Life In The Fast Lane: 2010 Dodge Viper ACR Already Lays Waste To LFA Nürburgring Lap Record

It makes more power and nearly 200% more torque. It produces more down force and has race spec barely street legal tires and it could only muster 2 sec faster time. Oh and the LFA costs that much because its their first supercar with the expensive materials used and they did an excellent job considering that economy/Lux economy cars are their forte.

"So Bill, where can one got to buy a new FIAT Viper like the one tested"

- From the same place where you can get a TOYOTA LF-A Nurburgring Edition. Answer? Nowhere.

Veyron, since when is power/torque a bad thing? :)

Also, what race spec are those tyres made for? As far as I'm concerned, they are street legal, and sold on the vehicle. Why buy a performance vehicle if the manufacturer puts shitty tyres on it?

Veyron,,, Another bunch of weeeek excuses. Over 100k less technology and toy got there ass beat plain and simple. Street legal or not it's about technology. Rock on Mother Mopar!

Not complaining at all. Its that the time isnt impressive with all the advantages the viper has. Equip the LFA with the same tires and the Lfa will net a much faster time. The torque should have helped the Viper dominate the last half of the track with a lot of 2-4 gear changes and elevation but it didnt.

Veyron, torque doesn't matter on a track, where a viper will be in 3rd, a lfa will simply be in second since it revs higher and any torque advantage the viper had will be negligible.

Exactly! Torque has nothing to do with anything because your gear ratios make up the difference, 500hp is will put out the same amount of force at the wheels at any given speed no matter what ratios are!

The ACR-X posted an even quicker 7:03

It isnt street legal.

A truck that's faster than Toyota's SPORTS CAR.

Badgewhore2 you bonehead. The viper V10 has nothing to do with the truck engine.

I have a V10 Ram and believe me, It's sound nothing like a viper and my truck doesn't shake.

Hilarious! Wait for the 2013 model-year Viper toyoduh fans!

Neither is the LF-A Nurburgring edition

Show me where they are being sold? Links.

So where can I buy one from?

Will the production LF-A have a roll cage? It isn't the same.

The roll cage probably shaved off half a second. But the question it does raise is how stock is the vehicle? Somebody spent the time and effort designing/installing a roll cage, what other changes could they have made in addition to it in the process? These questions simply aren't asked if a vehicle is bought right off the lot with no visual cues as to their modifications.

By installing a roll cage you stiffen the vehicles body, this stiffer body allows the suspension geometry to work as intended and gives better/more accurate and reliable camber angles through out the entire track. The added weight will slow it down a little so this added performance gain isn't a major improvement, but it is still a net gain.

You're wasting your time Joe. This guy knows nothing about cars. Not surprised that he's a Toyota fan.

I should have said these guys (PatriotNation and 1911). The fact that they didn't know that a Roll Cage improves handling speaks volumes. What a bunch of no nothings.

Are you trying to say that this roll cage didn't help improve chassis stiffness? lol, the LFA chassis is not infinitely stiff! Any interior structure that is added to the LFA no matter how poorly designed will only increase the chassis stiffness, even if this is unintentional.

a "lack of car knowledge" isn't why we are being deboosted. I've posted dozens of articles explaining how vehicles work and yet I'm still being deboosted. As to your modifications for safety, that is a very weak argument, you could also argue that stripping the car will reduce the chance of bits of the car hitting you in case of an accident, or that stickier tyres will help keep the car on the road and thus not in an accident!

it is, and better yet its a 2010 Viper production model which beat a 2011 LFA at a fraction of the cost.

the facts are these, the Viper has the new record for PRODUCTION CAR and it did it with a year old model against a 2012 LFA (according to when this car will be sold) at a fraction of the cost.

What you people define as "production", is irrelevant.

"there are literally dozens of posts of yours where you were outright trashed by other posters for your lack of car knowledge hence your constant deboosting." - PatriotNation


- Show me one of those posts. Provide a link. And stop talking nonsense.

"Start with any of the LF-A ones where you ended up in tears before whining incessantly that it didn't really happen."

-What the hell are you talking about? Specifics please. How was my car knowledge "trashed"? Provide a link or shut the hell up. And what does hating on the LF-A have to do with car knowledge?

De-boosts mean nothing when the people who are doing the deboosting are idiots (car dumb Toyota/Lexus fans). And you act like you've never been de-boosted. Puh-leeze

"It's not a current prodcution car" (an improved version is coming)
"It's a truck" (Still a faster truck than any Toyota sports car)
"It has a cheap interior" (Take the $300,000 you saved and replace the racing seats with a Chippendale sofa)

Whaa Whaa Whaa

LOL!

How long did the Toyota LF-A's lap time record last? 1-week? LOL!!!

Questioning if the cars were modified is the same as questioning football players if they are on steroids. Until independent tests are done with showroom models, then it’s all a farce. It’s just that the Toyota fans think different. They see it as a victory even though the car was heavily messaged (and wasn't a showroom model).

Did Toyota... Umm Lexus mention the Roll-Cage? And do you agree about independent testing? Every manufacturer that goes out there "tips the scales". Why do you think that Toyota is any different?

"I already posted the link FROM LEXUS CORP. stating this."


- Did they mention the Roll-Cage? Doubt it.

Does the production car have a Roll-Cage? And you said that the car that set the record, and the production cars are the same. How are they the same when one has a Roll-Cage and and the production car doesn't have Roll Cage?. Explain please. How are they the same? You're the one who's full of FAIL.

"How are they the same when one has a Roll-Cage and and the production car doesn't have Roll Cage?. Explain please. How are they the same? "

You are avoiding that question like the plague. LOL!!!

Nah dude. I'm not all over it. Both cars were modified. But only one company had the faster car. And it wasn't Toyota. LOL! I hope you enjoyed your week of triumph. LOL!!!

That even makes it worse. A discontinued car beats out a brand new car. And since when does a car not being currently in production makes its lap time not valid? Get a Clue.

PatriotNation,,, Your comments are laughable.

LexSux,,, where in hell is it said the the Viper is Disscontinued?

PatriotNation,, We did offer it to the general public for the Viper Series and sold out. The mods we made were limited and can be done by anyone. We Win!

PN. You sound like an intelligent guy so this should be easy for you to understand. Dodge announced plans to stop production Of That Generation of Viper. Rumors went wild that Viper may be no longer and that is just what it was "A Rumor". I have very strong ties to SRT and I can tell you there has always been a next generation in the works. In fact, the chassis that the SRT engineers devloped is now under the SLS Merc. BTW, prove to ME where there is a lack of buyer interest for Viper.

Your comment eluded to the fact that Viper was to be discontinued due to lack of buyer interest meaning Joe Public, not to be sold to another car co. My comment refered to Viper sales. And to end my comments on this subject, My point has always been the Fact that a vehicle like Viper with lack of sophistication can can kick ass on vehicles that cost twice as much. Going back to the days of the AC Cobra beating Ferrari.

angryinch1, I agree, That is my point exactly.

The funny thing is, the LFA has the worst fuel economy :)

LFA (non nurburgring edition, therefore the most fuel efficient version?)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2012&make=Lexus&model=LFA&hiddenField=Findacar
11mpg city, 16mpg hwy

Viper ACR
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2010&make=Dodge&model=Viper%20Coupe&hiddenField=Findacar
13mpg city, 22mpg hwy

Viper truck engine better fuel economy than the LF-A's super refined engine? LOL!!!! All all you'll get are de-boosts because the LF-A cannot be seen in a negative light. It's fans wont allow it. To hell with facts.

The lfa needs the aggressive gearing to make up for its lack of torque!

badgewhore, was it you? or one of the other toyota goons that was bragging that the LFA was going to get over 30mpg hwy and around 25mpg city?

1911, torque doesn't matter in terms of performance simply because the gear ratios will make up for any lack in torque. I'm honestly not flip flopping, you simply don't know very much about how cars work!

5 times eh? I think you need to learn how to count. I stated once that it doesn't matter because gear ratios make up the difference, I stated again that the lfa uses a more agressive gear ratio to make up that difference, and the third, and this fourth response was in reply to your statements lol.

As to the emissions, they are in the link I provided for fuel economy numbers

Simply put.

LFA- 15.5 tons of CO2 annually
Viper- 11.6 tons of CO2 annually

I have no idea what you're talking about, CO2 is the best way to measure emissions, the more CO2 your car puts out the more of every other greenhouse gas it will produce.

Why don't you post some links?

1911, you're all bark and no bite, without posting links to show that the viper puts out more "dangerous" greenhouse gasses, your argument holds no water. Once again, I have no idea where to source that detailed information about the viper and lfa without actually going out and testing the vehicles first hand. Once again, the best measure we have is overall CO2 output since the amount of CO2 a car produces is directly proportional to the other greenhouse gasses it makes.

In other words, back up your name calling or your argument is nothing more then a hissy fit.

Emissions was originally brought up by 1911 stating that the viper couldn't be sold now because it would fail emissions requirements, I've been merely proving him wrong by showing him that the LFA emits 34% more emissions then the viper.

according to 1911 posting the EPA emission ratings for both the LFA and Viper is considered going off on a tangent lol! Here I'll repost it in case you missed it.

LFA- 15.5 tons of CO2 annually
Viper- 11.6 tons of CO2 annually

lol 1911 thinks that tons of CO2 is a measure of fuel economy :) silly 1911 that's what mpg is used for.

btw, there is a lot more on those pages then fuel economy scores. i.e. the emissions of both vehicles ;)

Angryinch do you believe that tons of CO2 per year is a fuel economy measure?

Having an engine that doesn't run excessively rich and produce excessive amounts of pollution, to the point that it bests this lower powered engine with nearly half the displacement.

it also operates in a lower rev range which also reduces engine friction, and allows for more complete combustion due to flame path speeds.

where did I state this? My you and angryinch are good at spinning... not!

You asked for a reason why the Viper has reduced emissions, I told you why.

I'm tired of playing the deffensive argument, I'm going to attack your argument.

LOL you think that the LFA has better emissions even though all evidence provided thus far have proved everything but. You also think that CO2 emissions are a measurement of fuel economy, and that roll cages don't add to performance, and that "safety" roll cages don't increase chassis stiffness.

Furthermore, it seems as though your entire participation in this argument was in thinking of ways to take what I said out of context and make me "appear" wrong. Appear being the key word.

You're a troll 1911, and I can't believe I got lured into your trap. Shame on me for being so blind and wasting my time. Do you want a cookie now?

JATO stands for Jet Assisted Take Off. They are basically rocket packs strapped to the rear of a C-130 Hercules Military cargo plane to make it take off on a super short runway. I'm talking about a quarter mile or so if I am not mistaken. This video is an example although they didn't use them until the plot pulled up to climb fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97rSobuKBxI

During the origonal lap record the rev limiter was set lower. If you watch the video in the straights there was many seconds when the limiter was peaked. This time the limiter was set higher. The first driver claimed setting the limiter lower kept him from going to deep in the corners. I'm not saying this is the only reason, what I'm saying is this is the one that contributed the most.

Children lol. I get deboosted for providing factual information.

What kind of Patriot is Patriotnation.You belong in Japan with Huu.

Like I've said before the unverified times are useless, how long before someone claims a time of 7:09?

Face it Toyota Fans you got your ass haded to ya again. You can make all the excuses you want but MOPAR does it again.

BD-MB Thats the best comment you have? HAHAHAHA :) Again, Toy got there ass beat.

Hey facts are facts, Viper got beat. But I could not get over the $300,000.00 price tag. The LFA costing another $150K it should have been quicker. But That didn't last long.

The LFA didnt used grooved race slicks.

Hey Veyron, Give ME a Break! Maybe that extra $150,000.00 of Technology in the LFA would have made up for the lack of Groves Slicks!

Just so you know, I cracked a smile at a lot of these comments this morning. It was about 11 months ago when the last Viper shipped to a dealer, but now "it's an Edsel",lol. Any enthusiast with half a brain knows a new model is coming for 2013, which will only be BETTER than the 2010 model that just topped a $400,000 car.

Many of you guys remind me of my 87-year-old grandfather. I had a chance to show him an ACR coupe last year, and his comments ranged from "This car costs $100,000 and the seats are so hard to get in and out? My Grand Marquis was a lot easier, with more room inside."

But you see, those comments are kinda funny because they're from an 87-year-old man. You guys are supposed to be car enthusiasts and you're bitching the engine isn't as smooth and quiet as a flathead straight-8 Packard.

You see, what you don't understand (or aren't willing to admit) is that this car puts stuff that costs 3-5 times as much back on the trailer, and (as was mentioned) gets better fuel economy doing it! Do you know that this "truck engined", 50-state-legal Viper meets tougher emission standards than plenty of exotica that cannot be sold in the US? At the same time, Europe keeps the car off the continent because of its "dangerous" side exhaust. Laughable!

BTW, the difference between the non-street legal ACR-X and the regular ACR is mostly things that are left off the car, (Catalysts, interior trim, side windows) not added (window nets, roll cage, headers). In theory, you could buy a regular ACR, sell the trim parts and use the money to buy the "X" parts like headers, computer, and stickier tires.

So keep the comments coming, they're pretty amusing!

There have been spy pictures of a test mule... and an investors meeting that gave it the green light.

You could trick out a honda, but that wouldn't make it a production car.

The LFA puts out more emissions then the Viper :)

I've already provided the EPA links which you have disregarded. If you want car vs car specific NOX emissions go out and find me a link or test them yourself.

LFA- 15.5 tons of CO2 annually
Viper- 11.6 tons of CO2 annually

15.5 is approximately 34% greater than 11.6 :)

LFA
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2012&make=Lexus&model=LFA&hiddenField=Findacar

Viper ACR
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2010&make=Dodge&model=Viper%20Coupe&hiddenField=Findacar

Are you happy? I now posted these EPA links twice now.

I've already stated that CO2 output is directly proportional to NOX emissions. Why don't you provide me a link to show the LFA with lower NOX emissions if you're so adamant that the Viper is worse?

1911, you still haven't provided any links as to the LFA having superior emissions. Unless you can prove this point, it's safest to assume both cars have relatively equal catalytic converters, technically, if both had identical catalytic converters the viper would still win since the cat would have less emissions to process. You're assuming that the LFA is superior, therefore it has better emission control features, you simply can't assume this, you have to prove it if you're willing to use it as a point to your argument.

Until then, tons of CO2 per year remains the best yet mentioned measure. I'm still waiting for your NOX emissions link :)

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/environmental/200611CO2globalwarming.html

:)

2013 Viper has been officially confirmed (don't have time to waste finding links for you, google it yourself).

Not aware of any changes that would make it pass 2010 MY and fail 2012, but keep trying haters ;-). The only reason the car wasn't built in 2011 MY is because of the stability control mandate, which is idiotic on a true sports car, but will be offered for 2013.

I'd love to see the $40,000 Honduh that beats a Viper in a striaght line, or in Nurburgring, but I get your point... Cost arguments are silly most of the time. As Adam Corolla says, "I can offer you 10 $100,000 houses or one mansion."

However... You've introduced the idea of refinement, which involves cost. Viper isn't offered as a model of refinement; quite the opposite. The loyal owner following doesn't want cupholders, and an ACR Viper isn't the kind of car a boyfriend buys for Paris Hilton (like the Lexus).

It just happens to be "a car" that's faster in a straight line, or around a track, than the best Toyota can offer.

"And yet that wasn't true last year. You honestly think that Toyota would simply sit on their hands stating "gee, we can't beat this Viper no matter what"? Of course they could, whether they want to is another question."

---------

Last year? Toyota only had the record for a week or so.

And "They could beat them if they wanted to" !?!? Well, my dad can beat yours up.

In other words, you're now officially offering nonsense as an argument.

Excellent response Bill!

The LFA is a stock production car and the Viper is pretty much a race prepped car and had a team of engineers to tweak and tune it. It should have been faster, but only 2 seconds faster than a production car aith barely more than half the engine and the vipers power advantage and having a team like that is not impressive.

The viper is a crude dinosaur, the LFA is a refined hyper exotic with crazy technology. They are two different machines. The LFA is far more luxurious which explains its relatively high weight for a car with so much carbon fiber. Hats of To Chrysler for being able to whoop on a car with a naturally aspirated engine half the size, smaller tires and more weight per horsepower. Now design a 4.8l engine that makes that kind of power. They can't do it and make it reliable which is why Americans rely on big giant V8 engines because a naturally aspirated high tech engines with high power to cubic inch would be very unreliable if it was made by any of the big 3. So you beat a luxury GT car with a race car. What an accomplishment. You must be very proud. Strip all the luxury out of the LFA and it would smoke the viper without any mods. Americans can't do sophistication luxury and performance as wel as the germans and japs. Well, the CTS-V is an exception but once again needed a larger engine with forced induction and relies on raw hp to get the job done.

The LFA is a white elephant, it's bespoke carbon chassis and v10 that weighs as much as a v6 still weighs as much as this non carbon chassis 8.4L v10 powered car. Luxurious? My ass, what luxury amenities does it have? Power seats? nope, sat nav? nope, entertainment screen? nope. At the end of the day, Lexus made a bare bones track car (nurb package) that gets worse economy, less power, weighs just as much, more emissions, and is slower around a track.

85bmw745i,,, You said the LFA is a "stock production car"? Yea a $300,000.00 stock production car and again it got is ass beat by a car at half the cost. I could by 2 Vipers and give one to my buddy and we both could kick ass on an LFA. You Toyota fans have been touting the LFA for years of how exotic it is and all the tech advantages it has and I agree, I has all of that, but your reasoning of why it got beat by the Viper is a bunch of excuses. Suck it up!

The reason it cost so much is the amount of research and development that wne into it, especially the engine. Dodge took a truck engine and put better flowing heads on it. This engine is a high tech marvel. not to mention the luxury and amenities that went in it. Really these two cars aren't even in the same league. Win or no win. I applaud the viper for such a feat despite its "disadvantage at being race prepped, lighter due to being bare bones, and having an engine nearly twice the size. With those specs the LF-A should have never been able to beat it the first time. 8.4 litres vs 4.8 in a heavier car, quite impressive that the viper was race prepped yet could only muster a 2 second win over a course the size of the Nurbrgring. There was no race team prepping the LF-A. I'd have to be impressed by the LF-A for being able to stay 2 seconds within a race prepped car with a much larger engine, race tires and being prepped by a race team. It took all of that to win by only 2 seconds. lol.

I'm not upset about the vipers assisted victory because I am not a fan of Lexus or Dodge, so it really doesn't matter to me who wins.

"There was no race team prepping the LF-A"

So the years of developing a track specific Nurburgring Edition is outweighed by one weekend of factory capable adjustments? I would say that it is the LFA that is at the unfair advantage. The LFA has a v10 that weighs as much as a v6, the LFA has the special carbon chassis, the LFA has already had all of its tuning set for the course by an untold numbers of engineers.

Also, you mention luxury amenities weighing it down? Can you list all of the amenities you speak of? Would they fit in a bucket? Would that bucket weigh under 15 lbs? Yes, yes it would.

85bmw745i,, Again I need to set the recors straight. The V10 in the viper has NOTHING to do with the truck engine. NOTHING is interchangeable. It was developed by Lamborgini when Chrysler owned them. McLaren upgraded the cylinder heads during the Diamler Years.

Actually they started off as the same engine. The V10 was offered in the truck tuned down to 300 hp and tuned for more torque. The two engines share a common basis which is the 8.0 liter block, but the Viper version has better heads and other internal upgrades and different tuning. It later was bored and stroked until it reached its current 8.4l displacement. Do you think it is coincidence they both were 8.0 litres. I worked as a mechanic and trust me they were the same engine, just like the 5.0 in the new F150 is the same engine as the Mustang, however it was modified for use in a truck. Tuning was adjusted for more low RPM torque and upgraded for heavier duty use in a pickup.

85bmw745i,,. The fact that they are both have 8Litres means nothing. And I understand that blogers on this site don't know who I am and thats OK. Just so you know the engines share nothing. Try and fit a Viper crank in a truck block and let me know how that works. lambo did the viper V10 and Roush did the truck V10.

Great read!

Grow up ladies, it amazes me how all you jokers will stand behind a vehicle you cannot HOPE to possibly afford to own yet trash one that is far more attainable and is produced in your own country (well most of you anyway) My hat goes off to billfrombuckhead, bfghemicuda, 1c3am5, and joelimon for not being afraid to celebrate an AMERICAN made automobiles' accomplishment. Go ahead and de-boost me...I wont cry.

TM 440, Thanks

JATO stands for Jet Assisted Take Off. They are basically rocket packs strapped to the rear of a C-130 Hercules Military cargo plane to make it take off on a super short runway. I'm talking about a quarter mile or so if I am not mistaken. This video is an example although they didn't use them until the plot pulled up to climb fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97rSobuKBxI

Not to mention the Viper is hella fugly and the name is cheesy.... but so are most Mopar rednecks - hey Billy boi.

And they needed a race team to do it. What happened to taking stock production cars to the track and let the cars do the talk. You can't modify a Honda Civic to be faster than a mustang then talk crap and dog the mustang and claim the civic is superior on the track.

The viper comes with adjustable bits and these are whats modified. It's not like they went out and put even $1 of extra parts on the car to make it faster... the same can't be said for the LFA which clearly had at least a roll cage installed. Further, if the civic came with adjustable bits it still wouldn't be faster then a mustang.

The outside performance company didn't add anything to the viper, but you can't say the same about the LFA, even you admit that the roll cage would help. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the LFA with the nurburgring package included a bunch of tuneable bits as well.

The "in-house" production model isn't a production model since well you can't buy the car as it was raced. It was modified for the race that fact isn't debatable. What is debatable is whether the car received any other "upgrades" in the process that Lexus is keeping hush hush about. For the sake of this argument, I'll ignore any potential upgrades since you can't prove that either way and adhere to the fact that the roll cage isn't stock and it does help the car thus invalidating your argument.

"the fact that the roll cage isn't stock and it does help the car thus invalidating your argument"

- Patriot Nation says that the car that set the record (temporary) is the same as the production car, which is a bunch of BS. Patriot Nation believes whatever Lexus Corp says. Lexus Corp says the "Roll-Cage is for safety”, so he believes it. Lexus says crap like that because they know they their fans aren’t smart enough to realize that the roll cage also improves performance. Lexus has been pulling off stuff like that for decades. That’s why Lexus fans are the dumbest among all car fans.

Imagine if this Viper engine included a direct injection and twin turbos, it would improve the power and economy and still beat Toyota and be better on fuel, it's great to have a much cheaper car than the competition beat some top vehicles, imagine what Toyota will do for next year, then Chevy,Dodge, soon our economy cars will be getting close to this...lol

Oh you mean the one where I was arguing against people stating that massive rear spoilers on fwd cars helps their performance? Do you also have trouble with free body diagrams?

Aerodynamics produce dynamic forces, these forces have every relevance to vehicle dynamics and free body diagrams.

lol, you like spinning arguments don't you?

The wind provides extra understeer to ensure high speed stability. My argument was that it degrades vehicle performance by increasing understeer. This drawing proves this :)

Trust me, car companies don't put wings on fwd cars to make them faster or have better performance.

wing*

spin spin spin! are you dizzy yet?

lol 1911, do you also believe that rear wings don't create understeer? If you do there is no point in continuing this argument :)

Wow... This is crazy.

Good work Joe! I think you schooled a lot of people here!