Toyota GM Says No More "Spiritual Cars" For Now, Focus Needs To Be On Hybrids

Only the title was misleading ref the spiritual comment. In the context of the article it made perfect sense.

That said, it did make me open and read a thread about hybrids - a subject I really couldn't care less about (at least not in any positive way). As a UK consumer, hybrids really don't make any sense and represent a hypocritical marketing-hype generating falicy. The majority of equivalent sized diesels in the UK are cheaper, more frugal and less damaging to the environment - especially in terms of production, transportation and recyling factors.

Still, in a market where diesel has never been popular, I can see why they'd be important to the future (at least short term) of automotive development in the US.

Which is an excellent move. Lot's of people don't realize how elegant and efficient solution hybrids are.


If we calculate all the energy a car needs to move along (so called well-to-wheel efficiency), considering:

- different energy densities of various fuel (diesel and petrol, for instance) [1]

- and that, at least in Europe, it takes more energy to produce a unit of energy in form of diesel than in petrol [2]

hybrids prove to be by far the most energy efficient way of use a car as long as we talk about internal combustion. Only diesel hybrids that will appear someday on the market will be more on less on par with gas hybrids in term of well-to-wheel efficiency.


Then comes the design simplicity of hybrids. These vehicles are called complex but:

- small ones have the simplest gearboxes in the world, consisting of just a set of planetary gears yet mimicking a proper continuously variable transmission while being very cheap to build;

- since the engine is reinforced with electric "boost", it can run the more efficient and less powerful Atkinson cycle. This has the same effect as in case of downsizing only one does not need any form of forced induction, just a fixed specific valve timing which is much cheaper;

- cause the engine runs on petrol, it does not require expensive particulate filters and NOx reduction catalysts to meet stringent emission regulations;

- the mentioned electric boost allows to use more reliable, less polluting, less powerful and cheaper port injection instead of direct one;

- the electric boost allows cars like the Lexus GS450h with a 3.5 V6 engine to post better in-gear acceleration times (crucial for passing, lane changing) than its 5-liter V8 competitors [3]; that the Lexus RX450h is much faster both in-gear as well as from the start than comparable diesels is also a natural consequence of its design [4]

- regenerative braking and smooth, non-abrupt power delivery of hybrids prolongs brakes, tires and suspension lifetime

- hybrids minimize pollution in cities - areas where population density is the highest and so are health risks


As explained above, there are lots of aspects allowing hybrids to be durable and save money for batteries, motors and generators those cars need to have installed. Considering them complex and unreliable is a misconception. What's complex and unreliable in an electric motor, an inverter, a battery, a simple engine, a simple gearbox or a bundle of wiring?

As far as environmental impact is concerned, the only "study" claiming Prius does more damage than a Hummer was considered a scam [5]. Obviously, the "researcher" who authored it never allowed any peer review nor explained methods used. In previous comments I also provided peer-reviewed references that building and recycling a car consumes amount of energy minuscule when compared to energy it consumes when in service.

What's more, hybrids are just at the start of the way to their goal. Over time,

your evidently well informed - and I take on board your points, thanks.

Quick question for you in light of the observations you make above: How well do hybrids stack up in the green stakes when you have to factor in the global transportation of the components - specifically the batteries - when the main transport methods will be via sea/air, all of which use fossil fuels. Noting also, to the best of my knowledge, that no manufacturer of hybrid vehicles yet produces and sources all the materials from one global location?

I think the argument of Hybrids vs Diesel kind of misses the point. Diesels are probably going to prevail for intercity and distance travel, while Hybrids are great for stop and go commuting. Instead of going for one "out of the ball park" revolution, I bet we can meet most needs, with development of things already around, even adding pure electrics for some needs.

The argument about the energy cost of making hybrids is interesting, as you do have to add a second powertrain, but I doubt the energy cost is much worse than an air conditioner or a FWD system. The transportation issue is a bit bogus. It assumes that international outsourcing of major components is unique to hybrids. when a "British" car may have a Brazilian engine, and a truck made in the USA may have imported body panels. Many US and European cars have interiors entirely made in Colombia.

If you're going to argue energy cost of manufacture, you should just abandon automobile manufacture in Japan, probably the least energy efficient location in the world to make cars: no energy, no natural resources, EVERYTHING is imported.

[...] capacity of their batteries will grow and so will the all-electric range. Series by series, we will need less and less crude oil-derived fuel to power cars. Unlike biofuels which have very low Energy Returned On Energy Invested (EROEI) indicator between 1.2 - 2 (which makes them economically nonviable), generating electricity by means of hydroelectric power stations, windmills or biogas combusted in a combined-cycle power plant works and is really clean. Fossil resources for electricity generation are also spread around the world, no in the Middle East only. Thus, electrification of cars is a good direction to head in.

All of what's above is well known to Toyota engineers and makes clear why they have gone this way. German carmakers start offering hybrids too. Future of internal combustion, before it becomes extinct, a niche technology and is replaced by plug-in hybrids, will be the hybridization of both petrol and diesel cars.

Europe and the USA need to catch up with hybrids as quickly as possible.

Some French researchers claim hybrids profitability is questionable. Well, an example of automotive technology that failed to hit the mainstream is the Wankel rotary engine in Mazda roadsters. Over the years (25, to be precise), it remained limited to a single model. Meanwhile, in 1998, there was only one hybrid, the Prius I. Now, just 11 years later, Toyota themselves (and they rather now how to sell cars, don't they?) offer seven and announce further extensions. Conclude on your own.


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[1] Emission Facts: Average Carbon Dioxide Emissions Resulting from Gasoline and Diesel Fuel: http://www.epa.gov/OMS/climate/420f05001.htm

[2] Page 60, figure 4.2-1 and 4.2-2 from R. Edwards et all, "WELL-TO-WHEELS ANALYSIS OF FUTURE AUTOMOTIVE FUELS AND POWERTRAINS IN THE EUROPEAN CONTEXT", 2006: http://www.co2star.eu/publications/Well_to_Tank_Report_EU.pdf

[3] http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/sedans/2007_bmw_550i_vs_infiniti_m45_lexus_gs450h_m_b_e550_comparison_test/2007_lexus_gs450h_comparison_test

[4] http://www.trucktrend.com/roadtests/suv/163_0904_diesel_hybrid_suv_comparison/specs.html

[5] http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/03/08/hummer-vs-prius-redux-this-time-to-hummer-i-dont-think-so/

Building Hybrids is fine
Just build another Supra, to balance out your portfolio, k?
By the time it gets here, people will be able to buy it
DarkPheonix

utter paff and piddle.

Diesels are not a low cost high profit solution! They make the most sense to high mileage users - not city dwellers. The mode of choice for a city driver is a very small and lightweight petrol powered car - another choice not embraced by US consumers.

excellent - well reasoned and bang on.