probably my first stop to give them a chance to win me over with their offerings when my lease is up. But my point of view and the sad reality is automakers and other company's upper managements are forced to cut the cost while they maintain the profit. And only logical way to do this is going to Mexico/Canada or oversea to manufacture their good. America can not compete with other countries that pay 1/2, 1/4 or even 1/8 of what people are getting paid here in US. By going overseas to produce is logical ways of keeping CEOs, share holders happy and customers happy with low prices, while American work force continues to suffer. So just buying US brand may not be good answer here. If you really want to help, I think investing more time to research for where the product is being made and what percentage of parts are produced made here in US.


On My 2001W210...

I moved on to 2006W211 but I still have 2001W210 for sentimental value. I always dreamt about getting a Benz in 20s and I got my first proper Benz at the age of 29. Even though my fiance drives it now, I am planning to return my W211 buy my future wife other car and drive W210 until it dies.

About oil....
Some may disagree but many have told me to use Mercedes Benz approved oils only. So I am using Mobil 1 0W-40 on regular schedule, it doesn't cost that much more so I figured why not. Some say Mobil 1 5W-30 is approved for W210 Engines too, but I've been using 0W-40 after my warranty ran out. Last time i checked my W210 is at little over 120k miles and it still drives like brand new. Of course I did my part of keeping it maintained. Like changing so called 'life time transmission fluid' with new Mercedes Benz transmission fluid, coolant, brake fluid, power steering fluid, differential oils, and fuel filter and so on. So try to fellow Mercedes approved spec. It might cost just a little bit more, but it kept me out of unnecessary headaches.

2001W210,

In any event, make sure to use the correct oils, and change them very regularly. The 3.2L is not too forgiving (at least from personal experience and others' experiences).

I wholly understand the idea that there will most likely be less than 3 major detroit automakers, no one is dillusional here. Quite frankly, I'd like to see Chrysler merge with Hyundai or get acquired by GM.

Other countries subsidize their industries left & right. There's nothing wrong with helping the home team, especially during times like these. If tomorrow Toyota/Nissan went to the Japanese Gov and asked for help, I wouldn't give a rat's ass, it's their country and their industry.

Im not telling anyone that they HAVE to buy anything. Im saying if you are going to buy some everyday transportation device (honda accord, Camry, Sonata), just give a serious, un-biased look at Detroit's offerings. We've listened to so many ignorant people in the media about how their 1981 Chevy was a POS. Great, so were all hyundais up until 3 years ago, now look how everyone loves hyundai. Talk about BS.

We haven't been able to tell any nation what to do about their auto industry, pretty much ever. Like we can go to China/Japan/Korea and tell them what to do, yea..... like they really give a shit about what the US has to say. What I do know is that after WWII, the US government pushed japanese steel onto US manufacturers (especially Chrysler) to help get Japan's economy up & running. What I do know is that Japan forced out US auto companies, as did Korea.

My big this is long term outlook. Do we really want there not to be GM & Ford 10 years from now? Would we be better off? let me answer that for you, NO. It's bad enough that we gave away our electronics, textile, energy, (insert everything here) industries. One of the biggest enablers of this damn recession is the past few decades, all we've wanted was quick money, no R&D, no hard work, outsource to Asia, screw america, etc, etc etc. NO MORE OF THIS BS.

I want OUR industry to prosper, especially since they've been making great products the past few years that compete with or surpass their Asian counterparts. Im pissed that every chance the asshole politicians of ours get, they keep pushing this non-green myth about our industry.

Those jerkoffs we call congress are the biggest problem to the Big3. how many sales did the Big3 loose as a result of an ignorant and uninformed congress in Nov/Dec/Jan? I'll be willing to bet it's in the hundreds of thousands.... then they bitch at GM for not being profitable.

Talk about using Detroit as the whipping boy for Washington & Wall St's failures.

In the end are we subsidizing the UNION?
Buy what you want. You worked hard for that money.
Japs and Germs make cars here providing work for American workers.
Big 3 makes car over-seas and sells them over-seas - should those countries boycott US car companies?

Sure buy what you want, but don't complain when we don't have our own industry and the tangible/intangibles associated with it.

No one is saying we should have a gov-sponsored ban on japanese cars, but the way it is, there is a defacto embargo on domestics. The media's portrayal of the Big3 is ridiculous and has cost the Big3 hundreds of thousands of sales, making the problem even worse.

Hey neutral (aka Bias): It didn't take much to find this article you fool. It was MSN's main story line for yesterday website. If you read carefully and wouldn't be so "bias", maybe you could interrupt (unless that's beyond your comprehension level) what they were trying to convey in the article. The basis of the article was how the UAW retirement AND Management have created this monster of a problem collectively. Seems to me you should change your id to bias or whiner because you always complaining about people who buy foreign. You complain about everyone NOT buying American when you know jack about car companies. We own both foreign & domestic vehicles - a BMW & Audi and two American classic cars restored. So the next time you start pitching your sob story how we all hate the Big 3, check yourself. Maybe it's YOU who isn't so "neutral" about people who buy foreign! What a goof!!

I know jack shit eh...

I do more with cars (from a technical aspect) on any single day than you've done in your whole life.

Come back to me when you REALLY want to talk about what makes a car.

Why doesn't this site ban bloggers like UAW1, Neutral, & Michael Taylor. Anyone who disagrees with them about their UAW members is "wrong"; they pull numbers simply made up and call people who own American cars; I had immediate family members that worked 32 plus years for Ford/GM on the line, "Big 3 haters".

"Bailing out the losers is not how we got rich as a country, and it is not how we’ll get out of this crisis." I am only 42 but I don't remember us getting rich by us importing all of our goods either. Last time I checked (and I read alot) it was through innovation and good old American ingenuity. I know that its a free speech country but folks like this make me sick (the Arthur). In my life time I have seen so many companies fire and lay off folks and ship there jobs to _______(inject foreign country here)and the ceo's and owners got rich.

If they restructure they can still come out of this smaller but better, but we are spending the money of are children and prob grandchildren if this does not stop cars are gonna be the last thing you have to worry about.When there is no food in the fridge and no roof over your head because we broke the USA on failed companies and Socialist ideas.My advice to everyone CASH,GUNS.LOTS OF AMMO.